Submission and non-fundies

[Angharad Crewe]

We typically discuss fundies who are obsessed with submission in marriage. However, over in the land of the MRAs, there are several vocal women who also advocate the traditional submission model for relationships. Some of these identify as fundie, like Sunshine Mary, while others do not, like Judgy Bitch. Another one I just found calls herself LadySadie at the blog Motivational Hierarchy. She has three daughters, and was once married to a man who hired a hitman to kill her and her children. LadySadie uses a lot of the lingo of the "manosphere", more so than the other two. (A few examples: red pill, blue pill, mangina, beta, alpha, hamster)

motivationalhierarchy.wordpress.com/2013/05/03/3/

Recently she began dating a beta that she is training to be more alpha. Whatever that means.

I started wearing dresses and cooking for him at home. I made a concerted effort to be that girl. I stopped reading exclusively male-written manosphere blogs. I wanted the advice of women who were seeking good men. Surprisingly, most of the really great women are already married.

I am trying, but I have to constantly be on guard to not act as Mother and I am ever on guard for opportunities to be Lover and Supporter, even when I know that I could intervene and take control. It Is Hard Work to STFU sometimes.

My only relevant point here is that women, you CAN gently show a beta what he CAN be. He won’t “get it†overnight. You must be dedicated to being a Nice Girl, allow him to make every decision and ENTHUSIASTICALLY reward him for it. Gradually, he will make decisions that you disagree with… you have to cry, be sad, or whatever negative thing you emotionally feel, but thank and reward him for his bravery and wisdom in making the decision, even if it is horribly wrong.

(Blow jobs are a nice touch… just saying. Warning: Sex is not a reward, it’s a given. Never withhold, only give.)

I'm wondering what everyone thinks of this. Why would non-fundie women be attracted to this lifestyle, where even if your husband makes a "horribly wrong" decision, you still have to thank him for his "wisdom?" Why does the male partner have to make every decision? LadySadie has said herself on her blog that part of the reason that she became a "Red Pill woman" was so she could heal from the trauma of almost being murdered by her husband. Given her history, I wonder if following prescribed gender roles makes her feel safer and more secure in her relationships. Thoughts?

[RosyDaisy]

Warning: Sex is not a reward, it’s a given. Never withhold, only give.

NAW, NAW, HAIL NAW! Sex is never a given. It should ALWAYS be consensual!

[miffy]

NAW, NAW, HAIL NAW! Sex is never a given. It should ALWAYS be consensual!

It shouldn't be a reward either. Consensual spontaneous sex is the best. Who wants to sell themselves to get their own way or feel that they have to? NOT I!

[Peas n carrots]

My armchair psychologist guess is she thinks she will find comfort in traditional gender roles. But also notice she chose to be with a beta man in the first place. If she truly wanted an alpha man she would have held out, but I'm guessing she finds a beta who will occasionally play an alpha when requested by her to be "safe" considering her life experience.

Look, not all men are meant to be alphas. My DH is a total beta type guy, but alpha and masculine are not mutually exclusive! Also, what counts is that he treats me with respect, which I suspecet with thr MRA types is very hard to come by.

[Pretzel]

My guess is a weirdly generated BDSM-like somehow kinky fetish... :wtf:

[LucySnowe]

She has three daughters, and was once married to a man who hired a hitman to kill her and her children.

...wait, WHAT??

Yeah, I see the 'prescribed gender role = safety' possibility. Because if you do exactly what you're supposed to, then your husband does exactly what HE'S supposed to, and he'll protect you and not, for instance, actively try to murder you.

[lizziesmom]

If she was once married to a man who hired someone to kill her and her children, it sounds to be like she is predisposed to enter into bad relationships.

[salex]

All this crap sounds like way too much work--changing who you are and putting on a facade so you can manipulate a man into who someone other than he is and putting on a facade or growing a pair or whatever she is after.

[Angharad Crewe]

...wait, WHAT??

Yeah, I see the 'prescribed gender role = safety' possibility. Because if you do exactly what you're supposed to, then your husband does exactly what HE'S supposed to, and he'll protect you and not, for instance, actively try to murder you.

Here is the link where she briefly discusses her history:

motivationalhierarchy.wordpress.com/2013/05/02/no-victims-allowed/

[debrand]

My armchair psychologist guess is she thinks she will find comfort in traditional gender roles. But also notice she chose to be with a beta man in the first place. If she truly wanted an alpha man she would have held out, but I'm guessing she finds a beta who will occasionally play an alpha when requested by her to be "safe" considering her life experience.

Look, not all men are meant to be alphas. My DH is a total beta type guy, but alpha and masculine are not mutually exclusive! Also, what counts is that he treats me with respect, which I suspecet with thr MRA types is very hard to come by.

I don't think that there is such thing as alpha/beta men. Isn't apha/beta based on mistaken beliefs about wolves?

[RachelB]

I don't think that there is such thing as alpha/beta men. Isn't apha/beta based on mistaken beliefs about wolves?

And even if MRAs had understood wolf society correctly, there's no reason to believe that wolf society would be closer to human society than bonobo society (which is pretty egalitarian and mellow)-- bonobos are far closer genetic relations to us than wolves are.

[snuggles911]

This chick is filled with misogyny, which probably explains her desire to submit to what she sees as a superior male. She's obsessed with being thin and brags about being a size 2 at 5'10" tall. I guess she's a graduate of the Sunshine Mary School of Submission and Wifely Arts.

[idonthaveajname]

I just can't even with this chick, seriously.

[nokidsmom]

This chick is filled with misogyny, which probably explains her desire to submit to what she sees as a superior male. She's obsessed with being thin and brags about being a size 2 at 5'10" tall. I guess she's a graduate of the Sunshine Mary School of Submission and Wifely Arts.

Holy crap, if I were a size 2 even at my height (5'8") I would look downright skeletal.

[Dysfundamental]

I don't think that there is such thing as alpha/beta men. Isn't apha/beta based on mistaken beliefs about wolves?

Yes, that model has been [link=http://io9.com/why-everything-you-know-about-wolf-packs-is-wrong-502754629]thoroughly debunked[/link].

[slh12280]

NAW, NAW, HAIL NAW! Sex is never a given. It should ALWAYS be consensual!

Think they care? According to them women wear an "open for business" sign

[Angharad Crewe]

This chick is filled with misogyny, which probably explains her desire to submit to what she sees as a superior male. She's obsessed with being thin and brags about being a size 2 at 5'10" tall. I guess she's a graduate of the Sunshine Mary School of Submission and Wifely Arts.

Sunshine Mary is indeed on her blogroll. It's interesting to me how so many people are so quick to buy into evo-psych nonsense, which basically reduces women down to gold-diggers and men down to opportunistic cads/rapists. It's not very flattering to either sex and it's not particularly realistic if you live in the real world either.

On another post one of LadySadie's readers commented that at 5'10'', 125 lbs she is medically underweight. LS responds by saying that anyone who has a problem with her post are all overweight or obese themselves. She goes on to imply that she wishes her waist was more like a 1950s waist, ie, 22-23 inches. She makes no mention that women were also shorter then, and most women were not 5'10" the way she is. That kind of thinking, even more so than the always-be-submissive crap she spouts, is very damaging especially for girls who are constantly being told that thinner is always better. I've always been slender, but in high school I was jealous of how thin the girls being treated for anorexia were.

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

Sunshine Mary is indeed on her blogroll. It's interesting to me how so many people are so quick to buy into evo-psych nonsense, which basically reduces women down to gold-diggers and men down to opportunistic cads/rapists. It's not very flattering to either sex and it's not particularly realistic if you live in the real world either.

On another post one of LadySadie's readers commented that at 5'10'', 125 lbs she is medically underweight. LS responds by saying that anyone who has a problem with her post are all overweight or obese themselves. She goes on to imply that she wishes her waist was more like a 1950s waist, ie, 22-23 inches. She makes no mention that women were also shorter then, and most women were not 5'10" the way she is. That kind of thinking, even more so than the always-be-submissive crap she spouts, is very damaging especially for girls who are constantly being told that thinner is always better. I've always been slender, but in high school I was jealous of how thin the girls being treated for anorexia were.

I hear that. I was a young teen when Kate Moss was at the top of her game (actually - have you seen her lately? DOES THE WOMAN NEVER AGE) and it was all about "heroin chic". Meanwhile I was an early bloomer with curves and even if I starved myself I'd never have had that narrow-hipped look. I remember honestly admiring anorexics, thinking they were so brave and disciplined, and wishing I could be like them. :( :pink-shock: