Mormon woman dies after 6th child (complications)

[rewoodley]

What happned to the mormon woman is horrible and preventable. On Duggars Blog, they posted teh ideo of the Duggars on the chiild-free video. Comments made my stomach turn. One read it is so sad how women see childbearing as a 'burden'. Where is the blessing when something like ths happens? I pointed out it is sad when women think motherhood as their only ID. If something like this happened to Michelle Duggar or Kelly Bates, what would they think then?

A littel OT-I'm not saying there aren't competent midwives. I would rather err on the side of caution than take chances with an under educated SOTDRT 'midwife'. You have to consider the fact many women go without prental care and are high risk without knwoing until the last minute. Midwives aren't medical profesisonals unless they are CPM who work in hospitals under doctors.

Where I am in Canada midwives go through a 4 year university program and are licensed, they are medical professionals and they are not "under" a doctor they have their own practice which you need to apply to be a client of early like the night you do the deed in some areas.(any woman who has no prenatal care they get whoever the OB on duty at the hospital is, by that point midwives are full) The midwives have a scope of practice and they will refer you to a Dr. if it is indicated, and at appointments that you have with the midwife you spend about 30 to 40 minutes with the midwife as opposed to the 3 minutes the the OB (I have had a pregnancy with an OB and a second and now third with midwives) the care is so different, I received more care with the midwife (who had privileges and was well known at the hospital) than the OB who did not have the professionalism to actually attend my birth... (which they had induced on their own schedule)

I have never known of a midwife who was so under educated that it was dangerous (apparently there are plenty of them in the US)

I am not meaning to be rude (honest) just that in my experience midwives are sooo much better at caring for the woman and baby than the OB who thinks that they are god and can tell the woman what to do with their bodies as opposed to the midwife who actually listens and helps the woman do what her body is telling her to.

I would never tell anyone to go to a "midwife" who has no real education and does not carry with her supplies that range from Oxygen to something that will stop a hemorrhage (at least till transport to a hospital is possible).

sorry if my reply is a bit disjointed... trying to type while running after 2 boys while trying to pack for a trip

[roddma]

Oops I meant CNM. It is the lay midwives CPMs who think they can take the place of skilled OBGYNs. A few bad OBGYNs doesn't mean to dismiss all of them. The AMA speaks out against planned home births. It isn't telling a woman to do with her body but helping her make sound choices not based on current trends at the moment.

[Mama Mia]

Oops I meant CNM. It is the lay midwives CPMs who think they can take the place of skilled OBGYNs. A few bad OBGYNs doesn't mean to dismiss all of them. The AMA speaks out against planned home births. It isn't telling a woman to do with her body but helping her make sound choices not based on current trends at the moment.

Yes, I'm sure the AMA has no vested interest whatsoever in promoting their services :roll:

I had all hospital births, most of my family members had hospital births. I can tell you that the best birth experiences anyone in my family had were the births attended by mid-wives ( two in hospital, one at home)

[LadyBlue]

Oops I meant CNM. It is the lay midwives CPMs who think they can take the place of skilled OBGYNs. A few bad OBGYNs doesn't mean to dismiss all of them. The AMA speaks out against planned home births. It isn't telling a woman to do with her body but helping her make sound choices not based on current trends at the moment.

You clearly don't know much about midwifery. Midwives have no desire to take the place of OBs, OBs are surgeons who know absolutely nothing about birth that hasn't been interfered with. The majority of OBs working today have NEVER seen a birth that didn't have at least one intervention (AROM, pit, epidural, etc.) If I need a cesarean, I want the most skilled OB with the most practice doing cesareans I can get.

If I want a natural birth, I want a midwife, they know how to deal with it and most of them actually keep up with the research and practice evidence based care, unlike OBs. And you couldn't pay me to see a CNM unless I knew for a fact it was someone who only took CNM because they couldn't get midwifery education any other way. They're just as lacking in evidence based care as OBs, only they don't have the surgical skills to "fix" what they screw up.

I have some issues with CPMs too, not least that they're trying to control midwifery and become the only legal non-nurse midwife option with fairly minimal standards and few-no requirements for continuing education. Unfortunately regulating midwives, like regulating any other profession, merely limits women's choices without really doing much to get rid of the crappy ones. You'd think we'd have learned that lesson with how impossible it is to get rid of bad doctors unless they commit "real" crimes like that guy who carved his name in that poor woman.

The AMA and ACOG are totally telling women what to do with their bodies. They don't want the competition; that's why they demonized and tried to destroy midwifery in the first place. THEY are the ones making homebirth dangerous because of their refusal to work with midwives, allowing for safe and easy transfer of care if needed. The number of women who transfer from a homebirth; usually for an epidural or other minor reason, but it shouldn't matter why they transfer, who are verbally and physically abused and even forcibly separated from their newborns is abhorrent.

Either women have the right to choose what happens to their own bodies or they don't. That includes birthing choices as well as the choice whether to carry a pregnancy or not. Whether a woman wants a hospital birth with an OB, a CNM, a homebirth with a CPM or "lay" midwife or even an unassisted birth should be entirely her decision. The only thing other people should have to do with other women's birth choices is making all options as safe as possible and making the act of transferring from a non-hospital birth safe, both physically and mentally.. ACOG is actively making it more dangerous because a lot of women put off transferring due to fear of the treatment they'll receive because so many women have been treated so abusively.

[roddma]

Midwives demonize modern medicine that save countless lives each year. Maybe OB GYNs and midwives need to stop demonizing each other and find a middle ground. It isn't a matter of telling anyoen what to do with their bodies but helping them make informed choices.

[VaSportsMom]

My mom had 3 C's in 4 years (she blames me because she was 90 lbs and I was 10 lbs & frank breech - she swears I "came out showing my ass to the world and haven't stopped since") and her doctor told her that she would likely not survive a 4th. She elected to have a TL since she would be in the OR anyway. My father's Fundy family did not react well at all and that proved to be the push my father needed to walk away from the church for good. He couldn't accept any religion that would prefer his wife risk dying for a 4th child rather than live for the 3 she already had.

[Funky Chicken]

You clearly don't know much about midwifery. Midwives have no desire to take the place of OBs, OBs are surgeons who know absolutely nothing about birth that hasn't been interfered with. The majority of OBs working today have NEVER seen a birth that didn't have at least one intervention (AROM, pit, epidural, etc.) If I need a cesarean, I want the most skilled OB with the most practice doing cesareans I can get..

And YOU clearly don't know much about medicine, let alone obstetrics and gynaecology. I'd respect your position a whole lot more if you added the disclaimer "in my personal and highly biased opinion/experience".

The AMA and ACOG are totally telling women what to do with their bodies. They don't want the competition; that's why they demonized and tried to destroy midwifery in the first place. THEY are the ones making homebirth dangerous because of their refusal to work with midwives, allowing for safe and easy transfer of care if needed. The number of women who transfer from a homebirth; usually for an epidural or other minor reason, but it shouldn't matter why they transfer, who are verbally and physically abused and even forcibly separated from their newborns is abhorrent.

Either women have the right to choose what happens to their own bodies or they don't. That includes birthing choices as well as the choice whether to carry a pregnancy or not. Whether a woman wants a hospital birth with an OB, a CNM, a homebirth with a CPM or "lay" midwife or even an unassisted birth should be entirely her decision. The only thing other people should have to do with other women's birth choices is making all options as safe as possible and making the act of transferring from a non-hospital birth safe, both physically and mentally.. ACOG is actively making it more dangerous because a lot of women put off transferring due to fear of the treatment they'll receive because so many women have been treated so abusively.

To the bolded: I'd say most doctors couldn't give a pair of foetid dingo's kidneys about "competition" - they just selfishly want to minimise risk, and, you know, death, brain damage, etc (not to say that it wasn't different in the past, though).

However, maybe it's because I'm an Australian doctor, but I've almost 100% seen OBs and midwives working together for the good of the mother and babe (and birthing centres attached to hospitals, where delivery can occur in a home-like atmosphere, are very popular). I have met the occasional, slightly "aggressive" midwife, but more due to him/her being a forthright advocate for her patient and her wishes, and never in a way that would have affected delivery of care. I've never met anyone with issues such as you're frothing on about, but they're probably at home, birthing with Baby-Killer Barrett (is the body count 5 now, or 6? I can never keep up).

Of course you'll probably say I'm part of some conspiracy or other...

[duplessis3]

That is because you are Australian. You have NO idea what birthing in the US is like. Do you think a 40% c section rate (this is the county that I live in, which does not have midwives as hospital option) is normal? Good? Medically necessary?

Maybe we should temper what we say with what country we are in and how medical care is paid for. I know in my county there are obs who outright admit and tell patients "I have a golf date at 4 pm. If you want me to deliver your baby, you need to have a c section now." And that they like c sections because they don't like having to get up in the middle of the night. My current gyn is a gyn only because (he's originally from So Africa) he couldnt stand the way obstetrics is practiced in the US.

[NotALoserLikeYou]

The AMA views childbirth as a potential disaster, something that should always be medically managed. Midwives usually view it as a natural process that the body was designed to do. Midwives do not "demonize modern medicine" :/ they simply promote natural birth for low risk clients who want it. Plenty of midwives work with doctors.

[AVENues]

I don't know either, why do so many people think of midwives as sorceresses that draw circles around women in labor and dance barefoot and pray to Sumerian moon gods if something goes wrong. People really do demonize home births.

[sadie673]

I had my first two babies in America and the second two in Germany. The difference was night and day! There are far fewer unnecessary interventions in German hospitals. You are attended by a midwife and your case is overseen by a physician, just in case it's needed. They discourage pain medications and epidural s and instead use aromatherapy, massage, positional changes, water, etc. I much preferred that to laying on my side, hooked to an IV pole and monitors for hours on end. It was a much more personal experience.

[formergothardite]

I don't know either, why do so many people think of midwives as sorceresses that draw circles around women in labor and dance barefoot and pray to Sumerian moon gods if something goes wrong. People really do demonize home births.

Probably the same reason some people seem to think that OBs know nothing about natural birth. Mine did and encouraged it. But then reality set in and I wanted the drugs because birth pain may be natural, but fuck that.

There are shitty midwives. There are shitty doctors. There are tragic homebirths. There are tragic hospital births. Birth is natural, but so is dying and having horrible things happen. Natural can be good but isn't always. Women should be able to give birth how they want without having people tell them that their home birth is dangerous or their interventions were totally unnecessary and they should have just toughed it out and gone natural.

[DrWhat]

You clearly don't know much about midwifery. Midwives have no desire to take the place of OBs, OBs are surgeons who know absolutely nothing about birth that hasn't been interfered with.

This is one Internet rumor that makes absolutely no sense. How can an OB understand birth complications and how to manage them if they do not understand how "normal" birth works? Do you really think that they learn LESS physiology (study of NORMAL biologic functions) in undergrad and medical school than a lay midwife?

The majority of OBs working today have NEVER seen a birth that didn't have at least one intervention (AROM, pit, epidural, etc.)

Another completely inaccurate rumor. During my 2 week labor and delivery rotation in medical school (that's all I had because I have no interest in OB) I participated in only about 40 births. Only about 5 of those were completely natural, but for 2 weeks that is far from NEVER. There is no way to understand "normal" birth without experiencing births that aren't normal too, and I would bet that any OB knows more about this process than a lay midwife, who likely can not even give you an accurate definition of what a hormone is.

If I want a natural birth, I want a midwife, they know how to deal with it and most of them actually keep up with the research and practice evidence based care, unlike OBs.

CPM training requires only a high school diploma and has no requirement for statistics education or how to evaluate scientific literature. So I am sure that there are good midwives out there that have evidence-based practice, but the fact is that most do not even have the training to even figure out which practices are evidence-based and which are not. In my opinion, many put much stock in "intuition" or simply read abstracts that have biased and poorly-supported conclusions and then repeat these conclusions to the ones that do not even read literature as gospel. I would be lying if I said that many OB practices came about without evidence to show they are helpful (enemas before labor, episiotomies), but when evidence did show that these practices were harmful, the vast majority of OBs changed their practices. Anyone who claims factual absolutes (birth is safe, c-sections are bad) is unlikely to be a good scientist as these are emotional value-judgements that are disturbingly black and white and do not leave room for critical evaluation of an individual situation or evidence that would challenge their validity. Doctors can be guilty of this kind of statement too, but we are taught to avoid this type of thinking, as opposed to midwives who encourage each other to speak this way.

The AMA and ACOG are totally telling women what to do with their bodies. They don't want the competition; that's why they demonized and tried to destroy midwifery in the first place.

See above about making blanket statements of factual absolutes. Midwife care is a fringe practice that poses no threat to the OB patient base. Most OBs can hardly fit in any new patients. There may have been shades of truth to this otherwise-sensationalistic statement 100 years ago, but that doesn't mean that every OB takes a blood oath to squash midwives upon licensure in 2013.

THEY are the ones making homebirth dangerous because of their refusal to work with midwives, allowing for safe and easy transfer of care if needed. The number of women who transfer from a homebirth; usually for an epidural or other minor reason, but it shouldn't matter why they transfer, who are verbally and physically abused and even forcibly separated from their newborns is abhorrent.

To claim that OBs are the ones making homebirth dangerous is ridiculous. Any woman planning a homebirth should have a backup OB planned if possible, and wither way, no professional OB would ever act the way you described to a transfer patient. Not to say that unprofessional OBs do not exist. Women who transfer are not uniformly verbally and physically abused as you describe.

I wholeheartedly believe in bodily autonomy and choice of birth place. There are many benefits to homebirth, many of which appeal to me. Safety is not one of those reasons. I agree that OBs as a whole have a much less caring demeanor and that the culture during training communication style that some might describe as bitchy, which is why many medical students dread their OB rotation. So if you care more about your "birth experience" than a healthy baby, knock yourself out because I do not deny that for many women homebirth is better in that regard. Being a patient sucks.

I agree that both sides need to stop demonizing each other with blanket judgements, but these are the kind of statements that cause OBs to discount midwifery completely.

[Rowan]

I don't know either, why do so many people think of midwives as sorceresses that draw circles around women in labor and dance barefoot and pray to Sumerian moon gods if something goes wrong. People really do demonize home births.

As someone whose good friend would have a 10 month old niece today if it wasn't for her sister wanting a homebirth (shoulders got stuck, midwife couldn't resolve it and by the time they transfered, the baby was gone) - yeah, I have a good reason for not wanting one and thinking people, especially those with first babies or with prior complicated deliveries, are :cray-cray: for doing it. And my friend had the same experience with her first but she was in the hospital so he's now a healthy and overactive 10 year old.

[Flossie]

I had my first two babies in America and the second two in Germany. The difference was night and day! There are far fewer unnecessary interventions in German hospitals. You are attended by a midwife and your case is overseen by a physician, just in case it's needed. They discourage pain medications and epidural s and instead use aromatherapy, massage, positional changes, water, etc. I much preferred that to laying on my side, hooked to an IV pole and monitors for hours on end. It was a much more personal experience.

You got to lay on your side? Lucky you. I had three children at the same hospital and it was the same thing every time: Lay on your back, no getting up to walk around, no going to the bathroom unless it was in a bed pan. Do the breathing exercises but under no conditions are you to even mildly bear down, even when your body is screaming for you to help out a bit by giving a slight push. Draw this out as long as possible, then when there's no other option but to push out the baby, the attending nurses and physicians acted like a weird combination of cheerleader, going through oral surgery, and someone waiting for their ride to hurry up.

A relative of my husband (a nurse who worked there) eventually clued me in. The hospital staff is so scared of something going wrong and being sued, that they either scream C-section at the slightest provocation, or try to delay the birth until the next shift. After having an emergency C-section for my first baby, I found a doctor who would allow me to try VBAC on the second if I agreed to a strict protocol. I agreed, and after 26 hours I had a successful delivery of a beautiful baby. The third time I was promised a water birth, but it never happened. When I was in labor and mentioned the water birth, one of the nurses laughed and told me that the hospital applied to the board of directors for a jacuzzi because that would increase the number of women who decided to give birth there, but that it was almost never used because the staff didn't like cleaning it out after each birth. Instead, the jacuzzi was used as a perk for hospital staff to unwind in after a long day. Sure enough, it seemed that certain 'conditions' for transferring to the jacuzzi hadn't yet been met, and finally I was told that the jacuzzi was out of commission. So another pissy delivery experience.

But on the upside, I did get three fantastic kids! And I've also told them that if they want, when they get preggers I'll be there for them in any capacity that they feel comfortable with. If they want something done a certain way during labor and delivery, I'll be right there making sure it happens.

[sadie673]

I'm actually a doula and both of my daughters have already told me they want me there with them. I look forward to it...one day :)

[AVENues]

As someone whose good friend would have a 10 month old niece today if it wasn't for her sister wanting a homebirth (shoulders got stuck, midwife couldn't resolve it and by the time they transfered, the baby was gone) - yeah, I have a good reason for not wanting one and thinking people, especially those with first babies or with prior complicated deliveries, are :cray-cray: for doing it. And my friend had the same experience with her first but she was in the hospital so he's now a healthy and overactive 10 year old.

I can mention at least ten people that I know who lost their newborn children during hospital labors. Just promise you won't throw rocks at women that work as midwives or don't try to hang them or burn them for sorcery, promise? Kthxbai

[Katiebug]

To claim that OBs are the ones making homebirth dangerous is ridiculous. Any woman planning a homebirth should have a backup OB planned if possible, and wither way, no professional OB would ever act the way you described to a transfer patient. Not to say that unprofessional OBs do not exist. Women who transfer are not uniformly verbally and physically abused as you describe.

I wholeheartedly believe in bodily autonomy and choice of birth place. There are many benefits to homebirth, many of which appeal to me. Safety is not one of those reasons. I agree that OBs as a whole have a much less caring demeanor and that the culture during training communication style that some might describe as bitchy, which is why many medical students dread their OB rotation. So if you care more about your "birth experience" than a healthy baby, knock yourself out because I do not deny that for many women homebirth is better in that regard. Being a patient sucks.

I agree that both sides need to stop demonizing each other with blanket judgements, but these are the kind of statements that cause OBs to discount midwifery completely.

A-fucking-men.

Homebirth advocates, I watched "The Business of Being Born" and I read numerous books on the state of midwifery and obstetrics in the US today. I still choose my prenatal care to be with an OB and to deliver my babies in a hospital. The only people this informed choice directly impacts are me and my baby - so why do the midwifery folks insist on telling me I'm crazy, stupid, or uneducated on the issue? I don't judge their choices unless they're doing something patently stupid (like using a barely-trained lay midwife, planning an unassisted delivery, or insisting on homebirth despite serious complications) so why judge me and my choice?

Yes, my OBGYN is trained as a surgeon, as are all OBGYNs - that doesn't mean that every OB is a selfish asshole who's out to cut as many women as possible and still make a tee time. Most OBs are decent people who want to deliver healthy babies to healthy moms, as I assume is the goal for most trained midwives as well.

My OB is on-board with low intervention natural deliveries if that's what his patients want; roughly 1/3 of his patients deliver with no epidural or pain meds (in this area, that's a high percentage). He's never been anything but caring, considerate, and respectful, and has a hell of a sense of humor. And for me and my baby, I feel safer delivering in a hospital - specifically a hospital with 24/7 in-house anesthesiology and OB coverage and a NICU. It's my choice and it's one I'm very comfortable with. I had a great hospital delivery experience with our first, in spite of developing preeclampsia and requiring more intervention than we had hoped for.

The stupidest comment I ever heard from a midwifery advocate was from a woman who chose to have "prenatal care" with an unlicensed, uninsured lay midwife who didn't even bother showing up when she went into labor. This woman had an unattended home birth (fortunately the baby was fine) and when said midwife finally arrived, rather than having her go to the hospital for an outpatient repair of her 2nd degree tear, encouraged this woman to instead lay in bed with her legs together for several weeks rather than going to an EVIL HOSPITAL and maybe seeing an EVIL OB! :roll: Anyways, this woman told me that if I had just chosen the midwifery model and planned a homebirth, I never would have developed preeclampsia to begin with and that it was all my fault for not "trusting birth". :? First of all, crazy lady, any homebirth CNM worth her license has a backup OB and would have instantly risked me out to the hospital as soon as preeclampsia was diagnosed. I almost certainly would have still been induced right away. Second, one does not develop preeclampsia as a result of fear, apprehension, or not "trusting" birth, and the ill effects on mom and baby cannot be mitigated by any sort of traditional midwifery practice.

[Jana814]

How horrible!! How could anyone say that to someone!!

[DrWhat]

How horrible!! How could anyone say that to someone!!

The worst midwives will go so far as to say that any complication is just a variation of normal, unless something goes wrong, in which case the woman probably did something wrong, thereby removing any sense of accountability from the midwife. It is the worst type of quackery manipulation and reminds me of when fundies believe people have been punished by God for not having enough faith or otherwise sinning. If your birth practitioner believes that trusting birth will lead to good outcomes, why is she even present? It is like she admits that she offers no real services because those services are unnecessary. :think:

One of the most dangerous examples of this blame game is the idea that protein deficiency causes pre-eclampsia, an idea that Zsu supports. Even just reading the proposed mechanism on the Brewer diet website reveals that the hypothesis is either based on very outdated science or else someone who has never taken a physiology course. Not to mention there is only anecdotal evidence. (I ate a cow every day and didn't develop pre-E, so I KNOW it works!!!!!11!!)

[2xx1xy1JD]

The worst midwives will go so far as to say that any complication is just a variation of normal, unless something goes wrong, in which case the woman probably did something wrong, thereby removing any sense of accountability from the midwife. It is the worst type of quackery manipulation and reminds me of when fundies believe people have been punished by God for not having enough faith or otherwise sinning. If your birth practitioner believes that trusting birth will lead to good outcomes, why is she even present? It is like she admits that she offers no real services because those services are unnecessary. :think:

One of the most dangerous examples of this blame game is the idea that protein deficiency causes pre-eclampsia, an idea that Zsu supports. Even just reading the proposed mechanism on the Brewer diet website reveals that the hypothesis is either based on very outdated science or else someone who has never taken a physiology course. Not to mention there is only anecdotal evidence. (I ate a cow every day and didn't develop pre-E, so I KNOW it works!!!!!11!!)

I'll preface this by saying that I have no issue with properly educated and certified midwives, who are strictly regulated where I live. There is evidence that homebirths with a properly educated and equipped midwife, done in accordance with strict regulations that filter out anything remotely high-risk, are safe.

That said, ITA that I found some natural mumbo-jumbo was absolutely a sort of fundie-esque guilt-inducing bullshit.

"Women's Bodies, Women's Wisdom" was one popular book that is rage-inducing. It comes across as empowering to women...until you actually read it. She blames infertility and multiple miscarriages on your "chakras", or subconscious fears of the changes associated with motherhood, or other emotional factors. The only thing garbage info like this does is cause women who do experience problems to go through more intense, guilt-induced depression. Part of me is still fucking angry about the guilt that I felt about my first miscarriage - there was no need for it, I had absolutely no control over the pregnancy outcome but messages like this hold us responsible anyway.

[Rowan]

I can mention at least ten people that I know who lost their newborn children during hospital labors. Just promise you won't throw rocks at women that work as midwives or don't try to hang them or burn them for sorcery, promise? Kthxbai

I haven't ever done that, Kthxbai! As horrified as we were about my friend's sister's choice - it was her choice. Unfortunately it wasn't a fully informed decision and she has to live with the consequences of that choice. However, I also have the choice to not support women who make poorly-informed decisions and risk their and their baby's heath as a result.

[Rescinded and Mended]

That is because you are Australian. You have NO idea what birthing in the US is like. Do you think a 40% c section rate (this is the county that I live in, which does not have midwives as hospital option) is normal? Good? Medically necessary?

Maybe we should temper what we say with what country we are in and how medical care is paid for. I know in my county there are obs who outright admit and tell patients "I have a golf date at 4 pm. If you want me to deliver your baby, you need to have a c section now." And that they like c sections because they don't like having to get up in the middle of the night. My current gyn is a gyn only because (he's originally from So Africa) he couldnt stand the way obstetrics is practiced in the US.

I had something similar to this happen when I was pregnant 13 or so years ago. My OB/GYN arranged for me to be induced on a certain date. She also decided that at 8 months alongs, she thought my baby "might" get too big (he was estimated to be at around 7 pounds), and tried to get me to sign off on a pre-scheduled c-section. I looked her right in the eye and told her that if complications arose at any time near the birth, and it was medically necessary, then yes, we would do the c-section, but not a second before. She wanted me to sign a document to that effect, even though there wasn't an urgent reason at that moment for needing one.

I later discovered that every patient my doctor had, including myself, all had their babies on the same two days, Tuesday and Thursday, of that week because those were the two days my doctor had hospital rounds.

I also found out that on the day my son was born, which was on a Tuesday, evey other woman on that floor had had a c-section except for me. I can't speak for the birthing experiences of those other women, but I often wonder if my doctor and her associate at the same practice had tried to "scare" those women into needing a c-section.

Perhaps it was truly nothing more than a very strange coincidence, but something about the whole thing seemed really shady.

[Mama Mia]

The worst midwives will go so far as to say that any complication is just a variation of normal, unless something goes wrong, in which case the woman probably did something wrong, thereby removing any sense of accountability from the midwife. It is the worst type of quackery manipulation and reminds me of when fundies believe people have been punished by God for not having enough faith or otherwise sinning. If your birth practitioner believes that trusting birth will lead to good outcomes, why is she even present? It is like she admits that she offers no real services because those services are unnecessary. :think:

One of the most dangerous examples of this blame game is the idea that protein deficiency causes pre-eclampsia, an idea that Zsu supports. Even just reading the proposed mechanism on the Brewer diet website reveals that the hypothesis is either based on very outdated science or else someone who has never taken a physiology course. Not to mention there is only anecdotal evidence. (I ate a cow every day and didn't develop pre-E, so I KNOW it works!!!!!11!!)

I could name off, just off the top of my head, AT LEAST a half dozen equally damaging, ignorant and blaming comments and actions by OB-GYNs just from the experience of myself or people I am close to. I have gone through watching my daughter and her child almost die because of an arrogant idiot of an OB. It was pure luck that she survived.

Does that make all OB's ignorant, arrogant, abrasive quacks ? No, of course not. However Doctors in general, in my experience, tend to have an overly inflated view of themselves and do not tend to listen to anyone (especially the patient) - which can lead to serious complications which could be prevented. It has also been my experience that Doctors are far more dismissive of young/ethnic minority/poor women, which is certainly accounts for some of the vast difference in healthy outcomes for mother and baby, at least in the United States.

[OkToBeTakei]

How mind blowing some of these comments are :shock:

There is one type of midwife in the UK. They study for four yours and have a BsC degree. There is no other type (unless trained before the year 2000 change in Nursing and midwifery education. Although even then the training was rigorous and 3-4 years and most if not all through continuing professional development attained degrees via CAT points transfer. As in most nursing disciplines you do not qualify one day and become 'the expert' you work your through each midwifery discipline before being say senior enough to you know do seniory things.

All care is shared care. ie. GP- Midwife- Consultant. I saw my GP after I did my own test. He then refers to the Maternity services. I saw my Midwife at 6 weeks for clerking in. Discuss testing, nuchal scans, blood tests, amnio etc. Start birth plan. If wanted a nuchal scan at 9 weeks. If not regular scan at 12 weeks. If I recall I saw my midwife 4 weekly then a further scan at 20-22 weeks. After 30 weeks saw midwife fortnightly then weekly after 36 weeks. I met my consultant twice. 24 weeks and 38 weeks.

IF my birth had required a planned caesar then it would have been my named consultant. If an emergency then the rotational Consultant or Registrar on duty.

My midwife was there from the start of my labour (induction) My birth plan went out of the window after 8 hours sod that pain at 4 cm dilated :lol: Anaesthetist did my epidural them my midwife took back my care. Little miss OK got stuck and I required forceps and episiotomy. Episiotomy was done by the midwife delivery by a registrar, midwife did the stitch up.

I think my care is fairly typical across NHS trusts. Homebirths are fine too I believe although two midwives will attend I believe.

I am fairly certain not everybody gets exactly maybe the birth they want, the system is not perfect. But I have never heard it being about golf or money. Litigation though is as contentious as everywhere else.

Length of stay is dependent on baby/maternal health but generally between hours if you choose and all is well. Or like my friend 5 days. She likes to settle her new baby and recharge before jumping back home. (5 kids :lol: )

After that you are handed off to community midwives who see you daily for 2 weeks followed by health visitor. Then back to GP. Health visitor until age 5 I think.

There is no other type of midwife. No half arsed training. Just either a midwife or not a midwife. I think tensions can exist between consultants and midwifes. What's new? I'm an RMN and sometimes I find the consultant Psychiatrists I work with twats and vice-versa. Nurses tend to be patient focussed consultants tend to look at the medical model. It is why multi-disciplinary team working is crucial for holistic person/patient centred care.