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Why Have Babies? Warning: Headache Inducing Logic


debrand

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.boundless.org/adulthood/2013/why-have-babies

Have we discussed this article before? The link came from LAF

Do you hope to have children? That's the question I've started asking the young married women God brings into my life

Isn't this an intrusive question? I understand asking it of someone you know a long time or is one of your relations. But to ask it of every young, married woman that comes into your life is very nosey.

The writer is upset that women might delay having children until they feel ready for a family.

We live in a world where people take great pains and lots of pills to prevent babies when they don't want them, and spare no expense to get them when they do.

She views this as bad while I view it as wonderful. Do NOT have babies that you aren't willing or able to parent.

Mary's question, "What makes you think you'll still be fertile when you decide you're ready to have babies?" jolted me because it offended my sense of control. I figured I knew best when I'd be ready to be a mom. Even though I wasn't on the pill, I was very much in the birth-control mindset. I thought this decision was up to Steve and me. We believed we were in control. Her question hit me like a bucket of ice water.

Oh my goodness. Seriously? Yes, there is a chance that any of us could be infertile. However, there is no need to give up all control over your own fertility.

"But, Dr. Morken, we can't afford them." Dr. Morken didn't waste time looking at our balance sheet or examining our checkbook. He knew we weren't paupers, but even that wasn't the issue. (He and Mary had a fraction of what we did when they got married and started their family, as have most human beings for all of recorded history). The point is that it's not about money. He went to the deeper issue: "Babies are wealth," he said. "Budget for everything but babies."

What a bunch of selfish pricks! Yes, budget babies. If you can't afford them, you can't afford them. I don't know why they had to give a reason for not having kids. Isn't , "I just don't want kids, at this point." enough reason?

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Babies may be wealth, but they do need things that cost money and as they grow they need even more. So budget for babies because they aren't born dragging a bucket of gold with them and somebody needs to pay for the things to keep them alive.

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You can't measure the worth of a baby — a human being made in the image of God — with a spreadsheet or calculator the way you would material things, entertainment, travel or education. People have intrinsic value and worth that is unlike anything else in creation.

Unless, of course, they're muslim or atheist or liberal or non-white or poor, etc :roll:

I think some douchebag just convinced this woman that she should feel guilty over her infertility struggles because JESUS. I think the blog used to be affiliated with Focus on the Family. The whole thing just looks like a slicker and more active version of the Jeub blog. Have babies! Don't make a budget! Disregard your gut feelings! Ignore reality! :doh:

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Why oh why do these people believe they have the right to ask these private, intrusive questions and to make decisions on how I live my life. They can all f**k themselves. They're all about the babies. It's people they don't like.

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See, this kind of thing happened to a colleague of mine: she and her husband married in their early 20s. They wanted to be well-established before they had kids, so they got their master's degrees, advanced in their careers, got a beautiful home, and saved money. Then, when they hit their 30s, they decided to try for a family--only to learn that she had a health condition that necessitated a hysterectomy.

Now, here's the deal: She doesn't pontificate about "Quick--have your babies NOW or ELSE!!!". She will say, "This is what happened to me; it's just something to consider."

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I hate the logic that if I wait I won't be able to have children. I'm at my peak of fertility, but that doesn't make a difference since I likely have a condition that only gives me a 50/50 chance of being fertile at all. If I'm infertile now, it won't make a difference if I tried to get pregnant tomorrow, next year, 5 years or even 10 years down the road. I will still be infertile. Or I may be fertile. I know women who got pregnant in their late 30s/early 40s without any trouble at all. It's all up to the individual body. Some women are infertile at 20 and others are super fertile at almost 45. Life has no guarantees.

And even though I definitely want children and really would love to be a mother one day and some days I hope for nothing more in my future than to be a mom, asking that question at random is intrusive. It's not their business as to our family plans and when and how many we want to have. That's between my (future) spouse and I only. I don't even think about asking young couples such a question and especially not a random young couple. Who the hell does that? Seriously.

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Unless, of course, they're muslim or atheist or liberal or non-white or poor, etc :roll:

I think some douchebag just convinced this woman that she should feel guilty over her infertility struggles because JESUS. I think the blog used to be affiliated with Focus on the Family. The whole thing just looks like a slicker and more active version of the Jeub blog. Have babies! Don't make a budget! Disregard your gut feelings! Ignore reality! :doh:

Do my ova have intrinsic value? 'Cause I don't have kids, just ova, and I can assure you the ova don't care whether they become kids or not.

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I hate the logic that if I wait I won't be able to have children. I'm at my peak of fertility, but that doesn't make a difference since I likely have a condition that only gives me a 50/50 chance of being fertile at all. If I'm infertile now, it won't make a difference if I tried to get pregnant tomorrow, next year, 5 years or even 10 years down the road. I will still be infertile. Or I may be fertile. I know women who got pregnant in their late 30s/early 40s without any trouble at all. It's all up to the individual body. Some women are infertile at 20 and others are super fertile at almost 45. Life has no guarantees.

And even though I definitely want children and really would love to be a mother one day and some days I hope for nothing more in my future than to be a mom, asking that question at random is intrusive. It's not their business as to our family plans and when and how many we want to have. That's between my (future) spouse and I only. I don't even think about asking young couples such a question and especially not a random young couple. Who the hell does that? Seriously.

But statistically it really does make a difference. Of course there are plenty of women in their early twenties who are infertile, and plenty of women who will have babies up until menopause...but the chances of being infertile increase from your late twenties on. There is a dramatic difference in your likelihood of conceiving in your early 20s as opposed to your late 30s.

I don't understand why people wouldn't want to be aware of that. Even if your concerns are primarily financial, wouldn't you want to be able to intelligently weigh the costs and benefits of having children earlier vs the increased likelihood of having to pay for expensive reproductive technology.

I don't think that means that random strangers should be telling everyone to have a baby right away, or at all. But I don't think it is wise to promote the idea that most women can wait until their late 30s to have a first pregnancy when they have the perfect home, the perfect marriage, the perfect career and tons of money in the bank. To me that isn't much less realistic than the stay at home daughter who is waiting for mr. Right to fall in her lap.

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I don't understand why people wouldn't want to be aware of that.

I don't think anyone here doesn't want to be aware of that. I think people get riled by that kind of warning because it's condescending; it assumes we're idiots who didn't think our life plans through.

But I don't think it is wise to promote the idea that most women can wait until their late 30s to have a first pregnancy when they have the perfect home, the perfect marriage, the perfect career and tons of money in the bank.

Most women can wait until their late 30s, though. Infertility rates are still below 50% for women in their early 40s. With that said, in my experience women are either told to hurry up and have kids and worry about education later, or to hurry up and be settled by the time they're thirty if they want to be sure to have kids. Many of us choose not to follow this advice because we've deemed waiting until we're financially and professionally stable worth the elevated risk of infertility. I wish they told us we can wait until our late 30s if we want.

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So because we look like god that's the reason to have children? to make more mini me gods??? Of course god will provide even though us people who know reality see that he does not.

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I really don't understand why being unable to carry a watermelon in your uterus somehow equals not being able to be a mother. Hundreds of thousands of kids all over the world need parents. You can pick them out of a catalog if you want. All costs factored in, some hospitals charge what it costs to adopt for delivery with even minimal complications. Does vaginal delivery make you a better (or more motherly) mother by default? I know plenty of people with evil mothers who would disagree with this statement. So what's the problem?

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Of course there are always those women who try for years, find out they are infertile, adopt, THEN get pregnant. I know one of those myself.

Overall I agree that it doesn't matter if you wait or not, what happens happens. And having children before you (and your spouse) are ready can lead to marital problems. I know many of those myself.

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I don't know that there's ever a right time to have kids. The circumstances will never be 100% perfect. Life is unpredictable. I think the key is being in a stable place mentally, free of substance abuse issues, with any mental illnesses under control, in a solid relationship where both parties are comitted to raising a child to adulthood. It doesn't have to break the bank to have a kid, but its probably a good idea to make sure you can afford the basics- healthy food, adequate clothing, and safe shelter. If you can't manage that, it may not be the right time for kids. I don't think kids need to have expensive clothes or gadgets, but good food, a home that is free of hazards, and weather appropriate clothing are non negotiable. Some people are ready at 20, some at 40, some never. And some of us jump in as teens, ready or not. I figure other people's family planning is none of my business.

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A friend of mine tried for years to have a baby. She and her husband eventually did, with the help of IVF, when she was in her late 20's. Her husband is only a couple years older. Their fertility issue was due to low quality sperm. She said it was awkward though when people would ask them about if they were going to have kids. They really, really wanted to kids and as a young couple, by appearances, they shouldn't have had any issues.

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The 'start a family' thing annoys me. Your family is already here-husband, sisters, brothers, mother, father etc. If Fundies really read the Bible Genesis says Adam and Eve were one flesh. IMO too many couples are pressured into having children for tradition./relgious sake. The decision to have children is an option not an obligation to society or anyone. America still can't seepast marriage and babies for everyone.

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Further in the article, the author states reasons to have kids

They increase your joy, and any challenges they may bring are God's means for your sanctification.

Babies are God's blessing. God's first words to His newly created man and woman were a blessing but also a command, "Be fruitful and multiply"

Babies are part of God's good design.

God wants the earth to be full of people. Isaiah 45:18 says, "For thus says the Lord, who created the heavens (he is God!), who formed the earth and made it (he established it; he did not create it empty, he formed it to be inhabited!): 'I am the Lord, and there is no other.'" And how will all these babies come to know God and worship Him?

Married couples are called to make babies — disciples of Jesus Christ

Heaven will be full of worshipers.

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I know two people who had kids because it was 'the thing to do'. The next step, what is expected, the path of life that is to be followed.

While I don't know of any outright abuse happening in either case, I do know it wasn't exactly happy, happy, joy, joy in those households. My cousin's wife, who had kids when they met and swore she wouldn't do it again, eventually 'had one for him' - he wanted kids, she didn't, they had a son. That boy is spending his life living between his mom, dad and grandparents because his mother never actually wanted him and eventually left the relationship, and him.

In the other case, the kids are fed and clothed and have a decent home. They do not, however, have involved parents. They spent their younger years in front of video game and the television. Other parents driving them to sports, the parents never attending baseball games or soccer games. The younger one learned to ride a bike with the neighbor. Essentially, their parents are providing for their physical needs but not emotional. They're good kids, somehow, but they are not happy or full of life. They are, to be honest, quite 'blank'. They come to parties and just sit around, rarely engaging with other kids. They don't talk much and don't engage.

People who don't want to have kids, aren't prepared to have kids, aren't comfortable with kids, can't afford them...or do it any reason other than wanting to raise a family...are not providing properly for those kids and shouldn't have them.

These people are so twisted and have no clue; it's all about their religion and agenda, and innocent children be damned.

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The 'start a family' thing annoys me. Your family is already here-husband, sisters, brothers, mother, father etc. If Fundies really read the Bible Genesis says Adam and Eve were one flesh. IMO too many couples are pressured into having children for tradition./relgious sake. The decision to have children is an option not an obligation to society or anyone. America still can't seepast marriage and babies for everyone.

THANK YOU. The whole "When are you going to start a family?" question annoys me to no end. Luckily I don't get that very often due to where I live and work, but when I do, I say: "I already have a family. I may add a child, or I may not, but my family started long before I was born."

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The woman's reasoning that Heaven will be full of worshippers sounds crazy. There is no guarantee that your children will follow your beliefs. Is her god so weak that he needs women to risk their health giving him babies

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Babies are part of God's good design.

So are viruses. Just sayin'.

God wants the earth to be full of people.

If the earth were full of people, everyone would die because humans can't live inside a planet, let alone if they're all squished together in there. So God can't want the earth full of people unless he's a bizarre, twisted guy. If the earth were covered with people, we'd still all die because we'd be squished together and the land we'd need to grow food would be being trampled by other dying people.

God wants the world to be inhabited. The world is inhabited. The world has been inhabited since the first life forms lived on it. However, if we pollute the earth so much that no one can live on it anymore - that it is no longer inhabited - then we'll be disobeying God. Since God clearly doesn't want humankind to annihilate itself, it's evident that he expects us to be fruitful and multiply reasonably. See? I can take the Bible literally, too.

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The woman's reasoning that Heaven will be full of worshippers sounds crazy. There is no guarantee that your children will follow your beliefs. Is her god so weak that he needs women to risk their health giving him babies

Is her god so weak that he needs tons of worshippers?

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I knew as early as high school I really didn't want to have children. As I got older, the feeling intensified. I love children, but I did not want to be a mother by any stretch of the imagination.

The pressure from others ("You'll never know what true love is until you have a baby", "It's different when they're your own", "There's something wrong with people who don't want children", "You should adopt if you don't want to go through a pregnancy") was intense until my late 40's. Interestingly enough, those putting the most pressure on us to have children were the most miserable with their own.

We recently volunteered to babysit one evening for someone we know that was facing a pretty scary diagnosis and wanted a night out with her husband. The little girl was already asleep when we got there and didn't need a thing besides making sure an adult was present if she woke up while her parents were gone. When the thirtysomething parents arrived home, we were treated to some eye-opening comments from the young father to the effect of "Parenthood is nothing like I believed it would be. We have no freedom and no time to ourselves. I don't like staying home every weekend." He concluded his comments with, "If I had it to do over again, I wouldn't."

We were a little stunned.

Those who don't want children already know they don't. If they change their minds, that's their decision to make, not the well-meaning church members or others who ultimately have no business dictating the size or composition of anyone else's family. It's always fascinating to me that the churched seem to believe they know better than the rest of us what's best for each individual.

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Raintown: Your last sentence is particularly ironic to me when it comes to the Catholic church when unmarried men are advocating big families.

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I knew as early as high school I really didn't want to have children. As I got older, the feeling intensified. I love children, but I did not want to be a mother by any stretch of the imagination.

The pressure from others ("You'll never know what true love is until you have a baby", "It's different when they're your own", "There's something wrong with people who don't want children", "You should adopt if you don't want to go through a pregnancy") was intense until my late 40's. Interestingly enough, those putting the most pressure on us to have children were the most miserable with their own.

We recently volunteered to babysit one evening for someone we know that was facing a pretty scary diagnosis and wanted a night out with her husband. The little girl was already asleep when we got there and didn't need a thing besides making sure an adult was present if she woke up while her parents were gone. When the thirtysomething parents arrived home, we were treated to some eye-opening comments from the young father to the effect of "Parenthood is nothing like I believed it would be. We have no freedom and no time to ourselves. I don't like staying home every weekend." He concluded his comments with, "If I had it to do over again, I wouldn't."

We were a little stunned.

Those who don't want children already know they don't. If they change their minds, that's their decision to make, not the well-meaning church members or others who ultimately have no business dictating the size or composition of anyone else's family. It's always fascinating to me that the churched seem to believe they know better than the rest of us what's best for each individual.

What a sad situation for the parents. I don't want to be judgmental towards your friends, but don't people usually anticipate a significant loss of personal freedom, space, time, etc. when raising a young child? I don't know many parents of young kids, even really wealthy ones, who have more than maybe one night a month (very generously speaking) to go spend enjoying themselves away from the kids.

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