34 years as a spanking-free country

[OkToBeTakei]

Making it illegal will help change the cultural ideas about spanking. People bitched and moaned about car seat laws when that started, but making it illegal to drive around with your kids sitting in the back seat sharing seat belts went a long way in helping change how people viewed car seat safety. No it won't happen overnight with spanking and there will always be people who break the law, but if made illegal, most people would eventually get over it and find other ways.

So what do they do in Sweden if someone hits their child's hand for reaching for a knife? Do people just not do that or are they punished in some way?

Arbitrarily just enforcing a law does not change cultural thinking. Showing how unrestrained children are injured in a car at 30mph via public commercials, safety campaigns is what educated, not just making it a law. Sure people moaned about it. But they knew WHY they were doing it. The same needs to occur regarding smacking. Here the NSPCC does a similar campaign in regards to this, along with shouting at kids. Most people would have a stronger visceral reaction to that campaign than actually knowing it was illegal to smack. I had to look the law up for instance. But that campaign left a strong impression.

Surely it would be better to educate on effective parenting rather than just making one aspect of bad parenting illegal. I would be concerned as to what measures which are legal could still harm a child yet be legal and be used by law-abiding misguided parents.

[formergothardite]

Of course offering public awareness on better ways to parent is going to help change the culture, but that needs to be along with making it illegal. There have been huge awareness campaigns about keeping your baby rear facing past on year and still most people in my area don't do it because it is legal to turn them at one year.

[ILoveJellybeans]

Both would be good :) It is very important that we change peoples views and educate people about how harmful it is to spank, alternatives to spanking which are better for children and evidence that children who arent spanked turn out okay, before banning it. It will help change peoples opinions about the new laws instead of make them carry on spanking and hide it.

Its amazing, 34 years. A whole generation of parents who grew up with no spanking. Most of the children born today will have parents who have never been spanked.

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

I find this interesting. Why do I have a responsibility to avoid violence? The world is a violent place. Avoiding doesn't make it go away.

I don't want to beat the crap out of my kid with a pvc pipe. I don't want to throw them down the stairs or into walls or anything like that. But at the same time, why should it be criminalized if I swat my kids hands if they reach for the stove or a knife or something like that? Or grabbing a child back from stepping into traffic, causing the child to be jerked back? I don't "spank" my kids. But I've slapped hands away from dangerous items.

Minors and rights- well, no, I don't think that minors should be afforded the full rights of adults. Minors do need someone to force them to do things that they might not want to do, like go to school. There's a reason why most states won't allow kids under 12 to be left home alone. They need supervision. They are incapable of making life decisions and taking care of themselves, therefore, they should not be afforded full rights under the law.

Are you purposely being disingenuous?

Yes, the world is a violent place, but we have laws as well as societal norms that say that we need to avoid violence to deal with problems. I don't mean "avoid" as in "don't talk about it" or "pretend it doesn't exist". I mean "don't be violent towards others". And certainly don't hit your kids just because there is violence everywhere. :roll:

I'm pretty sure you understand that "full protection under the law" does not mean "full rights under the law". The law needs to protect all its citizens from assault, not just those over 18. There is a difference between giving every citizen, regardless of age, protection of this sort, and giving everyone the right to vote, drive, or whatever else.

FUUUUCK, I promised myself I wouldn't get into discussions about this topic anymore. It's enraging. :angry-banghead:

[Cannelle]

The problem with hitting children is that there's an inequality in the balance of power. People with more power hitting people with less power. So until it's totally cool for your boss to hit you when you screw up at work, it shouldn't be okay for you to hit your kids, because it's the same. damn. thing.

[Arete]

You are never going to change the culture of spanking in this country if you come at it as a bunch of self righteous know-it-alls who accuse every parent who has ever spanked a kid of raising a psychopath. That is not going to work. Education in alternative discipline techniques may be slower and less immediately gratifying, but it has the advantage of having a hope in hell of working.

[Coconut Flan]

You are never going to change the culture of spanking in this country if you come at it as a bunch of self righteous know-it-alls who accuse every parent who has ever spanked a kid of raising a psychopath. That is not going to work. Education in alternative discipline techniques may be slower and less immediately gratifying, but it has the advantage of having a hope in hell of working.

Rational thought! What a concept to think accusing people with a self-righteous attitude will only turn them off just like fundie proselytizing doesn't usually work on people either. People need a buy in.

[Effie]

So what do they do in Sweden if someone hits their child's hand for reaching for a knife? Do people just not do that or are they punished in some way?

No, they don't get punished for that if it just happens at that one time. Let's say the parents did so repeatedly and it came to the attention of the CPS, then the CPS would look into it (but then there would also be a concern for neglect since you had put knives out for children to touch repeatedly). I used to be a social work student, when I had this sort of idealized image of what happens when parents hit a child. I imagined they could even go to jail for spankings, but that's not exactly true. Sure they could be sentenced to pay a fine. Most often the police let the social workers handle "the punishing". You can be required to take parenting classes and yadda yadda. If the parents don't follow those so-called voluntary interventions, then we have LVU (protective custody law). So if you refuse to take the parenting classes or/and if you continue spanking your child, we will use LVU and take the child away from you. But you are definitely given a chance first to improve. Sure, we have immediate LVUs but they can last just a day to week. If it comes to my attention that a child is being spanked I might put an immediate LVU on her/him but next instance will probably revoke it if the parents for example agree to willingly work with us to improve their family situation.

[debrand]

Before Sweden became a spanking free country what were the attitudes toward spanking?

[Effie]

Before Sweden became a spanking free country what were the attitudes toward spanking?

Well, I didn't live then, so I have no first-hand experience. I don't think my step-dad and his siblings were ever spanked (except for possibly in school). My mum's spanking experiences are irrelevant cause she wasn't raised here. I know that my biological dad's sister once mentioned it briefly, so it seems like she or/and her siblings were spanked. It's not something that older generations willingly like to discuss (at least that's the impression I have got). However, some social work history from the last decade: there was a time when social workers in Sweden even advised parents to spank disobedient children. I don't remember when that was, but obviously before 1979. It would be interesting to find out, but now I must sleep. Lol. Maybe Zoom knows better about the attitudes then? Zoom is probably asleep now though since it's 3 in the morning/night.

[terranova]

NZ passed an anti-smacking bill a few years ago, but we continue to have one of the highest rates of child abuse in the world. Sometimes it feels like there are abused, murdered, malnourished, tortured and neglected children in the news every week. I don't think the legislation has made a dent in child abuse at all.

[oil]

Spanking ilegal in Israel from 2000. So then my mother start yelling louder to us, and all the mothers do that too. Well, here its our tradition mothers like to yell a lot any way. For the spanking, its called "assault" if the mama wack the bottom even when the kid cant feel it thru the diaper when the kid running away from mama in the store or what ever, but no police care about that even its against the law. They police only make a criminal of the parents or of any one who beat the kid to pain.

[acheronbeach]

NZ passed an anti-smacking bill a few years ago, but we continue to have one of the highest rates of child abuse in the world. Sometimes it feels like there are abused, murdered, malnourished, tortured and neglected children in the news every week. I don't think the legislation has made a dent in child abuse at all.

Child abuse reflects poverty, poor education and cultural practice as much as it does poor choices by parents. Education has to accompany legislative change.

The criminal justice system - at least in my country - is one way to force parents to recognize a) their behaviour is not acceptable and is not universally tolerated, and b) connect them with supports in the community such as counselling and parenting classes.

[OkToBeTakei]

You are never going to change the culture of spanking in this country if you come at it as a bunch of self righteous know-it-alls who accuse every parent who has ever spanked a kid of raising a psychopath. That is not going to work. Education in alternative discipline techniques may be slower and less immediately gratifying, but it has the advantage of having a hope in hell of working.

:clap:

Took me three pages to try and say this :lol:

[LilMissMetaphor]

Isn't this one of the DToD (Dreaded Topics of Doom)?

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=15248

[OkToBeTakei]

Isn't this one of the DToD (Dreaded Topics of Doom)?

http://www.freejinger.org/forums/viewto ... 32&t=15248

Definitely :lol:

There again if it never got discussed nothing would happen to change it.

[salex]

It's not about enforcing it in the whole U.S. at once, but one state by state. Baby steps.

Start by attaching the amendment banning spanking in every state that is using the fetal pain excuse against abortion. If hurting a fetus is bad isn't hurting a born child as bad?

[docmom]

Start by attaching the amendment banning spanking in every state that is using the fetal pain excuse against abortion. If hurting a fetus is bad isn't hurting a born child as bad?

I believe in the fundie world the hierarchy is something like this:

God

Manly Man

Male Fetus

Female Fetus

Male child

Female child

Woman

So, clearly hurting a fetus (especially apparently a male fetus) is worse than hurting a child.

[Effie]

Omg I noticed that my mother country (Poland) has actually forbidden all sorts of spanking (in 2010). That's interesting considering it's the most Catholic country in Europe. Maybe Catholics don't use the rod verses though?

Anyway, I talked with my stepdad (55+) who doesn't remember any spanking. It doesn't seems like it was that common when he was a kid. In 1966, parent's right to spank their children, was removed from the law. While they longer had "the right" to spank their child, it wasn't exactly prohibited either. It wasn't until 1979 that spanking by parents was outlawed. In 1958, spanking was outlawed in schools.

[moodygirl86]

UK here. The problem is, this is a very black and white topic for many. A lot of people assume if you don't hit kids, you're not disciplining them. As if that's the only form of discipline there is, which frankly says more about the pro-hitter than it does about the anti-hitter. A bit like when somebody told me that because I don't agree with capital punishment that I must want murderers and rapists to be free to rape and murder, or that if I don't agree with the BNP then I must want Britain to be taken over by radical Islam...

[martian]

A change in the law changes the ground you're fighting on. I think in the U.S., people tend to be compliant to the law and, once having gotten used to it, begin to view non-compliance very negatively and blame the victim harshly when there's a bad outcome thus increasing the social pressure to conform. You see this with carseat laws. Change was probably happening very gradually anyway, but the law moved cultural change along at a faster clip. Not putting a baby in a carseat is just appalling behavior now, but it was nothing at all when I was a kid. At my grandmother's wake, one of my uncles shared with me his fond memories of tossing toddler me into the front seat of my grandfather's muscle car and speeding around on the country back roads, how I'd be shrieking with laughter and jumping around. I have very fond memories of riding unsecured in the open bed of my grandfather's pick-up. They used to sit me back there to mind the groceries. Nowadays, that would be completely shocking to see, and I promise you that same uncle wouldn't even consider getting behind the wheel of his car without his grandchildren being carefully secured in the best carseats money can buy. The thing is, we do have fond memories because it really was fun. With fun times greatly outnumbering bad outcomes and bad outcomes mostly viewed as happenstance bad luck, I think change would've been an uphill battle and would have happened at a much slower rate without the carseat laws.

To an extent, all of that would also be true for laws banning spanking, imo. Not that it's fun (for most people) to smack their kids, but people haven't felt a huge amount of pressure to question it when the outcomes seem fine (for most people). Even so, there is a gradual cultural shift taking place. That's why the fundies are so shrill on the subject, the tide is turning on what is considered within bounds.

I was thinking of going into more detail comparing what I remember of acceptable or, at least commonplace, family violence compared to today, but I can't. Just not up for it right now, I need to be in a positive frame of mind today. But cultural change without a law to force the issue will be very slow in a society the size of the U.S. Even for me, planning to never hit my kids and trying out non-coercive parenting, I believe my personal exposure to family violence distorts my views of what's acceptable parenting. Hopefully, for my kids, any level of violence will just be incomprehensible and completely unacceptable.

[Soldevi]

Omg I noticed that my mother country (Poland) has actually forbidden all sorts of spanking (in 2010). That's interesting considering it's the most Catholic country in Europe. Maybe Catholics don't use the rod verses though?

Anyway, I talked with my stepdad (55+) who doesn't remember any spanking. It doesn't seems like it was that common when he was a kid. In 1966, parent's right to spank their children, was removed from the law. While they longer had "the right" to spank their child, it wasn't exactly prohibited either. It wasn't until 1979 that spanking by parents was outlawed. In 1958, spanking was outlawed in schools.

Europe is mostly spanking-free, that is, by law. Attitudes and practice are another thing, I found a petition wanting to change the law, petitioner wants to have a right to freely use physical punishment at home because "it is not violence". Sigh. Thankfully only 35 people had signed that. In Finland spanking was outlawed in schools in 1914 but alas, it wasn't until 1983/84 when corporal punishment was prohibited by law (well, second country in the world, but still...).

[salex]

A change in the law changes the ground you're fighting on. I think in the U.S., people tend to be compliant to the law and, once having gotten used to it, begin to view non-compliance very negatively and blame the victim harshly when there's a bad outcome thus increasing the social pressure to conform. You see this with carseat laws. Change was probably happening very gradually anyway, but the law moved cultural change along at a faster clip. Not putting a baby in a carseat is just appalling behavior now, but it was nothing at all when I was a kid. At my grandmother's wake, one of my uncles shared with me his fond memories of tossing toddler me into the front seat of my grandfather's muscle car and speeding around on the country back roads, how I'd be shrieking with laughter and jumping around. I have very fond memories of riding unsecured in the open bed of my grandfather's pick-up. They used to sit me back there to mind the groceries. Nowadays, that would be completely shocking to see, and I promise you that same uncle wouldn't even consider getting behind the wheel of his car without his grandchildren being carefully secured in the best carseats money can buy. The thing is, we do have fond memories because it really was fun. With fun times greatly outnumbering bad outcomes and bad outcomes mostly viewed as happenstance bad luck, I think change would've been an uphill battle and would have happened at a much slower rate without the carseat laws.

I remember when my dad installed seatbelts in my mom's 1964 Dodge Dart, since it and many other cars of the era didn't have them from the factory. And carseats back then were not remotely like car seats today--certainly not much safer than roaming around the car freely!

And I was spanked a couple of times but not often and not hard--I remember 2 times...and I remember what I did to earn it--and even now, don't see it as harsh. But my parents and grandparents were wimpy spankers. My dad tried spanking my brother once to try to get him not to climb out of his bed (he was very young and they were afraid he'd fall) but my dad is too tenderhearted, so he was unwilling to spank to stop the climbing when it was obvious that it was just part of who my brother was and where he was developmentally--he was ready to be out of the baby bed (the Pearls would say my baby brother won, my parents said it was time for the toddler bed) Oddly enough, despite not being beaten into submission, my brother turned out quite well.

Neither of my siblings who have children spanked their kids.

[Sumeri]

Another problem I see with banning spanking altogether in the US is that we have so many cultures where hitting kids is seen as something that's not just encouraged, but funny. I remember family parties where my son's father and his cousins would hysterically recount beatings with shoes, flying chanclas hitting them in the head, etc. I mean, just look at any George Lopez parenting bit. There are many cultures here that look at spanking as something that you just DO when you're a parent. And because they all turned out okay (better than okay, in most cases) my son's family looks at any discussion about this as entitled psycho-babble. Hell, they tell stories about their sweet little granny chasing them around the table with a BUTCHER KNIFE for smart talking.

[debrand]

Another problem I see with banning spanking altogether in the US is that we have so many cultures where hitting kids is seen as something that's not just encouraged, but funny. I remember family parties where my son's father and his cousins would hysterically recount beatings with shoes, flying chanclas hitting them in the head, etc. I mean, just look at any George Lopez parenting bit. There are many cultures here that look at spanking as something that you just DO when you're a parent. And because they all turned out okay (better than okay, in most cases) my son's family looks at any discussion about this as entitled psycho-babble. Hell, they tell stories about their sweet little granny chasing them around the table with a BUTCHER KNIFE for smart talking.

Yes.

My friend tells this supposedly funny story about her son getting a barebutt spanking from her FIL and everyone laughs. I dearly love my friend but it isn't humorous to me.

Some people report spanking stories as if they are war stories that make them proud. I know people who brag about getting hit with a switch and how they never dared back talk their parents. The same people will gladly tell stories about how they slipped out their windows or snuck around behind their parents back.

I think that some people who were spanked end up with superficial respect and not a lot of deeper respect but they can't always tell the difference. That isn't true of everyone, of course.