Fundies and their love for the King James bible

[DistantStar]

I like all the thees and thous in services as well, but we don't use the current BCP version with them for the main 9:30 service, let alone the 1928. One funeral service did and I loved it. Not the occasion, but the language. I am totally liberal as far as beliefs but I do like formality in ritual.

That being said, if I want to read the Bible for study, the LAST one I'd use is the KJ. There are much better ones out there for that.

[Miggy]

I've always enjoyed "trespasses" when a whole congregation tries to say it. Trespassesssssesssesssess. There is definitely a relationship between the number of people and the length of time it takes to say.

[Hane]

Silly question from a Jew - when did they change the Lord's Prayer? I heard it every day in school here (Ontario, Canada) until 1985, and it definitely had "and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those that trespass against us".

Not a silly question at all. I grew up Catholic, but with a great deal of exposure to various Protestant churches. The Catholic form was always "forgive us our trespasses" and ended in "but deliver us from evil." The Protestant versions often used "debts" instead of "trespasses," and added the phrase "for thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever and ever." It reminds me of how different denominations use different versions of the Ten Commandments, depending on which part of the Bible they came from.

[miffy]

I went to a high church Anglican school, we always said 'deliver us from evil forgive us for our trespasses and those who trespass against us.' Version. Our study bible was the GNB and we all took a book of common prayer to assembly.

The fundie KJV bible obsession amuses be, because king James there is little doubt that king James had close male friends ;)

[miffy]

Oh and I'd love to have a proper BCP wedding with no kissing!

[gezykah]

I'm having flash backs right now to this show which I miss-

http://video.adultswim.com/moral-orel/t ... btors.html

[Ampak]

Not a silly question at all. I grew up Catholic, but with a great deal of exposure to various Protestant churches. The Catholic form was always "forgive us our trespasses" and ended in "but deliver us from evil." The Protestant versions often used "debts" instead of "trespasses," and added the phrase "for thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever and ever." It reminds me of how different denominations use different versions of the Ten Commandments, depending on which part of the Bible they came from.

I was recently in a Catholic wedding and I thought the (very old and inexperienced) deacon who was performing the rite messed up and forgot the end of the prayer. I felt like an idiot when I brought it up later!

[Shoes Grace]

I'm KJV only because I like the language. The only time I'm attending religious services are weddings and funerals and, I'm sorry, but Psalm 23 in particular sounds stupid in some of the new translations. "Even though I walk through the dark valley," is not the same thing as, "Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death," regardless of whatever it might have been in Hebrew.

In terms of the Lord's Prayer, it's derived from two separate sources, verses in Matthew and verses in Luke. (It happens that Matthew and Luke have a lot of the same stories with different details, often conflicting. This is true of most of the gospels to an extent, but Matthew and Luke seem to have been trying to tell almost the same story more often than not.) The verses in Matthew use a Greek word that means debtors, the verses in Luke use a Greek word that means sin, but there's an Aramaic word that means both debtors and sinners, suggesting that the prayer was originally in Aramaic and got put down in two different ways whenever it was translated to Greek. Trespasses is similar to another word used by Jesus elsewhere in the Bible and may actually be closer to that Aramaic word than either sin or debtors.

Presbyterians and some reformed Protestants use debtors. Most everybody else uses trespasses (unless they have a minister with a preference for debtors because it's easier to say). Generally only Protestants append the doxology (which is separate from The Doxology), "for thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever and ever, Amen." It's actually similar to a Jewish Kaddish, or, in a more secular definition, it's the chorus between the verses, and was borrowed from another document entirely that has nothing to do with Matthew or Luke. This was likely inserted before moving on to another prayer, or to signify the sermon was switching topics, or similar, and it got added in as a finisher.

(Edited because I do actually know Psalm 23:4.)

[julie paradox]

Year 2000? God, no.

The trespasses version is still in use (we are officially allowed to use The Traditional Version even if using the newer liturgy) and is the one they teach the children at my son's church primary school. ("Thy Kingdom coomb" - very cute)

[note to leftpondians: this is a publically-funded school under all the rules applicable to other maintained schools but also under the Diocesan Board of Education and with diocesan-owned buildings. All maintained schools have to have "broadly Christian" acts of collective worship, though this may be altered if appropriate (90% of pupils being muslim, for example).]

I don't know when we changed it to sins (not debts! where did debts come from? NEVER used debts) but I grew up in the seventies using Series 3:

Our Father in Heaven

hallowed be Your name

Your Kingdom come

Your will be done

on Earth as in Heaven.

Give us today our daily bread

and forgive us our sins

as we forgive those who sin against us.

Do not bring us to the time of trial

but deliver us from evil

For the Kingdom, the Power and the Glory are Yours

now and for ever. Amen.

When the Alternative Services Book came in in 1980 the bolded was abandoned in favour of "Lead us not into temptation." Apart from that it remains the same in the current Common Worship.

When I was little I used to keep track of the sibilants in the congregational prayers. The aim was to ensure that there was an average of at least one per sentence. Usually it worked, but occasionally things started to look a bit grim! The traditional version was very helpful here.

[julie paradox]

(not debts! where did debts come from? NEVER used debts)

That'll teach me not to skim-read just because I want to comment. But I genuinely had never encountered "debts" in the Lord's Prayer till a year or two ago on Slacktivist.

Very interesting about the sins/debts translation (that darn Aramatic again). Thanks, Shoes Grace.

[JesusFightClub]

At my school the Lord's Prayer was up in the canteen and we sang it together at assembly, and it *definitely* had trespasses in it. I remember because that line was an absolute bastard to sing. "As WEEE forgivethosewhotrespassagainstus, HALLOWED BE THY NAME". That was in the 80s and early 90s, mind.

That's funny, OKTB ;) We thought Catholics said the Lord's Prayer in Latin, because they were always doing shit in Latin. :lol:

[2xx1xy1JD]

Our version was:

Our Father who art in Heaven

Hallowed by thy name

Thy kingdom come, thy will be done

on earth as it is in Heaven

Give us this day our daily bread

and forgive us our trespasses

As we forgive those who trespass against us

And lead us not into temptation

But deliver us from evil

For thine is the kingdom

The power and the glory

For ever and ever, amen.

[All appropriately mumbled while finishing last minute math homework.]

To me, KJV is a good reference for historical/literary purposes, since so many traditional quotes are based on it.

My parents had a KJV around the house, so I'd occasionally look stuff up there and had some idea what the traditional English-language biblical quotes were. Now, my function in the family seems to be let my husband and kids know what the "traditional English" quotes and transliterations are, since they learned everything in Hebrew and just translate on their own into plain English. My husband and kids can't stand doing prayers or religious readings in English - the type of language used just seems so different to them, so they have trouble understanding or relating to it.

[miffy]

At my school the Lord's Prayer was up in the canteen and we sang it together at assembly, and it *definitely* had trespasses in it. I remember because that line was an absolute bastard to sing. "As WEEE forgivethosewhotrespassagainstus, HALLOWED BE THY NAME". That was in the 80s and early 90s, mind.

That's funny, OKTB ;) We thought Catholics said the Lord's Prayer in Latin, because they were always doing shit in Latin. :lol:

forgivethosewhotrespassagainstus :lol:. Thats exactly what it sounded like!

The school chaplain was right into his anglo-catholic pageantry, so there was always a chorus of coughing due to the incense.

[OkToBeTakei]

That'll teach me not to skim-read just because I want to comment. But I genuinely had never encountered "debts" in the Lord's Prayer till a year or two ago on Slacktivist.

Very interesting about the sins/debts translation (that darn Aramatic again). Thanks, Shoes Grace.

Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

11 Give us this day our daily bread.

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

Matthew 6:9-13 (King James Version)....Apparently!

Pesky protestants and their money :lol:

[MsSaylor]

Interesting discussion! The version I grew up with as ELCA Lutheran is exactly what 2xx posted. Kind of embarrassing when you go to a different church and say "trespasses" while everyone else was saying 'debts' or 'sins' and you pretty much can't find your place back in the recitation after that.

One of my favorite parts of church was listening to all those monotone Nebraska Lutherans recite the Lords Prayer or the Apostles Creed in unison!

[Miggy]

Trespasses was used until the late 1970s when we attended a Presbyterian Church. When the Presbyterian, Methodist & Congregational Churches combined to form the Uniting Church in Australia we changed the Lord's Prayer to "forgive us our sins, as we ...". I was sort of aware of the "debtors" version being used but have never been to a church/camp/youth group that used that version,

[Shoes Grace]

Matthew 6:9-13 (King James Version)....Apparently!

Pesky protestants and their money :lol:

Pretty much. For the sake of clarity: when Matthew was translated for the KJV, they were using a different source than other Bibles. They thought this source was older and were under the impression with the "for thine is the kingdom" doxology that they were returning a line "dropped" in the contemporary scripture. It wasn't, and newer scholarship confirms this. Generally speaking, unless you actually believe that the Bible is a genuine product of a divine entity, this is all semantics and down to personal preference. Of course, if you DO happen to believe that, it's hella tough to "pick" a version to be "most divine" if you're actually aware of any of this. If you remain totally ignorant of the process, it's easy, all you have to do is what your own private Pope, be he Gothard or Steve or (to branch out) Harold Camping, tells you.

The whole purpose of having a Bible in your mother tongue is that you can read and understand it yourself. I'll admit that for many readers, the KJV is becoming difficult to understand. In fundie circles where you have things like The Gospel According to the PP and the SOTDRT, that's just as dangerous as when Luther got all pissed off at the Catholics for saying, "Yep, yep, yep, that's totally in there, but it's in Latin. Can you read Latin? Nope? Can you even read? Well then, take my word for it, bitches!"

[JesusFightClub]

Our version was:

Our Father who art in Heaven

Hallowed by thy name

Thy kingdom come, thy will be done

on earth as it is in Heaven

Give us this day our daily bread

and forgive us our trespasses

As we forgive those who trespass against us

And lead us not into temptation

But deliver us from evil

For thine is the kingdom

The power and the glory

For ever and ever, amen.

[All appropriately mumbled while finishing last minute math homework.]

To me, KJV is a good reference for historical/literary purposes, since so many traditional quotes are based on it.

My parents had a KJV around the house, so I'd occasionally look stuff up there and had some idea what the traditional English-language biblical quotes were. Now, my function in the family seems to be let my husband and kids know what the "traditional English" quotes and transliterations are, since they learned everything in Hebrew and just translate on their own into plain English. My husband and kids can't stand doing prayers or religious readings in English - the type of language used just seems so different to them, so they have trouble understanding or relating to it.

This is the same version I know, 2xy. I've got an earworm because we sang it every day at school :embarrassed:

[Swamptribe]

From now on, if anybody gives me that KJV only stuff, I'm gonna bring up that King James was a homosexual. Which explains a lot of what I was always taught, that the King was a big time misogynist. Ok, I know it's kind of mean.

[sewingmom2]

As a Catholic homeschooler, I did have the kids read the KJV their junior year. So much of English literature is based on the language of the KJV and, imo, it IS the most beautiful version.

They read through The Living Bible in 8th grade, the NIV in 9th grade, the Catholic NAB in 10th grade and the KJV in 11th grade. They did their senior year at the local community college, so religion wasn't included that year. I supplemented with the CCC (catechism of the Catholic Church), and several Protestant/Reformation catechisms/confessions (Westminster, Heidelberg, etc).

I consider the KJV the most difficult to fully understand, so it was the last version read. I think the kids all use the NIV for personal devotions in their adult lives, but I could be wrong. I wouldn't consider it my business to ask.

[Avii]

I'm actually embarrassed to say I hadn't even heard of the KJV until very recently. I was brought up as a (cafeteria) Catholic and there was never any consideration that other versions even existed!

[TinyDancer87]

From now on, if anybody gives me that KJV only stuff, I'm gonna bring up that King James was a homosexual. Which explains a lot of what I was always taught, that the King was a big time misogynist. Ok, I know it's kind of mean.

Was King James really a homosexual? Or is that just a joke?

[blisterine]

My DIL is KJVO to the extent she has THROWN AWAY 3 bibles. One was actually a gift-wrapped NIV my son was giving to the daughter of a friend who specifically asked for NIV so she could understand it better. This was before they married and she wanted to see what my son was giving another woman. So she unwrapped and trashed it when she saw it was NIV.

The second she disposed of was the NIV I gave my son at his baptism, which he requested so get a better understanding. I found out about the first NIV being garbage when I asked my son if he used his Bible I bought him.

The third one was a children's bible-ish book that told specific bible stories along with pages the kids can color. It belonged to her daughter who got it from her Sunday school teacher when she was saved.

When I attempted to explain to her how the KJV came into being, I got the oft-heard response of "KJV is the only Holy Bible. Any other version comes from man and is perverting God's word. I refuse to read Satan's bible!" She even stopped going to church after the pastor asked for someone to hand him an NIV bible and I gladly offered mine so he could compare KJV to NIV for a specific verse and he stated the NIV was easier to understand.

The only good thing is since she doesn't go to church, I go more often and don't dread going.

JMO: I personally think she will go to hell for throwing away a bible!

[Arete]

When a GO church in an English speaking country has the congregational Lord's Prayer, it is "trespasses" all the way. Nowadays, there is even an Orthodox Study Bible, but back in the day we used the Catholic NAB or the Oxford Annotated.

We may have a 1000 year old mad on with the Catholic church, but there was no way any Protestantism was going to come out of our mouths if we could help it. ;) :lol:

[miffy]

Was King James really a homosexual? Or is that just a joke?

Most probably bisexual, so was his main uhh mistress George Villiers.

Following Villiers' introduction to James during the king's progress of that year, the king developed a strong affection for Villiers, calling him his 'sweet child and wife'; the personal relationships of James are a much debated topic, with Villiers making the last of a succession of favourites on whom James lavished affection and rewards. The extent to which there was a sexual element, or a physical sexual relationship, involved in these cases remains controversial. Villiers reciprocated the king's love and wrote to James: "I naturally so love your person, and adore all your other parts, which are more than ever one man had" and "I desire only to live in the world for your sake". Restoration of Apethorpe Hall in 2004–2008 revealed a previously unknown passage linking his bedchamber with that of James.