34 years as a spanking-free country

[Effie]

I'm just throwing this sentiment out there. On Monday, spanking by parents, has been illegal for 34 whole years in Sweden. At the same time spanking has remained legal in countries such as U.S. and U.K. where many of you come from. What are you doing about it? Do you start petitions? Do you organize anti-spanking demonstrations? Is it wrong of me to ask you to more actively DO SOMETHING? Or do more than what you are currently doing? I don't mean to bitch-slap you. I know that many of you do a lot to improve your societies. I'm just asking you to focus more on this issue., because it's still as urgent today as it was 34 years ago. I can't accept this. Can you?

[OkToBeTakei]

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications ... 8406/28339

It does not go far enough :( But it certainly is better than no ban.

[hywelis]

I just wanted to say that I love Sweden for the decision to be a country where it is forbidden to hit children. My kudos to Swedes for making it so.

Thank you.

Hywelis

[docmom]

According to Michael Pearl, kids who grow up without spanking will end up as lazy, uncontrolled, hell raisers who will drive their country into the ground. Well, just look where no spanking has gotten Sweden! I mean just look at the standard of living! Look at the anarchy! Look at all the angry mobs!

The trouble is that many people in this country (US) see spanking as their god-given (demanded even) right. The best we can do is to try to start this at the state level in the more liberal states and see if it catches on. But it's worth the fight!

[debrand]

I wouldn't even begin to know how to discuss the issue with my family members. When my kids were younger, I spanked and decided that it was not effective. It took me a long time to come to the realization that spanking was useless.

What changed me was not just experience but discussing the issue with people online. Also, reading about studies done on children who were spanked influenced me too.

[Effie]

I just wanted to say that I love Sweden for the decision to be a country where it is forbidden to hit children. My kudos to Swedes for making it so.

Thank you.

Hywelis

I just wish that more could follow. :( It doesn't make sense to me. It has been illegal here for my whole life-time and even longer. Longer than even I can imagine, you know? That's a very long time.

OkToBeTakei, yes - I've heard that it's illegal to hit/spank children with items in U.K. Just with bare hands? But still, it stings. And it frightens. The child's mental well-being is at risk (and I consider that to be the worst part of spanking).

[Effie]

According to Michael Pearl, kids who grow up without spanking will end up as lazy, uncontrolled, hell raisers who will drive their country into the ground. Well, just look where no spanking has gotten Sweden! I mean just look at the standard of living! Look at the anarchy! Look at all the angry mobs!

The trouble is that many people in this country (US) see spanking as their god-given (demanded even) right. The best we can do is to try to start this at the state level in the more liberal states and see if it catches on. But it's worth the fight!

YES! :D

Maybe it's possible to educate people about the consequences of spanking? I noticed that some Americans actually had re-blogged one of my blog-entries about spanking. Not that I'm naive to think that the people who re-blogged it weren't agreeing with me from the start. It seems like my blog has become an anti-spanking-blog. It is just one issue that makes me very angry and upset, because it makes no sense to me. Also I remember when my uncle in Poland spanked my little-sister. That experience was enough for me. And as a 10-11-year-old I felt ashamed and guilty about it, because I had not intervened. It took me until my mid-20s to get rid of that guilt. My sister blamed me for it (and I understand why she did, but it tormented me). She has never forgiven our uncle for that one spanking episode.

[Cran]

Technically, spanking isn't allowed in Germany, either, but there seems to be a high tolerance for doing it anyway. I really don't know what could be done about it, because parents who hit their children on a regular basis are either inherently abusive or, well, to put it mildly, not interested in learning better.

My own mother hit me out of helplessness because she didn't know how to deal with know-it-all-child that had never been taught to adhere to rules or see parents/teachers as an authority. Didn't help at all. I remember telling her while she hit me that she wasn't allowed to do so by law, and her answering she "..was so sick of me anyway she'd be glad if I was taken to live in a shelter". Yeah, still rankles.

[OkToBeTakei]

I just wish that more could follow. :( It doesn't make sense to me. It has been illegal here for my whole life-time and even longer. Longer than even I can imagine, you know? That's a very long time.

OkToBeTakei, yes - I've heard that it's illegal to hit/spank children with items in U.K. Just with bare hands? But still, it stings. And it frightens. The child's mental well-being is at risk (and I consider that to be the worst part of spanking).

Yes it certainly does not go far enough. Under three it is illegal to hit. The biggest problem in regards to legislation is enforcing it. Behind closed doors etc. Even the change in law here changed the culture. Compared to say twenty years ago when it would be common say to see a child getting it's bum smacked in public, that would be extremely rare and tends to invoke a really negative reaction now.

Whilst it is illegal in Sweden as it should be everywhere I would put it out there though the fact is, it is a law that is difficult to enforce and more difficult to prove. That whilst it can inform a culture it is no guarantee against abuse. I would still rather it was in place here.

[jaynie]

IIRC there was a recommendation by pediatric specialists in Canada to get a ban, but it fizzled out. If (When!) we get a less shite government in power, I'd say there would be a possibility of it succeeding, but there would be a lot of resistance.

Spanking is one of my hot-button issues because it ought to be a non-issue. Every single bit of research done shows that it is non-effective at best, and immensely harmful at worst. And I will never for the life of my understand why hitting a one year old is abusive, hitting a teenager is a abusive, and hitting an adult is abusive, but hitting a 2-12 year old is just dandy.

[Effie]

Yes it certainly does not go far enough. Under three it is illegal to hit. The biggest problem in regards to legislation is enforcing it. Behind closed doors etc. Even the change in law here changed the culture. Compared to say twenty years ago when it would be common say to see a child getting it's bum smacked in public, that would be extremely rare and tends to invoke a really negative reaction now.

Whilst it is illegal in Sweden as it should be everywhere I would put it out there though the fact is, it is a law that is difficult to enforce and more difficult to prove. That whilst it can inform a culture it is no guarantee against abuse. I would still rather it was in place here.

I think the acceptance for spanking has changed in my mother country as well, but I'm not sure... At least I haven't seen any kid get smacked in the public the last years, but I haven't exactly been there that much since my aunt passed away. I have only been there a few days now and then the last five years to visit my granny. But as a kid I was shocked the first time I saw a kid get spanked by his parent. I thought she did something criminal, and I was very angry. Mum had to explain to me why hitting was "okay" in Poland but not in Sweden.

[keen23]

Honestly, I think legislation outlawing spanking would be both intrusive on personal rights as well as almost impossible to enforce in a country the size of the United States.

[Cran]

Why is it intrusive on personal rights to make a law that protects children from a practice that is known to be harmful?

Perhaps we should not make laws against sexual abuse of children, either?

Enacting it, alas, is as you said an entirely different issue.

[Effie]

It's not about enforcing it in the whole U.S. at once, but one state by state. Baby steps.

[acheronbeach]

Honestly, I think legislation outlawing spanking would be both intrusive on personal rights as well as almost impossible to enforce in a country the size of the United States.

Unfortunately, a lot of criminal behaviour is difficult to enforce. That doesn't mean that such behaviour shouldn't be criminalized.

I cannot in any way see how it intrudes on personal rights.

[debrand]

Honestly, I think legislation outlawing spanking would be both intrusive on personal rights as well as almost impossible to enforce in a country the size of the United States.

I don't know why a law against spanking would be more intrusive than other laws but it might be difficult to enforce everywhere. It would be a good step in the right direction.

Would such a law make the Pearls' advice illegal?

[Koala]

Honestly, I think legislation outlawing spanking would be both intrusive on personal rights

Yeah, it's totally intrusive to have someone take away your "right" to hit your kid! Imagine. <----extreme sarcasm :roll: I can't even...

Difficult to enforce? Maybe, but so are domestic violence laws. It still happens, but at least there are legal repercussions for those that can't seem to get by in life without hitting others.

[Effie]

But is it that far away for U.S. to ratify The Child Rights Convention? Why does it take that long? I mean, they signed it in the 90s. What happened there? Not that ratifying such a convention would make spanking illegal... but maybe spanking with implements would be forbidden?

[OkToBeTakei]

They do not want to outlaw guns that kill children in schools. Something that doesn't kill children I would imagine not even being on some's radar. Sadly :cry:

[formergothardite]

Honestly, I think legislation outlawing spanking would be both intrusive on personal rights as well as almost impossible to enforce in a country the size of the United States.

Why should parents have the personal right to hit their children?

[August]

I publically shame anyone I see doing it, and I educate people.

But, it's a country where not only are the majority totally fine with their neighbor dying of uncontrolled diabetes or becoming homeless because of an ovarian cyst, they also think it's fine to shout any sort of evil hate speech in public. It's not just legal to beat your child, it's legal in many schools to beat children. It will never ever be illegal in the US, it would require social change on the most basic level for a majority of the country. Most Americans just don't care that much for people outside their own intimates and they're too paranoid/obsessed with 'freedom' to impose decent standards of behaviour on the whole society.

[August]

I don't know why a law against spanking would be more intrusive than other laws but it might be difficult to enforce everywhere. It would be a good step in the right direction.

Would such a law make the Pearls' advice illegal?

I don't think so, free speech and all that.

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

Effie, I hear you. It's an uphill battle here though (but I agree that it's one worth fighting). As we see even here every time child abuse apologists come out of the woodwork, American society functions largely under the belief that children are property. The conceptualization of the notion of individual rights seems to assume that one's individual rights include the rights to dictate what happens to any minors under one's care (almost) no matter what. Pointing out that a child is also an individual with rights, in whom the larger society has an interest, makes people crazy.

And forget trying to advocate for the rights of children as a childless person. I've been told countless times that I have no right to comment on the issue because I don't have kids, and that once I have kids I will "understand". Even though I'm pretty sure I can say with confidence that I'll never throw my kid down the stairs or lock them in the basement without food, no matter how angry I get - yet I should believe that I won't be able to keep myself from hitting him/her? Fuck that.

NO YOU DON'T HAVE A PERSONAL RIGHT TO HIT YOUR CHILD. You don't have the right to hit ANYONE. Your responsibility to avoid violence does not stop at the front door of your home - in fact, you have an even greater responsibility to avoid it when you are raising children who will one day, ideally, become contributing members of society.

[Effie]

They do not want to outlaw guns that kill children in schools. Something that doesn't kill children I would imagine not even being on some's radar. Sadly :cry:

You are right. But you could also say that it does kill children. I mean, when the children develop mental ill-health and kill themselves. Maybe that sounds like a far stretch? I think not. Mental ill-health is very, very serious.

Why the people in my spanking-free country have relatively bad mental health is another issue. Because of shit like pressure/demands maybe? It's not because we were not hit as kids at least. The thing is, we are feeling this bad in Sweden without the spanking. Imagine how terrible kids must feel with all this other shit (pressure, demands these days) plus the spanking.

[Cran]

I don't think so, free speech and all that.

I don't know anything about US-law, but theoretically, it is possible to make certain forms of hate speech illegal. We have, for example, a law forbidding denial of the Holocaust, because doing so defames the victims.