Jewish Appropriation Tumblr

[gardenvarietycitizen]

What do you mean Hebrew is privileged language and private language?

Im reading this thread and I dont understand whats going on with the problem? I thought it was the tumblr person is says its appropriation if a non-Jew puts Hebrew or Yiddish tatoos?

(I dont know Yiddish because Im not Askenaz. Im Sabra and speak Hebrew.)

I mean that I can understand how Hebrew would feel like private language when it is used by a minority population (such as in religious settings by Jewish people living in the US, or by Israeli expats in the US). They can come to feel that "people who speak Hebrew are surely members of my group" and feel possessive about it. However, the daily language of those people is English. The "privileged" language, the one that you're supposed to use is business and at school and in various official contexts, is English. In wider society people who don't speak English are looked down upon and English learning is encouraged, in the US.

Meanwhile in Israel, the daily language is Hebrew. In that way, Hebrew is the privileged language, and so new residents are encouraged to speak it. It's used in school, it's used on TV, it's used in government offices. So if some foreign workers (say, from Asia) immigrate to Israel, and have kids, those kids will have pressure to learn Hebrew (they are surrounded by it!) and will learn it, and speak it, even if they are not Jewish. They very well might speak Hebrew outside the house and Chinese at home, in the same way that people speak English outside the house and Chinese at home in the US. They will learn it naturally, and yes, it will end up (one of) their languages.

I just find it odd when I see people in the United States claiming that some language should be used only by people of a certain ethnicity, because it is "theirs," when the language in question is the national language of a country that has immigration to it. Immigrants to that country (or expats there, long term temporary workers, etc) are going to learn that language, the country is usually encouraging that, there is social pressure to learn it.

We started talking about language because of some comment in one of the tumblr posts about how people who are not Jewish should not be using Hebrew or Yiddish words (even as slang in the middle of English). I responded to that comment because I see the same said about other languages (that *I* speak) all the time, and the comment annoys me about those languages too.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Oil - I think that gardenvarietycitizen means that Hebrew is sort of a private language among Jews in the diaspora, but it's an official language in Israel. Same language, but a very different function. Many immigrants will find that they cannot fully function in Israeli society unless and until they learn Hebrew, so speaking Hebrew in Israel will give someone "privilege".

You've lost me on the Ashkenaz vs. sabra distinction. I always thought that sabra = born in Israel, and Ashkenazi means descended from Central or Eastern European Jews. If someone was born in Israel, but their grandfather was born in Poland, they'd be both sabra and Ashkenazi. I've heard a few people describe themselves as Palestinian Jews, if their families were there prior to 1948.

Yes, exactly.

I'm talking about "privileged language" - when a kid has several languages going on in his life, some are encouraged more than others and are easier to keep current. Generally the language of the school system is the privileged language for any given kid. Kids very often start out speaking only a minority "home language" but as soon as they hit school age, it's a battle to keep both languages current, because the school language very rapidly starts dominating, because society requires it so much more. A kid of any ethnicity is going to quickly have the school language (WHATEVER language that is) become his dominant language, in most cases.

[2xx1xy1JD]

They responded to one of my posts:

http://goynif.tumblr.com/post/50339015191/freejinger

Let’s put it this way- it’s hard to tell people to turn around and murder the neighbors they’ve grown up with. You have to do it in steps. You rouse suspicion. You make those people feel like foreigners. You erase their contributions to the mainstream culture, or separate the contributions from where they came from. You dehumanize them. Etc, etc, etc, until you reach a point where you can turn people on each other.

Ok, I agree with this.

That's not cultural appropriation, though. That's ultra-nationalism, part of which involves treating your culture as a special snowflake, over which you have exclusive ownership and control, which cannot be contaminated by any "outsider". Prime example: Albert Einstein was simply a German scientist during the days of the Weimar Republic, but the Nazis focused on his Jewishness and found that his theories were "un-German". They weren't interested in adopting aspects of Jewish culture - they were doing the opposite and trying to "purify" German culture by erasing elements that were associated with anything or anyone Jewish.

Cultural appropriation doesn’t cause genocide, but it IS part of one of the ways people mistreat/begin to mistreat other cultures. It’s distinct from natural integration, and it’s a problem.

I'm still not seeing evidence that it is related to actual mistreatment, when it is not accompanied by attempts to demean or diminish the original culture. Spaniards stealing gold and other resources from indigenous people in the New World? Yeah, that would be an example of bad appropriation, since it led to smallpox and slavery and warfare and destruction of peoples and cultures. Using some Yiddish phrases or getting a bad Hebrew tatoo? Not seeing the damage. Someone obviously forgot to tell Mordecai Richler or Leo Rosten that Yiddish was the equivalent of a secret handshake, never to be revealed, since they clearly introduced it to the general public. Tatoos may be against Jewish law, but I really don't have any influence over anyone other than myself, my spouse and my minor children. What others do with their bodies isn't my concern. As for the concern that they have somehow "stolen" my extra special private alphabet....they haven't. The original paleo-Hebrew alphabet is rarely seen outside of academic circles. Instead, what we think of as the Hebrew alphabet today is actually the Aramaic script....because we took it from the Arameans. See the irony?

[2xx1xy1JD]

The crux of the matter seems to be very much in the aim of this tumblr.

If you look at it very theoretically, you could say that there are only two reasons to talk/write. Expression or Effect.

("I hate you!" or "Pass me the salt please").

If the aim of this tumblr is just for these girls to express their anger about cultural appropriation, then they have succeeded. It is clear to all that they are pissed off about what they feel is people stealing their safe place & culture.

However, if their aim is to get people to become aware of cultural appropriation, and eventually stop doing it, this might not be the way to go.

And I don't feel that's tone-policing, that's just pointing out what works when (and what doesn't).

It seems like this tumblr has become a legitimate social justice issue being handled by very angry, shouty people. And again, they have a right to their anger, but they shouldn't be surprised that people might not react as they hoped. That they might engender anger & irritation back, instead of confessions of guilt and declarations of cease & desist.

Slighty OT, but this is the first I've heard of the latest faux-pas of "tone-policing".

Why is this a bad thing, exactly?

I mean, I understand the need for venting. If you want to engage in primal scream therapy or write horrible things in your diary, go ahead. If you engage with the rest of the world, though, people are going to react to you. That's how the world works.

I'm also pretty sure that I spend a fair portion of my personal and professional life "tone-policing", from the moment that I tell my kid that I don't respond to yelling, to the moment that I tell a client not to fight with an ex over email, to the moment that I convert angry ramblings from a client into firm-but-polite lawyer-speak, to the time that I collect all of the insults, swearing and name-calling in emails/texts/audio files and use it in court to show that the other side shouldn't have joint custody and my client may even require a restraining order. "But I'm ANGRY" doesn't excuse everything and give you a free pass.

[oil]

oil, so this is where it's gets tricky.

I have to answer separately to be easier for my brain to translate.

When you used ethnicity, do you mean something similar to what is meant when people in the west use "race"?** or do you use it to mean group bound by common cultural practices?

Yes, I use ethnicity to mean as "race", although I think we agree "race" is not the best exact word since "race" is a sociology invention. But for this, ethnicity=race (kind-of lol).

Are sabra "racially" (and i know it's a bad word, but its the best I can do at this point) and culturally sephardic?

Sabra and Sephard are "racially"/ethnically and culturally not the same.

Why mandatory palestine, which was a pretty arbitrary distinction anyway?

Thats the name Im familiar with as being our homeland before the war. Arabs and ethnic Sabras lived there as the major of the population for thousands of years together. If you ask my grandparents where they were born and where their grandparents were born, they say Palestine. If you ask them why in Torah it says "Israel" and "Israelites", that say because thats the land the Hebrew people were promised to them by G-d, a land of hope for some day, but the land they live on is Palestine. Not any more do they say this, they say "we live in Israel, we are Israelis".

How does it work? are there two jewish ethnicities?

There are more than two Jewish ethnicities. Sabra, Askenaz, Sephard, Mizrahi, Ethiopian and Yemeni. They are different because of phenotype. If you have one of each Jewish group standing here, the ethnic distinctive face and body appearances are clear. With the race/ethnic Yemeni (I dont mean the nationality), they are more racially Mizrahi but they have very different way of practicing Judaism in their litergy although the beliefs are the same ones. But phenotypically, Yemeni and Mizrahi are the same. The Askenaz are the group who have "Yiddishkeit" as very important to their culture. The other groups dont follow that way.

were there once two nations? or, prior to israel/back in the days of the pale, was there one askhanazi Jewish nation + sephardic Jews (who, without the contiguous territory and specific language were much less "distinct" as a community than the ashk. jews)?

There were never two nations. Thousands of years ago, every Jew was Sabra, meaning all came from the same root people born in the same land. Some left, went to Europe (became ethnic Askenaz), North Africa (Mizrahi), Sephard (Iberia), Ethiopia. After thousands of years, the different groups of Jews develop the genotype and phenotype of the people with whom they live. So all Jews are not the same people any more by the blood.

The newer meaning of Sabra has nothing to do with ancestry. Its become any born-in-Israel person. There are some ancestral Sabra who feel a superior way to other kind of ethnic Jews, so they dont like the newer meaning of Sabra. But those kind of feelings are dying away.

[oil]

My understanding is sabra are Jews who were born in Israel, not necessarily descended from Jews whose anscestors came from Palestine. I have Israeli cousins who consider themselves sabras, even though their grandparents or great-grandparents emigrated from Eastern Europe. As I understand it, they are Ashkenazi sabras, as opposed to Sephardic sabras.

The way it is more becoming, yes Sabra had the meaning changed by the Jewish emigrees to mean any person born in Israel. So there are Palestinian Sabras, Sephard Sabras, Askenaz Sabras, Ethiopian Sabras, Mizrahi Sabras. Its espacially a good idea because since they must do military service for Israel, they represent the tsabar (sabra) fruit that is strong with thorns on the out side and sweet good-ness tasting on the inside. Thats what the name Sabra comes from and it belongs to all the Jews.

[pimpom]

Slighty OT, but this is the first I've heard of the latest faux-pas of "tone-policing".

Why is this a bad thing, exactly?

I mean, I understand the need for venting. If you want to engage in primal scream therapy or write horrible things in your diary, go ahead. If you engage with the rest of the world, though, people are going to react to you. That's how the world works.

Really 2xx1xy1JD, you simply must try to keep up more with the latest faux-passes and sensitivity-of-the-week. ;)

Totally agree with you there re bolded. I guess the pissed offness might could come from people/women who've been told all their life to 'keep sweet' or 'talk nicely', and have never been allowed to express the anger they feel. And indeed, by all means, express your anger, but be aware that it will engender a reaction, and also/especially that your message might very well go unheard, because your tone of delivery is obliterating everything else.

[jaelh]

Thank you all, for your answers. I'd not identified "non-askh" Jews as more than one group before, so this clears things up, enormously.

On the tone policing: to use another example, at the time of the early women's rights movements in the west, activists were decried at unladylike, aggressive etc... Yet if they hadn't been, they'd not have gotten what they sought. The whole "well mannered women rarely make history" kind of thing.

Here, clearly there's a mismatch, because - as the blog keeps saying - they're not out to change anyone's mind. Thus, the anger isn't to achieve anything, it's just to be angry. Anger isn't illegitimate, you can be as angry as you like. Some forms of "tone policing" say - you can't be angry. That's a problem. Others say - you can't express you anger that way. That's *not* so much a problem, depending the form it comes in - telling a teen to pull their head in is not the same as refusing blacks in apartheid sth africa the right to peaceful protest.

But what is called 'tone policing' along the lines of "you get more flies with honey" - that's not tone policing, it's nothing more than a factual statement. And when it comes from other members of the group that you're purporting to be speaking for, and says you're doing us damage? that's always worth listening to, even if you don't agree or take it on board.

I find 'tone policing'! is used to reject any comment on the form of argument. it's a pity cause some forms of tone policing are very wrong, and should be id'd as such. We lose much of the power of an idea in its dilution.

[oil]

If you don't like Jews, you're bad (and I agree with that).

Just want to say if some one doesnt like Jews, its good ok with me, only dont kill me. :D

[Carla Bruni]

Wow, I really ruffled some feathers over there by suggesting that they, uh, start caring about that whole Never Again thing...

WOW some people on freejinger are fucking gross

My family is STILL SEARCHING for people who went missing in the Holocaust, because we don’t know if they survived

Still trying to reclaim family heirlooms lost in it

Relatives who fled with nothing, who lost all they owned and barely escaped with their lives, have suffered illnesses or DIED because they couldn’t afford proper medical care

Shit, my mother’s side had trouble affording /food/ at some points

But, y’know, it’s a little “old†to complain about something that ‘happened 60someodd years ago’, even though my family is still living the effects to this day.

I really hate people.

Yeah. I know. Mine too. STILL DOESN'T LET YOU BE AN ASSHOLE. It's always a good idea to try to step back and figure out what sort of practical value your actions may have, and how to expand that practical value and put your privileged position to good use. Repeating BUT THE HOLOCAUST!!!!111oneone over and over again isn't actually going to change anything. You can't just say BUT THE HOLOCAUST and have everyone just bow down and accept everything that comes out of your mouth - it doesn't work that way, it's not a magic spell that automatically validates every rude or silly statement you make.

Because I have a feeling you might want to turn this into a Who's Done More game, I do actually work with the UN on supporting human rights defenders among a certain oppressed population that faces many of the same issues Jews did, including cultural appropriation. In their case, though, it's being done purely for political purposes to destroy their culture, which makes it about 10,000 times worse than someone stupidly getting a tattoo they can't read. I feel that my experience as a descendant of Holocaust victims has helped me better identify with the descendants of victims of extrajudicial killings in this group, and it also makes me a stronger advocate for their cause.

My problem with the hysteria you've unleashed regarding the appropriation issue is that it cheapens the struggles of people in situations like the above, where the appropriation is a targeted government policy carried out by a brutal regime for political gain (diluting their culture to prevent them from seeking outside assistance for instances of proven persecution). If these people's biggest problem was a bunch of hipsters wearing their national dress and using their words, they'd be really fucking happy. Unfortunately, their biggest problem is getting tortured by state security forces, with their eyes gouged out and all. Actually, the totally white European/American people who work with them in the field are *encouraged* to wear their national dress (one colleague of mine said her "native host mother" "loved" the fact that my colleague wanted to wear it while working, and I got one outfit as a gift - my hosts took about a million pictures of me in it and beamed with pride, even though I looked like a colorful sack of potatoes). All of this is apparently despite the fact that their national dress is intrinsically tied to their political struggle, which has claimed tens of thousands of lives (within a very, very small population - maybe 200,000 total in the beginning) and during which the wearing of said national dress became a symbol of both standing up against oppression and forming a national identity amongst a nomadic group. So, uh... yeah, really not getting the whole appropriation thing, sorry.

ETA: You're going to say, of course, that the above is obviously fine because the group invited me to share in their cultural symbol with them... which raises a good point - who within a group gets to decide who's allowed/invited to share in a cultural practice or symbol and who isn't? In other words, who died and made you Queen of Everything Jew? How come you get to decide what's okay to take and what isn't?

Drumroll please! I have a question!

What do you think about goyim using Jewish names for their kids? If a Bethany from Arkansas names her kid Rivka because she thinks it's purrrrdy~*, is that offensive? Or circumcision, that's a good one - after all, that was a big issue during the Holocaust? If you're saying that a big part of the issue with appropriating Yiddish/Hebrew words is that Jews have trouble distinguishing other Jews as a result (which is kind of ridiculous in itself, but whatev), shouldn't circumcision be atop your list of Great Goyische Evils?! Would only make sense, really.

Look asshole, I have my BA in fucking genocide studies and I do all this shit, I do volunteer work, I want to work in prevention education- and guess what? I’m also still angry over how many family were and ARE TO THIS DAY TREATED, and I’m not gonna shut up about it. I have every damn right to express it, so how ‘bout you fuck off with your elitism and your ridiculous idea that YOU get to tell ME how to handle my family’s ongoing struggles with persecution, or what makes my complaints “validâ€.

This is also why I asked about these "ongoing struggles" of which you speak in middle-class America. My father wasn't allowed to study physics in his home country on account of being a Jew and all, and I've been openly told by some of my (unfortunately still) fellow citizens elsewhere that they're really sorry, but they really just don't think I should exist. That said, as I look around my privileged, educated, worldly life in a first world country, I still struggle to find examples of actual "persecution" in the here and now. I actually have a big problem with people misusing the term "persecution" (just like "socialism", "communism", "fascism" and so on), because it cheapens the application of the term to actual persecution people are faced with elsewhere. Lest you think that I'm simply not enough of a Jew to experience persecution now, I have plenty of SuperJew conservative and observant friends who also seem to have trouble finding struggles to apply to themselves.

P.S. Here's a helpful hint: explaining what forms of mistreatment you face, instead of getting your knickers in a twist over noshing, is a better way to endear people to your cause.

I absolutely will not tolerate non-Jews appropriating our culture or trying to take the Jews out of Judaism / Jewish things away from Jews, and if you think otherwise, you’re a fucking moron and contributor to ongoing oppression, so screw you.

"If you think otherwise, you're a fucking moron" is always a winning argument :mrgreen: I thought you were all open to discussing the issue with other Jews (as opposed to everyone else, because no one is allowed to have an opinion on the experiences of a group unless they're a member of that group, right?)?

[Savoring Samsara]

Really 2xx1xy1JD, you simply must try to keep up more with the latest faux-passes and sensitivity-of-the-week. ;)

Totally agree with you there re bolded. I guess the pissed offness might could come from people/women who've been told all their life to 'keep sweet' or 'talk nicely', and have never been allowed to express the anger they feel. And indeed, by all means, express your anger, but be aware that it will engender a reaction, and also/especially that your message might very well go unheard, because your tone of delivery is obliterating everything else.

Like so many other aspects of the Social Justice Warrior tumblr subculture, the tone argument started out with an excellent point - it's really assholish to expect people who have experienced oppression to be 24/7 kind, reasonable, and polite to the same people who are saying and doing hurtful and offensive things, and for the perpetrators of said offenses to beg off from any sort of objections by saying, "well, I didn't know it was so bad to imply that women who are raped were asking for it (just to give an example), and maybe if you weren't so angry about it I'd be more willing to listen to you." Now it goes more like:

:? I'm not sure I agree that all use of Yiddish words by a non-Jew is necessarily cultural appropriation because [list of reasons].

:angry-cussing: OMG WTF DIAF YOU FUCKING ANTI-SEMITIC SHITHEAD, I BET YOU WOULD HAVE BEEN ON HITLER'S SIDE. etc etc

:? Hey, I don't appreciate personal attacks - I just want to have a conversation here.

:angry-cussing: OMG HOW DARE YOU TONE POLICE ME.

And thus is the migration of the meaning of "tone policing" to become "somebody I was having a discussion with asked me not to call them names" complete.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Thanks. I did my obligatory 5 min of google research on tone policing and read Urban Dictionary.

IF the problem is using double standards (expecting women or minorities to "keep sweet" but tolerating a more aggressive tone with others), that's BS which should be called out.

If the problem is that someone's right to their own feelings and frustrations is being denied, esp. if it is being done in an asshole-ish way (eg. "why are all these bitches so touchy about rape jokes?"), that could also be a problem.

Finally - and this is what I deal with IRL as well as online - you have people who may be feeling angry/powerless because of what they have gone through in life, and/or who may be particularly triggered by things, and/or who may have other issues that stop them from "keeping sweet". I also see some issues of culture and class. Some cultures encourage people to be louder than others, and I've also noticed that some clients of mine see being really aggressive as the way to stand up for themselves, and don't realize that their behavior is perceived by courts and social workers as boorish, low class or even a sign of psychological problems. FWIW, I do more "tone policing" with men than women, because men have been more socialized to react with anger instead of tears, and to place a value on acting tough. I spend a fair bit of time each day trying to teach people how to communicate better, and re-packaging what they tell me into more acceptable and effective ways. [i'm a divorce lawyer. Anger is a given, and it's not productive in settlement meetings or court or with social workers.]

Here's the thing: you can take any tone you want, but you can't control how someone will react to you. In forums with heavier moderation, certain stuff won't fly no matter how angry you are. In real life, you can't punch someone out or threaten them just because they said something nasty, or you may get arrested.

As for your own blog/tumblr or sites/blogs without much moderation - free speech reigns. Personally, if I see a poorly written rant, lacking in logic but full of someone just spewing obscenities and hate, I'm not going to stick around. I did this with one blogger who responded to me asking for sources by saying "fuck off bitch and go back to your kitchen". He's now talking to the walls, and it's pretty much crickets on his blog. Same thing with another board that I posted on. I liked the owner, but she had PCOS and would periodically go on rants and get into stupid fights. I tried helping (at one point I was a mod of a section), but at a certain point, she just burned too many bridges. Now, that board consists of periodic "where did everybody go??" I know she was going through a lot with her health and I wish her well, but that doesn't erase the fact that she was flying off the handle, and we didn't want to deal with it anymore. Nobody online HAS to listen to you. You have free speech and can say what you want on your own blog, but you can't stop anyone from simply dismissing you because of your tone, or snarking on you. That's not "silencing" - that's free speech and accepting that freedom to criticize is part of the package. There is no right to freedom from criticism.

[Maggie Mae]

The tumblr posters sound very young. Between the "can you not" and the "gross," I'm thinking 17-20 years old, and that after they finish university and get a job in the real world, they will calm down and learn how to communicate like grown ups.

I dislike anything that comes off as a TTC (Thought Terminating Cliche), like "tone policing" or "fat-shamer" or "life's unfair." It doesn't help the discussion at all, and serves only to shut down communication.

Hebrew is a language spoken by 7 million people. It's not something that one person from that 7 million people can claim and say that no one else can use it or speak it. There is a Rosetta Stone to teach Hebrew, and no one checks your religion or ethnicity before purchase. But you know what? You can not tell other people what they can and can not put on their bodies. Well, you can tell them not to get a tattoo, but the person getting the tattoo has the right to tell you to fuck off. And you can bitch about it on your tumblr, but that is not going to stop people from getting the tattoos.

And it sounds like they are pretty damn well off if the biggest thing they have to complain about is other people's tattoos.

[oil]

Yeah. I know. Mine too. STILL DOESN'T LET YOU BE AN ASSHOLE. It's always a good idea to try to step back and figure out what sort of practical value your actions may have, and how to expand that practical value and put your privileged position to good use. Repeating BUT THE HOLOCAUST!!!!111oneone over and over again isn't actually going to change anything. You can't just say BUT THE HOLOCAUST and have everyone just bow down and accept everything that comes out of your mouth - it doesn't work that way, it's not a magic spell that automatically validates every rude or silly statement you make.

Your whole long post was GREAT! I only copied this part of it to say its like that guy acts like hes the only Jewish family suffered the holocaust experience. You tell him, Carla Bruni! :dance:

[Soldevi]

And it sounds like they are pretty damn well off if the biggest thing they have to complain about is other people's tattoos.

And when someone dares to wear a scarf! Eleventy!

[JesusFightClub]

Hmmm. Interesting. I've seen a few of those kind of "stop fucking with my culture" blogs, but never a Jewish one before.

Strongly have to take issue with this:

if you’re talking about israel/palestine and someone calls your arguments anti-semitic, please consider the tone and the specific word choices of what may otherwise be a valid argument.

That's reblogged from somewhere else, but obviously agreed with. It doesn't seem valid for a couple of reasons.

Firstly, that *is* tone-policing. Is there a special tone one should use to discuss that particular situation, which one is being antisemitic if one fails to adopt? If so, what would it be?

Obviously, the person isn't being blatantly antisemitic here, because I doubt the advice to an obvious antisemite would be "Please consider your tone". So what are they doing wrong? It's a topic which stirs strong emotions (ask me how I know) and so people are going to react emotionally.

Secondly, how does this person get to decide what is a "valid" argument in the context of Israel/Palestine anyway? If it was antisemitic, then obviously it would not be valid, but we're already told this person isn't an antisemite, it's just that tone has magically transformed a political argument...and, that the privileged side gets to pick the tone and arguments permitted, at that. What if a Palestinian who had family affected by the conflict was arguing with a Jewish American? Privilege lines are shifting here faster than anyone can keep track of.

[JesusFightClub]

Oh, and forgot to say - a BA in genocide studies is pretty cool. There ought to be a club for those of us who do/will do/did Weird Shit at Uni. :)

[Carla Bruni]

Your whole long post was GREAT! I only copied this part of it to say its like that guy acts like hes the only Jewish family suffered the holocaust experience. You tell him, Carla Bruni! :dance:

Thank you! :mrgreen:

My last bit of actual advice to the Tumblr author who wants to work in the field of prevention education with a BA in genocide studies, yet cannot seem to carry on a respectful conversation on Tumblr of all places, is this: if you actually want to work in prevention education, you're going to need to clean up your act, start opening your mind to the views of other people, learn how to set forth a constructive (non-hysterical) argument, and accept that there's no ultimate truth in this field. How exactly do you plan on working in prevention education if you make a conscious decision to shield yourself from the evil goyim you're supposed to be educating? Setting forth arguments that only work amongst a circle jerk of identically-minded individuals gets you nowhere - trust me, I have to tell my people this all the time. God forbid you go into political lobbying or advocacy - you're going to need to speak to some very unsympathetic people all the time, and your job is going to depend on you being able to set forth reasonable arguments.

P.S. UN confidence-building measures in conflict resolution nearly always include a series of UN-sponsored cultural exchange events. If you want to even so much as dip a toe into this field, you're going to need to let go of this "all Jew things are mine all mine all mine all the things!!!!111" attitude really fast.

And finally...

1. Your little hashtag of "# ALSO LOL EVERYONE'S A -INSERT GROUP- ON THE INTERNET WHEN IT HELPS THEM IN A FIGHT" in response to a quote from my post is, quite frankly, disgusting, but also completely hypocritical - you whine that people don't respect your "struggles"~*, yet automatically dismiss people whose families have faced the same struggles but who don't agree with you as being not Jewish enough. Obviously. You remind me of those "men" shouting "goyim, goyim" at the women who want to pray at the Western Wall. Who needs anti-Semitism when you're more than happy to tear your own kind to shreds by yourself? Stop and think about that for a second, you great educator of genocide prevention you.

2. You never did answer my question about the "appropriation" of circumcision and Jewish names, both of which were major issues during the Holocaust. Is this because you don't have an answer? I'd love to know.

[jaelh]

The tumblr posters sound very young. Between the "can you not" and the "gross," I'm thinking 17-20 years old, and that after they finish university and get a job in the real world, they will calm down and learn how to communicate like grown ups.

One of them must be in her 30's: there's a post somewhere about graduating college 10 years ago, followed by a "yeah, i'm old" remark.

The mind boggles.

[crazyforkate]

Four for you, Carla Bruni, you go Carla Bruni! You are just tearing up this thread.

[Carla Bruni]

Four for you, Carla Bruni, you go Carla Bruni! You are just tearing up this thread.

Thank you thank you thank you, especially for the Mean Girls reference!

[Arete]

Some of the finger wagging on some of the issues on the Tumblr.....take their ruling about the Hamsa, or evil eye charm :evil-eye: . The site gives a list of those who may use it according to their idea of who has the right (Jews, Arab Muslims, Levantine Christians), and categorizes anybody else as committing cultural appropriation. They specifically state don't wear them if you aren't a part of group x, y, or z.

Well, I don't think everybody is on the same page as to whether wearing an evil eye charm is or is not cultural appropriation. Evil eye charms are sold in abundance to tourists in both Greece and Turkey. I haven't been to Israel, so I couldn't say. No one is made to prove they are on the preferential group list to purchase these charms in those places. In fact, merchants tend to be pretty tickled when others show interest (cha-ching!). Along comes this Tumblr, and maybe another one about Arabic cultural appropriation, to say that you may not wear in if you are not in specific clubs. So who is right? The people who are cool with this piece of folk culture being shared, or the people not OK with it? They need to seriously ask themselves if micromanaging down to the level of folk customs is really going to make a dent in the actual serious problems, like a movement to trick people into accepting Christianity by disguising it as Judaism.

Ranting is good, ranting is cool, ranting has its place. But if the overarching aim is to stop cultural appropriation, you need to start the conversation with a better hook than "You thieving goy!'.

[thoughtful]

2xx1xy1JD and Carla Bruni, glad to see you've joined this thread since I last checked it.

Despite the intelligence of your posts, I think some of them are very caught up in the mindset that any Jew who isn't exactly as angry as they are, about exactly the same things, is an Uncle Tom. So, our opinions may be relegated to the "as bad as non-Jews" trash heap in their estimation.

I do wish one could tell who is posting there -- there seem to be more than just the three people listed in the "about us." Some of them seem able to have a discussion, and some just seem to be in a constant dither, and there doesn't seem to be a way to tell who's who unless they sign posts.

AreteJo wrote:

They need to seriously ask themselves if micromanaging down to the level of folk customs is really going to make a dent in the actual serious problems, like a movement to trick people into accepting Christianity by disguising it as Judaism.

This.

[Rachel333]

Okay, I'm not Jewish and I'm not trying to say what people can or can't do, I've just been genuinely curious what you all think about something and this thread is at least somewhat related.

What do you all think about someone who was/is genuinely Jewish and converted to Christianity (or another religion, I suppose)? Can they still identify as Jewish and incorporate Jewish traditions into their own religious practices?

I've actually heard of Muslims as well who converted to Christianity while still believing in a lot of Islam (and vice versa, come to think of it) and continuing some Muslim practices (as a matter of genuine belief, not just those who continue to observe to avoid being disowned or worse). It's odd, definitely, but I find it pretty interesting as well and you can't tell someone what to believe. Practice can be a different matter, though, I suppose, which is why I was curious about others' opinions on this.

[yewchapel]

I don't think that would be appropriation. A Jewish person who converts to Christianity is still culturally/ethnically Jewish, after all.

I know Muslims who have converted to Christianity who pray in the Muslim way (including the ritual washing), but facing Jerusalem instead of Mecca, and also still avoid alcohol (it is not usual for Christians to abstain from alcohol in the UK since most are Catholic or Anglican). As a Christian, I think this is perfectly OK. There is more flexibility with Christian practice IME though.