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GeoBQn

Bontrager Bar Mitzvah

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louisa05

I attended a fundy lite wedding that had a canopy and a "Hebrew" blessing which was just a randomly chosen Psalm. Neither the bride nor groom had Jewish roots at all. Had one or the other come from a Jewish family, I could have understood. At the reception, a woman at our table was raving about how much she loved the canopy (which was decorated with Christmas lights...) and wanted her son and daughter-in-law to be to do it. Finally, I told her it is a Jewish tradition and her enthusiasm faded. She became puzzled as this was a Christian wedding and even suggested that perhaps it was not appropriate. I was glad I spoke up so that she didn't try to talk her son into co-opting Judaic tradition at his wedding.

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auntsally28

A Christmas chuppah......how very um...precious?

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Mela99

...what exactly happens at a Christian "passover seder"? Do I even wanna know?

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Rachel333

I've never been to a real Seder, but at the one I went to we tasted the various dishes and talked about what they symbolize. I'm pretty sure there was added Jesus stuff and at the end we washed each others' feet.

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tuckerphez

Fellow jews, I've just thought of a way to stop the appropriation of our religion!

We should start saying, "Every time a fundie has a bar mitzvah (or a seder), Jesus aborts a baby."

That should stop them immediately.

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GeoBQn
...what exactly happens at a Christian "passover seder"? Do I even wanna know?

If you google the term, you can find a lot of "Christian haggadah" guides that all have different brands of crazy. The most common changes are ones that claim things like the wine and matzot represent Jesus. Other things I've seen include eating the meal standing to represent how the Israelites were in a hurry to leave Egypt (normative Jewish seders are designed to symbolize luxury and leisure), throwing in references to the book of Revelations, and the children washing the feet of the father to symbolize servanthood (Foot washing in Judaism is very limited to Levis washing the feet of Cohanim on specific occasions. Also, did they miss the part about how the whole freakin' holiday is to celebrate being freed from servitude?!?)

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Rachel333
the children washing the feet of the father to symbolize servanthood (Foot washing in Judaism is very limited to Levis washing the feet of Cohanim on specific occasions. Also, did they miss the part about how the whole freakin' holiday is to celebrate being freed from servitude?!?)

Not defending a Christian Seder, but I wouldn't say that's really what Christian foot washing is about. It's symbolizing that we're all equal and here to help each other, and if the fundies are just having kids wash the father's feet (which I have never seen, but wouldn't totally surprise me), they're very much missing the point.

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GeoBQn

Here's the photo album where I got it from. It looks like there is one picture of a girl getting her foot washed, but the others are of women or children washing the feet of older men. The pictures have titles of "Servanthood" and "Serving Abba." Either way, it is NOT appropriate for a seder, or pretty much any Jewish occasion other than the very few where Levis wash the feet of Cohanim before ceremonies. (My husband is a Levi, so he was explaining it to me.)

tentstakeministries.net/pictures/passover/

Also, the tallit is not warn at a seder. They seem to love just throwing the tallit and shofar blowing into every occasion.

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Rachel333

There's a dad washing his daughter's feet, too, which is good to see. It's not servanthood in a way that I would see clashing with the celebration of freedom, just as a principle (certainly it isn't part of a Seder, though!)

Those photos... wow. That's pretty bad. For some reason I'm finding their Sukkot photos the most cringeworthy. For one thing, the very first photo is titled "Yeshua born in a sukkah." Is that some kind of manger scene?

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No Cure for Stupid

And on a related note, why do so many fundies think their precious blessings can sing? The Bontrager Family Singers = nails on a chalkboard.

I agree. I've been able to stand the Duggars' violins, but the Bontragers...oh, God, it was painful.

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GeoBQn
There's a dad washing his daughter's feet, too, which is good to see. It's not servanthood in a way that I would see clashing with the celebration of freedom, just as a principle (certainly it isn't part of a Seder, though!)

Those photos... wow. That's pretty bad. For some reason I'm finding their Sukkot photos the most cringeworthy. For one thing, the very first photo is titled "Yeshua born in a sukkah." Is that some kind of manger scene?

Thanks for explaining the concept of servanthood in Christianity. I still think it's not something that should be at a seder, since the concept isn't present in Judaism. At the seder, part of the ritual is that we are all equal and living in luxury. We have a fancy dinner on our best dishes and silverware, we drink wine, we recline while we eat and drink, we have pillows on our chairs, we dip some food in other food as if they are appetizers. Even if the foot washing was mutual, the moment of another person lowering themselves to another person and doing a task that's extremely humble just doesn't fit what the night is supposed to be about.

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lagenialester

Thanks for explaining the concept of servanthood in Christianity. I still think it's not something that should be at a seder, since the concept isn't present in Judaism. At the seder, part of the ritual is that we are all equal and living in luxury. We have a fancy dinner on our best dishes and silverware, we drink wine, we recline while we eat and drink, we have pillows on our chairs, we dip some food in other food as if they are appetizers. Even if the foot washing was mutual, the moment of another person lowering themselves to another person and doing a task that's extremely humble just doesn't fit what the night is supposed to be about.

GeoBQn, ITA with everything you are saying! What frustrates me is that none of this matters to them. I've started trying to ignore any sort of cultural appropriation of Jewish traditions by Christians because part of me feels like they're doing it for attention and if we don't get mad about it, they'll stop doing it. (I know, wishful thinking....) It just makes me so angry! They don't even care about the actual purpose of the ritual or holiday. Also there's that part of me in the back of my mind screaming about how Christians tortured my ancestors for performing these very same rituals and now it's ok to do them because it's "cute" and "fun".

I have a cousin whose wife is most definitely becoming more and more fundie by the day (from the non-Jewish side of the family), and I swear to you, the day they appropriate any Jewish rituals is the day I cut off all communication with them.

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gardenvarietycitizen

So I'm assuming these people don't know any actual Jewish people? I can't imagine they've seen any normal celebrations of any of the holidays or been to any actual bar mitzvah events?

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GeoBQn

They live about 15 miles away from Iowa City, where there is a Jewish community, but I see no indication that they go there much or have any friends outside of their own religious circle.

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Arete

Thanks for explaining the concept of servanthood in Christianity. I still think it's not something that should be at a seder, since the concept isn't present in Judaism. At the seder, part of the ritual is that we are all equal and living in luxury. We have a fancy dinner on our best dishes and silverware, we drink wine, we recline while we eat and drink, we have pillows on our chairs, we dip some food in other food as if they are appetizers. Even if the foot washing was mutual, the moment of another person lowering themselves to another person and doing a task that's extremely humble just doesn't fit what the night is supposed to be about.

The only foot washing in the NT is done by Jesus. It shows a "greater power" washing the feet of the "humble". So traditionally in medieval Christianity a King or a Queen would wash the feet of common people during Holy Week as a symbolic act of humility. The fundies can't bear to look at where these traditions actually come from in Christianity *cough* Catholicism *cough*. They also don't have a leg to stand on in terms of having a child (one with less power) symbolically wash the feet of a father (one with more power). That has never been what that ritual was about. But hey, why not appropriate one of Judaism's most important rituals and bastardize?

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Mela99

I think they all believe because Jesus was Jewish, they're all Jews by proxy or something. Didn't Candace Cameron say she supported Jews because she was "an adopted Jew by Jesus" or some such rot?

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darkplumaged
So I'm assuming these people don't know any actual Jewish people? I can't imagine they've seen any normal celebrations of any of the holidays or been to any actual bar mitzvah events?

I seriously doubt any of these people has ever met an actual Jew, unless they go to Messianic congregations with former Jews. (And even then, I don't count those people as Jews. So no.)

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patsymae

In the 90s, where I live, which is about 50-50 Jewish/non-Jews, there was a fad for "interfaith Seders," some hosted at Jewish institutions, and some Christian churches held "seders" on Holy Thursday. I think at the time it was a well-intentioned attempt by Christians (I think mostly Catholics and mainstream Protestants) to, in a befuddled way, try to encourage dialogue and discourage anti-Semitism by emphasizing common roots/commonalities. The absurdity became pretty apparent and I haven't heard of any interfaith or Christian "seders" in at least two decades.

I admit I don't know much about the bible, but I guess I always assumed foot washing was a sign of hospitality--in that part of the world, if someone made it to your house, their feet were probably in bad shape and washing their feet would be a way of showing that you welcomed them and cared about their comfort and honored them as a guest. But I'm just guessing.

I know that foot washing is practiced by the Amish-- in a ritualistic way--and it was one of the issues that caused them to split from the Mennonites. I think that it's supposed to express humility--in the higher sense of the term, not degrading oneself to serve a better--and emphasize equality.

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