Some Mormons Search the Web and Find Doubt

[ADoyle90815]

because religion is an acceptable drug. look at the duggers They use religion to deny reality to have a constant happy life. the same reason people do drugs to escape from realty and try to dull the hurt. But religion can hook children far sooner then drugs do.

That's true about religion being an acceptable drug, as sometimes recovering alcoholics simply replace alcohol with religion. Sometimes, the children of alcoholics and addicts are often drawn to religion like Mormonism because the restrictions and control appeal the most to them. As for myself, I can say I thought my way out of Mormonism, as I would much rather use the brain I have and think for myself. I'm also able to chose my own underwear, and in the summer, I can feel comfortable in shorts and a tank top.

[fundamentalistnomore]

Thanks, BalconySmoker, for the very real side of what Mormonism does to families. I wanted to point some of that out, but my reply was already a novel. Incidentally, mormonism is a good business. You have to tithe 10% in order to get to the best part of the heaven. Once you get your sacred garments (underwear), you can only buy them from the church. How about the free labor from people called to serve in their ward?

[Widget]

I am just going to take your first argument. In the 1800s, marriage to young teens wasn't just uncommon - it was downright rare. Here's a link to a pro-Mormon analysis, which actually was attempting their very hardest to justify the young marriages:

http://www.fairblog.org/2010/02/01/19c- ... aganda-ii/

First, here is a graph I assume they made in Excel. I'm not sure where they got their numbers - they cite "USA Long Term Age Dependent Cumulative Marriage Rates"

From their own image, the percentage of women who were 14 years old at their first marriage were very tiny, well under 2%, even as far back as 1800. The 15 year olds were only a smidge more frequently married.

That site also has a table with a bunch of adjusted mean ages from 1880, even taking into account the various things they are doing to the mean to try and make it look good, only 2.1% of 14 year olds were married.

There's also good data showing most girls in the 19th century did not go through puberty until 15 or so. So these girls were quite likely to not only be young but prepubescent as well. If polygamy was for procreation there is absolutely no reason to marry prepubescent girls.

[PennySycamore]

Thanks, polabear, for sharing the information about teenage marriage rates in the 1800s. I knew that it was uncommon, but I didn't know quite where to find the information quickly.

I do know that the age of menarche (onset of menses) was much older than what it is now. The average age of menarche was 17 in Europe in 1850, but declined to age 13 by 1960.

[happy atheist]

Fact according to whom? Any Jew I've met doesn't know much of anything about the New Testament because they don't believe in it. I've talked to more than a few LDS members who openly admit that they've been taught more about the Book of Mormon and relatively little about the Bible in and of itself. Atheists, that I can buy.

I'd like to see some actually legit sources on this, not just your opinion.

This atheist knows nothing about the bible. :shrug:

[Mama Mia]

Thanks, polabear, for sharing the information about teenage marriage rates in the 1800s. I knew that it was uncommon, but I didn't know quite where to find the information quickly.

I do know that the age of menarche (onset of menses) was much older than what it is now. The average age of menarche was 17 in Europe in 1850, but declined to age 13 by 1960.

Did this vary somewhat by region? I have an extensive family tree recorded for one side of my family going back to the mid18th century and there were many women who married and started having children by 14 or 15 . They were in California by way of Mexico. They also seemed to have very few if any maternal or child deaths.

I know every individual is different, but there were quite a few women who fit the very early marriage and motherhood category during that time period. Anyone have info on differences by region?

[Widget]

This atheist and former Mormon also knows jack about the bible. I'm not a fan of books with plot holes you could drive a 15 passenger fundie van through. :whistle:

Did this vary somewhat by region? I have an extensive family tree recorded for one side of my family going back to the mid18th century and there were many women who married and started having children by 14 or 15 . They were in California by way of Mexico. They also seemed to have very few if any maternal or child deaths.

I know every individual is different, but there were quite a few women who fit the very early marriage and motherhood category during that time period. Anyone have info on differences by region?

That's an interesting question. All the research I have seen has only cited ages for the US and parts of Europe.

[mockingbird]

I don't know who knows the most about the Bible but popular opinion has it that Catholics know the least because they don't read the Bible outside of what they hear in church. (A Catholic/Protestant divide anecdote: A few times my mom has quoted a Bible verse to someone else at my family's church or mentioned a Bible story that isn't one of the really popular ones and people have legitimately been surprised she can do that. Which could tell you how accurate the Catholic stereotype is! She was actually a convert from various Protestant denominations and likes to joke back that didn't you know I was Evangelical! because all they do is memorize Bible verses according to Catholics haha.)

[GiGi_41]

Alright I kind of avoid the Mormon talk because I fretted away several years of my live to that craziness but...

The temple...very beautiful on the inside, the handshake was strange, as well as the secret name! It cracked me up that its such a big deal to get there and then when you are done they rush you out. No stopping, there are ordinances to be done!

Leadership...I personally saw someone In the stake council have an affair with a neighbor. And it wasn't just a "he was there giving her comfort" oh no, it was joining neighbor dinner parties, stopping over to say hi at lunch. Wwwwswooooooo

Another man in leadership, a pilot. Would have huge parties at his house...alcohol supplied.

Hie to Kolob? You'd think if the church was smart they'd get rid of this hymn. That's all paganistic. Making your own planets.

Or let's talk about the day that I was going to be sealed to douchebag. I had a black eye. The bishop and his wife could have stopped it, said you need to work on a few more thing first. But no, I was told that plans had been made so let's just follow through.

Oh and don't give me the rubbish about how it's the people who have problems not the Church, but the leadership team prays on the position people get. God tells them. Well a lot of the time god don't know shit!

[Syd+Marky]

For the past 9 mos or so I have been studying Mormonism from the inside.I began doing this for my own quest for knowledge(theology is my hobby),and because I'm working on my family history and my maternal grandfather was Mormon.I've attended church and bible studies(either at the church or in a ward members home-including the bishops)and gone through the basic steps of anyone preparing for baptism.In the bible studies all of what is taught comes from The Book of Mormon or other church literature, such as The D&C's,The Pearl of Great Price, Gospel Principals,various books on the different prophets, etc.-the bible has only been used to support what has been written by the church.Also, the missionaries and the bishop strongly discouraged my doing research outside of what the church puts out, claiming(to me, at least)that I can't trust any information from any source other than the church, and that the peopke who put out unfavorable information are lying because they're angry ex-members who couldn't "keep their covenents", or they were ignorant and mistaken.Something else I notice is how they try so hard to bring you into the fold by intruding in your private life outside the church in so many different ways.I actually had missionaries show up to check on me on Sunday eve because I didn't go to church that day.This is just my experience, though, and maybe others had a different conversion experience.

[nelliebelle1197]

Did this vary somewhat by region? I have an extensive family tree recorded for one side of my family going back to the mid18th century and there were many women who married and started having children by 14 or 15 . They were in California by way of Mexico. They also seemed to have very few if any maternal or child deaths.

I know every individual is different, but there were quite a few women who fit the very early marriage and motherhood category during that time period. Anyone have info on differences by region?

There will be regional, cultural and class differences in marriageable age. It is that way even today. We have info going back to the late 1600s on my maternal sides and our marriage ages were in the late teens - my grandmother married at 13 but she was the youngest and she married to escape an abusive uncle after she was orphaned.

[nelliebelle1197]

If you were "super prepared" you did so because you went through other channels to receive your information. Temple prep tells you nothing. Which at the time I went, we were specifically instructed NOT to do. For many, many years the church leadership told us we were only to learn about the church, it's history and it's ordinances ONLY from the church. They may teach something different now, I have no idea because I keep as far away from the Morg as possible. Other endowed church members are not supposed to tell you anything either, or at least they weren't at the time.

Fucking ducky for you. It's statements like this that make me furious. There is always this implication by Mormons that if you left, it MUST be because you didn't know the scriptures well enough. Or because you neglected your responsibility somewhere. The blame is always on the person who left, and not actually where it belongs: with the church and it's leadership. Do Mormons honestly not realize how obnoxious they sound when they say shit like this?

Look sugar, you can call that shit whatever you want. I've heard it all before. It's a secret handshake ripped off from the Masons. Point blank. It wasn't beautiful back in my day when they made you make gestures where you pretended to slit your own throat. But tell yourself whatever you want to make yourself feel better.

Again, blame the person. If I had to hazard a guess, i'd say she was doing what she was told

Fucking kidding me? "Sorry you had a bad experience"? That's what the manager of McDonalds would tell you if you complained after the staff forgot your napkins. My life was ruined because I left that church. My husband DIVORCED me for no other reason than I left the church, and took my first child and my family with him. I was harassed by the missionaries and various members of my stake for YEARS. I had rumors spread about me becoming a drug addict, about me being crazy. All approved and encouraged by my former bishop. LDS leaders are either inspired by God or they aren't.

You act like that's not typical, but it very much is. Get your head out of the sand.

If you honestly believe in the horseshit you just wrote, then you do belong there.

I'm here to snark on fundies, not get some faux-pity from a Morgbot. Why the fuck are you here?

I am sorry, but if you combine "super prepared" with critical thinking skills, there is no way that equals Mormon conversion. Joseph Smith was a con man and he made the whole thing up. Of course, similar things can be said about all religion, but what I find so intriguing about Mormonism is that its origins are not lost in the dusty vault of time, that it is so obviously the world's best long con, yet people still fall for it. Out of all world religions, Scientology and Mormonism are the two that I just hold in utter contempt.

[Clementine]

How ignorant of your religion do you have to be not to know the founder was a polygamist? don't forget a two time jailbird and wife stealer and pedophile? I guess hiding truths is backfiring.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/21/us/so ... l?hp&_r=4&

But when he discovered credible evidence that the church’s founder, Joseph Smith, was a polygamist and that the Book of Mormon and other scriptures were rife with historical anomalies, Mr. Mattsson said he felt that the foundation on which he had built his life began to crumble.

He is from Sweden. There are very few mormons here, about 9 000 spread across the country. They mostly keep to themselves and I rarely read, hear or have any kind of interaction with mormons. The public libraries don't have much information or books about the mormons, not positive books, not critical books. If he grew up in the LDS church in Sweden in the 40's and 50's, I can understand why he never came into contact with any crirical litterature about his church.

[gezykah]

2 Nephi is mistakenly interpreted as race. White and black have always been symbols throughout the old and new testament for good and bad. No doubt that early members took this too literally for too long. All Native Americans do not have ancestral Jewish blood. The group that entered into the Americas in 600 BC acknowledge that there were many other groups there as well. Having Whiteness or blackness upon skin in this context refers to wearing righteousness or unrighteousness just like having the robes of righteousness. Reading it from cover to cover helps with the context.

An angel led Joseph Smith to the golden plates, instructed him to translate them, yet the first generations of the movement couldn't interpret Nephi correctly :think: ?

[formergothardite]

"How do you feel about posthumous baptism, incidentally?"

Its a beautiful practice. I love the temple! No one is forcing anyone to be Mormon. I like this analogy where Baptism for the Dead is like leaving tickets at will call and hope that someone will join you at the show. We believe that after we die there is still so much opportunity for growth in the spirit and doing temple work helps us to participate in accomplishing the work.

I'm a Salt Lake Temple worker and everything in the temple is beautiful and edifying. It's a place where I feel close to heaven and this world's craziness goes away for a few hours.

Members of the church have gotten a little crazy ( submitting for Elvis and Jews in the holocaust which are against church policy) lately so to submit names there are a lot of rules.

Why is it wrong to submit Jews from the holocaust but not wrong to submit other non-believers? It is offensive and shows no respect for the life of the person you are baptism no matter who they are or how they died(though I admit it is especially evil to do it to people who died for their faith). If it is not offensive and just like "leaving tickets at will call and hoping someone will join you" then it wouldn't be "crazy" to do that to Jewish people. How is it respecting the life of the person who died if you do something like this? Something that in life they would have protested?

Do Mormons really believe that men get their own worlds/planets but women don't? Are you bothered at all about the Mormon church's fight against gay marriage?

[nelliebelle1197]

An angel led Joseph Smith to the golden plates, instructed him to translate them, yet the first generations of the movement couldn't interpret Nephi correctly :think: ?

The plates were actually the used to translate the book of mormon.

So do current Mormon leaders claim to have access to the plates so they can re-translate the book of mormon? What about the seer stone Smith needed and placed in the bottom of the hat that he peered in to do the translating? The plates, according to the angel and Joseph Smith, are the absolute only way to translate the book.

Unless someone knows "reformed Eqyptian" or has access to the text that the angel gave JS, then there is absolutely no way that anyone can say that there was a translation error. Period. Unlike christian texts, there is zero primary source material in an ancient language for the mormon text. What you have is sudden new interpretations that pop up without any analyses, reason or primary source material to fit current political trends. PERIOD.

[Morton Fan]

[snip]

Why is it wrong to submit Jews from the holocaust but not wrong to submit other non-believers? It is offensive and shows no respect for the life of the person you are baptism no matter who they are or how they died(though I admit it is especially evil to do it to people who died for their faith). If it is not offensive and just like "leaving tickets at will call and hoping someone will join you" then it wouldn't be "crazy" to do that to Jewish people. How is it respecting the life of the person who died if you do something like this? Something that in life they would have protested?

That's always been something I've wondered ... LDS authorities made a huge fuss and have said that baptizing Anne Frank, for instance, was out of line. But, doing a baptism by proxy for the late Joe Schmoe is completely fine? And what's so bad about Elvis? In my opinion, it's either all offensive or not offensive at all (while agreeing that, like FormerGothardite said, it seems an extra insult to do it to those who've died because of their faith).

[lilwriter85]

My take on the posthumous baptisms is that they are a bit intrusive and disrespectful to the families of the deceased especially those who have been deceased less than 50 years or so. Daniel Pearl's widow and parents were upset that they weren't asked beforehand about baptizing Daniel posthumously.

[August]

I don't know who knows the most about the Bible but popular opinion has it that Catholics know the least because they don't read the Bible outside of what they hear in church. (A Catholic/Protestant divide anecdote: A few times my mom has quoted a Bible verse to someone else at my family's church or mentioned a Bible story that isn't one of the really popular ones and people have legitimately been surprised she can do that. Which could tell you how accurate the Catholic stereotype is! She was actually a convert from various Protestant denominations and likes to joke back that didn't you know I was Evangelical! because all they do is memorize Bible verses according to Catholics haha.)

Catholics aren't allowed to read the bible.

[fundamentalistnomore]

The more I read the BOM, and other literature, it sounds even weirder. If someone tells me they were born into it, I can understand believing. If you grew up only knowing the Mormon way, then it would be normal. Is there anyone here that was raised Mormon? If so, could you elaborate more about the Star Base Kolob & the people living on the sun & moon? Bigfoot/Cain...

[Coconut Flan]

Catholics aren't allowed to read the bible.

You are being sarcastic, right?

[GeoBQn]

The first time I heard about the posthumous baptisms of Holocaust victims, I was livid. My mom asked, "If you don't believe that these baptisms have any actual power, then why are you letting it bother you?" It's true, I don't think that they actually accomplish anything metaphysically. It's more the attitude that bothers me. It shows a careless disregard for how and why these people were murdered, and it is indicative of a disrespect that bleeds over into other areas.

[Cheesemaker]

I get the feeling that with the planets, Angel Moroni, ancient Egyptian writing, buried things, postumous baptism, that Joseph Smith, had he been born 100 yrs later would have been competing strongly with L Ron Hubbard for converts. Imagine what the LDS church would look like, had sci-fi been invented!

Plural Thetan marriages, emeter sec checks on if you believe in the BoM...

[ADoyle90815]

The first time I heard about the posthumous baptisms of Holocaust victims, I was livid. My mom asked, "If you don't believe that these baptisms have any actual power, then why are you letting it bother you?" It's true, I don't think that they actually accomplish anything metaphysically. It's more the attitude that bothers me. It shows a careless disregard for how and why these people were murdered, and it is indicative of a disrespect that bleeds over into other areas.

I agree, as to me, the idea of necro dunking is a disrespect to what those Holocaust victims died for. I call it necro dunking because I don't believe in the practice, and I think it's disrespectful to the religious beliefs of all who have died. I also don't agree with proxy "sealings" since for anyone who was married to an abusive person, the thought of spending eternity "married" to them is hell, not heaven. At least, that's the case for me as my ex-husband was abusive, and I'm just glad I was able to divorce him and not have to go through trying to get a temple wedding canceled.

[snarkopolis]

1. They baptize the dead because they believe that it the only way for them to get into heaven (their idea of heaven). 2. It does help with the shove/push they give their missionaries and other functionaries to get new members. 3. Catholics are taught that the Bible is a teaching tool, not to be taken LITERALLY. I learned that from the priest who taught Theology in Catholic High School. We were never encouraged to memorize Scripture verses because it was/is? all about context. That's probably why other Christians don't think we read the Bible.