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Rebecca Eleventy!!!l! Uncle in hell?


Milly-Molly-Mandy

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Some years ago, a cousin of mine committed suicide. His conservative, WELS grandparents said very matter of factly that he may not have gone to heaven. They said they would know when they got there.

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Who can judge who goes to heaven? it is pretty sad when you think you will be there over someone else. If you listen to Christians pretty much none of them are going to heaven as everyone else is not saved. God must be entertained with all the Christians that think they have the inside track to heaven.

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Some years ago, a cousin of mine committed suicide. His conservative, WELS grandparents said very matter of factly that he may not have gone to heaven. They said they would know when they got there.

Okay, I'm a universalist, but since it's clear that they're not: How unbecomingly presumptuous of them.

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I think it was Thomas Aquinas (I may be libeling a dead philosopher) who said that one of the principal pleasures of Heaven was watching people burn in Hell.

There is so much wrong with that, it makes me a little nauseated.

That Aquinas quote has been taken out of context in recent years, most popularly by Richard Dawkins. Here's Aquinas' supplement to it, taken from question 94, article 3 of his Summa Theologica:

"A thing may be a matter of rejoicing in two ways. First directly, when one rejoices in a thing as such: and thus the saints will not rejoice in the punishment of the wicked. Secondly, indirectly, by reason namely of something annexed to it: and in this way the saints will rejoice in the punishment of the wicked, by considering therein the order of Divine justice and their own deliverance, which will fill them with joy. And thus the Divine justice and their own deliverance will be the direct cause of the joy of the blessed: while the punishment of the damned will cause it indirectly."

I'm not sure whether I think that makes it better or worse, but putting things in context is better than the alternative, I think.

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Who can judge who goes to heaven? it is pretty sad when you think you will be there over someone else. If you listen to Christians pretty much none of them are going to heaven as everyone else is not saved. God must be entertained with all the Christians that think they have the inside track to heaven.

That's what bugs me about the posts the Maxwells in particular write on this topic (though I'm sure they're not the only ones). They don't only talk about how so and so might not be saved, they word it as "I'll know when *I* get to heaven" as if they know they're going!

I don't come from any sort of fundie background myself and I have to admit I'm sort of in awe (not in a good way, either) when I hear comments from people saying they think some relative close to them might be in hell. I would expect people to change their worldview upon the death of the relative to somehow rationalize that no, they did have a chance, but I suppose I'm underestimating the hard-core fundiedom.

(Of course if it's some relative they aren't so close to and maybe even look down on obviously when they were alive, then I'm not so shocked.)

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Honestly, I think Rebecca!!!!!! is simply using the only words she knows to use when someone dies. There's no grey area there -- if you're saved, you go to Heaven, if you're not, you go to Hell. Period. She's not the sharpest tool in the shed so she was a perfect candidate for the uber-Christian brainwashing her parents did to her, anyway. What else could anyone expect?

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In reply to a comment asking whether she believes he is in hell, Rebecca says:

'I can't say. I'm not God, only He truly knows what was in Uncle Don's heart. Only He can truly see that. All I mentioned was what I observed. As I said, we won't know until eternity. All we can do is hope he did and try to help his family.

I understand that some people who do truly get saved don't always show fruit immediately.

But it still isn't easy to go to the funeral when we don't know for sure whether that person is with Jesus or not. All we can do is hope.'

At least she acknowledges that she can't make the judgment about his afterlife. That's something, I suppose. And she explains what she meant by the remark about eternity.

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I don't really follow Rebecca very closely, so I'm not certain that she's the same flavor of fundie that I grew up. That being said, the theology that I was taught, which sounds like what her family subscribes to, is that as soon as you die, you go to heaven or hell depending on whether or not you were saved. You remain there, wherever you went, until the end of time when Jesus has come back for all of his followers and destroyed the earth. Then Jesus hauls everyone out of hell and they have to stand before him for the Great White Throne of Judgement while all the Christians watch. At that time, all of the lost will be forced to kneel before Jesus, "know" him as he really is, and publicly admit that they were wrong and he is actually Lord before they get cast into the Lake of Fire (which is a different place than hell) for the rest of eternity. So no second chances, just public humiliation before final defeat.

Yes, God's jumbo torn o' shame...... Only Christians 'secret' sins will be shown as they get their turn at judgement, to see if they are 'good enough'

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In reply to a comment asking whether she believes he is in hell, Rebecca says:

'I can't say. I'm not God, only He truly knows what was in Uncle Don's heart. Only He can truly see that. All I mentioned was what I observed. As I said, we won't know until eternity. All we can do is hope he did and try to help his family.

I understand that some people who do truly get saved don't always show fruit immediately.

But it still isn't easy to go to the funeral when we don't know for sure whether that person is with Jesus or not. All we can do is hope.'

At least she acknowledges that she can't make the judgment about his afterlife. That's something, I suppose. And she explains what she meant by the remark about eternity.

Aargh! No! It's still wrong (to the flavour of Christianity I knew as a kid).

You don't even "hope" or speculate. You don't get to judge at all. It's not for you to know or comment on. Funerals are decorous and one affects to presume the dead are in a better place. Even if you are fairly sure they aren't, "de mortuis nil nisi bonum".

It just comes across to me as arrogant. It's also something God told us not to do. If you're a Christian (and I was one once) you're taking on one of God's powers by presuming to guess a bad afterlife fate for anyone. Not a good idea.

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I can believe that is what she meant. Hell is one of those things that I will never understand how it is just. Supposedly, we will all understand the justice of it someday O.o I think it was John Calvin that said something like: the walls of hell are lined with the souls of babies. Ditto on the quote from Aquinas. I am not a sadist!

The more I think about the afterlife in general the less sense it makes to me. A big part of me doesn't want to live forever. Maybe because all I can imagine is how life is now? Everything gets boring after a while, though. Then with hell you can get saved at the last minute and it's all good but if you weren't born in the right place you might be toast? (yes, I know some Christians do not believe that). Why the need to punish? Why not just let them be separate or destroy them or even punish them for a time in proportion to their crimes? I would even let a serial killer off after a while. Plus, murderers and victims could end up in the same place if they both get saved. So some people have to pay for the things they do wrong when others don't. If predestination really were true then God really would be choosing whom to send to hell. I know the arguments; hell is the default setting and all that.

How come Christians can't even agree on who is saved? Why punish someone forever? There is no purpose. It doesn't teach them anything. It isn't for the function of protecting humanity at large. It must simply be for the enjoyment of the one doing the punishing. That is a view of God I cannot accept.

In a real life experience, my mother described someone she used to go to church with. The woman was saying how some of her relatives were baptizing their children into the Catholic church. She was very distraught about this. Apparently, she just about in tears describing how they were lost and hell-bound. What a sad way to live. Sometimes, I think it gives life more meaning if you realize it is only temporary and there might not be a "continuation."

/end theological question corner

My ex husband has catholic relatives who were devastated when we chose not to baptise our children and who begged us to on the basis that our children, the first in many generations not to be baptised, would be damned to hell if we didn't. Not the sort of thing a new mother wants to hear...,.

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Eastern Orthodox here. Orthodoxy teaches you work out your own salvation with God, and you mind your own business about anyone else's, because it is between them and God, and not for another person to comment on. Furthermore, according to EO theology, NOBODY can know whether or not they are going upstairs or downstairs, until after lights out. That's right, none of us has a sure thing in the bag. As to other religions, and this is from the mouth of a priest, "mind your own business, no one knows the plans of God, but if God is good, people are not going to hell for a wrong guess or being part of a different religious tradition". Note the repetitive themes of "mind your own business" and "no one can know".

So yeah, as a Christian, I find it incredibly presumptuous that some people actually think they know who is and who is not going to heaven. If that isn't being a whitewashed tomb on the outside with all matter of foulness within, I don't know what is.

Rebecca should work out her own salvation, and leave her uncle's fate in the hands of a loving God, not the monster she tries to appease.

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There's nothing there now about his lifestyle or anything about hell. It just says he died of a heart attack and "Please pray for the James family, Mom's side of the family."

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Okay, I'm a universalist, but since it's clear that they're not: How unbecomingly presumptuous of them.

Yeah, I was pretty shocked to hear that. Not only what they said but also how they said it.

One of the reasons I am leaning toward eventually joining a UU church myself. My views on this heaven/hell thing, among other religious / spiritual stuff has changed so much that I feel I no longer fit in the Lutheran church I grew up in.

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There's nothing there now about his lifestyle or anything about hell. It just says he died of a heart attack and "Please pray for the James family, Mom's side of the family."

Hmm, maybe she realized how insensitive her remarks were for the James family. What's quoted above is what she should have said to begin with.

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If you go now and read her whole response to a comment she actually DID respond in a positive manner and rethought about what she had written. Not only did she explain what she meant, but she also PUBLICALLY admitted that what she wrote was not appropriate. She didn't just make the post go "poof"! I think that shows a level of maturity and frankly I think she actually does think about what people say to her questioning her beliefs. I relly think that if this young woman weren' so close to her family she might really be questioning her religion. Her personality/temperment doesn't make her a naturally bigoted person (just my opinion).

I think she was probably raised to be scared to death that most of the people she knows, likes, and/or loves will be going to hell. I read her post as afraid and distressed for the possibility thather uncle may not be going to heaven.

Here is an anecdote from when my, at the time, 4 and 6 year old unitarian atheist children met their first and maybe only fundy child. We were at out local lake beach with two of my kids friends and several of the other members kids. The kids were building

a castle with moats and rivers etc. Quite involved. One of the girls who was a guest of one of the other member kids said something

to my son (6) about god or jesus who answered flippantly about those being stories or something. I wasn't paying complete attention until the girl burst into tears and started howling about how my kids were going to burn in hell and she didn't want them to burn in hell. She ws hysterical, but not in a funny way. How does a child raised like this ever recover? It's so sad.

I honestly don't care if anyone wants to believe in god, but religion can be very cruel. I still have hope for Rebecca, but her real self will not have a hope of showing until her father has passed. Jmo.

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I actually think her first post was pretty tame when you consider the way she was, and is, being raised. Most fundies jump on the chance to mention the tormenting fires of eternal hell and she didn't do that. Imagine if that had been a Maxwell family member; there would have been a 5-part blog series, a conference, and a poorly written book about how their uncle was burning alive in hell because he didn't accept Jesus into his heart her on earth. It would be like a Smoky the Bear PSA for salvation: Only You Can Prevent Hell Fires! I think there is a lot of hope for her.

Anecdotally- i remember in the days of my IFB fundie youth, an "unsaved" widower started coming to our church and became "saved." Shortly after, we began a 10-part series on hell, hellfire, brimstone, gnashing of teeth, eternal torment, etc. And this cute old man sat in his pew, all alone, sobbing, because he knew that's where his wife was. I was about 12, and after the sermon I went over to him, trying to offer some comfort. I said no one really knew his wife was in hell, that she might be Heaven, and there was hope. He looked at me with years streaming down his face and gave me a hug. A deacon overheard our exchange and came up to us and said," if your wife didn't accept Jesus as her personal Lord and Savior, she's in hell. Go tell your kids and grandkids their mom and gradma is burning in hell for all eternity because she denied Christ- and maybe they will learn from her mistake and get saved." This was one of the first, and one of the biggest, chinks in my armor of fundie beliefs. I was devastated for that man and I hated that deacon. Fundies can be SO cruel about hell because they think its the only way to make their point about why Ye Must Be Born Again.

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These stories of children who live in fear that hell yawns before them are just heartbreaking. I hate the thought of any child being so stressed over going to hell when said child should only be concerned with playing and learning. We're not church-goers in my household, but I've always made it clear to my son that if he finds faith and it makes him happy, we would be supportive, but also to respect the beliefs of others.

Not long ago, I took Boy Rescinded and Mended over to a friend's house to play. I will call her Sherry. At first, I was quite impressed with Sherry, as she was a polite, well-mannered little girl. Then I overheard this conversation between the two of them (both kids were 11 at the time):

Sherry: Have you let God into your heart?

Boy R&M: No, not recently.

Sherry: You have to accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior, and love and worship God. Don't you know that's what the Bible says? It's the right thing to do.

Boy R&M: I think people should make their own choices. As long as we're friends and nice to each other, why does it matter?

Sherry: You'll go to hell if you don't love God.

Boy R&M: (getting mad) Oh yeah? Is that what he told you? When was the last time he spoke to you?

Sherry: He talks to me all the time.

Boy R&M: (sarcastically) Well I'm SO GLAD that God took time out of a busy Thursday afternoon to tell you I was going to hell!

(I hate that Sherry has been so thoroughly brainwashed at such a young age, but couldn't resist sharing this, I was quite proud of Boy Rescinded and Mended that day!)

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So am I! Excellent responses! :)

Small (my niece) has a dad who's an atheist and is quite confused about religion, so we're just letting her do her own thing. Her nan took her to chapel and she's come back confused about the whole shit.

Small: This is what you do with God *does impression of praying*

My brother: Yeah, but we don't do that, because God isn't real.

Small: [cousin] says that you don't know about God, Daddy. And he is real.

Brother: That's OK if [cousin] believes that. He's allowed to say I don't know everything *laughing* right, Small?

Small: But you have to know about God or not! *agitated*

Brother: Just don't worry, Small. You're too little to worry about that.

Small: IT IS VERY BIG!

I hope she grows up more determined, like R&M :)

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So sad to read everyone's stories about being told their friends or relatives are going to hell. What a terrible thing to imagine as a child. Or as an adult.

Glad Rebecca changed her post

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Thanks, JFC. Loved your conversation regarding Small and Brother. I love it when the little ones show streaks of independence and are willing to speak out! :)

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If you go now and read her whole response to a comment she actually DID respond in a positive manner and rethought about what she had written. Not only did she explain what she meant, but she also PUBLICALLY admitted that what she wrote was not appropriate. She didn't just make the post go "poof"! I think that shows a level of maturity and frankly I think she actually does think about what people say to her questioning her beliefs. I relly think that if this young woman weren' so close to her family she might really be questioning her religion. Her personality/temperment doesn't make her a naturally bigoted person (just my opinion).

I didn't read the comments, only the post so I had no way of knowing that. I went back tonight and read the comments. I do have hope for her too.

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And this is why I don't have pet fundies.

Yep, same here. Having pet fundies means cleaning up the rug.

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I have hope for Rebecca, too. She has humility to admit when she made a mistake, and has shown commendable maturity. I *think* her comment about how she was wrong might have been made in response to a comment I sent her, where I said that I thought she'd said something inappropriate and insensitive, and that as she appears to have a kind heart then she must not have realised how she came across.

To be honest, of all the snarkable things on fundie blogs, an extremely sheltered, naive SAHD's genuine worry and concern on behalf of her deceased uncle doesn't come near the top of the list for me. She was insensitive to talk about it on her blog, but she has accepted that she was wrong to do that and has publically admitted that mistake. Also, belief in salvation and hell isn't exactly only a fundie thing. It's a pretty fundamental, mainstream Christian doctrine that one must accept Christ in order to gain salvation. Yes, most Christians don't believe in literal fire and brimstone, but the idea of some sort of hell (even just a separation from God type of hell) is pretty much part and parcel of Christianity.

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While belief in salvation and hell is not limited to fundies, this smug surety of who and who is not going to be united or separated from God certainly is. Seriously, it's gross. Not just misguided, but absolutely gross and the height of hubris. It is a good thing if your comment spurred Rebecca to rethinking what she had posted. Hopefully, she did not get rid of it simply due to good manners, but actually thought about the implications of claiming she or any human being who is a believer can know God's mind.

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