That wife: Agnostic

[LilMissMetaphor]

I commented how stupid the idea that we actually know if we are going to like parenting is before we have actually done it.

Whether or not we like parenting has no bearing on whether or not we can--or should--do a good job at it, once the kids are actually born.

[LilMissMetaphor]

So what precisely is snarkable about that?

Who cares? We don't have a definition of what's snarkably acceptable. To each his own snark. Don't start, or even perpetuate, that stupid "FJ's sole purpose is to snuff out the wicked patriarchs and anything else is just trivial!!!" shit.

[Conuly]

Whether or not we like parenting has no bearing on whether or not we can--or should--do a good job at it, once the kids are actually born.

No, but if you suck at it, for whatever reason (and I wouldn't dream of speculating here), isn't it better to acknowledge your weaknesses and move on?

Children deserve good parents, but if they can't get that, quality childcare is better than not so great parenting and no respite.

It's not like the choice here is between a nanny or a well-bonded mother who wants to spend lots of time with her kids. The choice is between a nanny or somebody who has a really hard time dealing with small children and doesn't seem to particularly enjoy them. Sure, she shouldn't have had kids... and especially not more than one of them. But it's done. Getting help seems like it can only be a positive move for the kids.

[treemom]

Who cares? We don't have a definition of what's snarkably acceptable. To each his own snark. Don't start, or even perpetuate, that stupid "FJ's sole purpose is to snuff out the wicked patriarchs and anything else is just trivial!!!" shit.

No, but I get to comment if I don't think it is snark able. It works both ways.

And yeah, um I never said that or said anything close to that. But nice try.

[treemom]

No, but if you suck at it, for whatever reason (and I wouldn't dream of speculating here), isn't it better to acknowledge your weaknesses and move on?

Children deserve good parents, but if they can't get that, quality childcare is better than not so great parenting and no respite.

It's not like the choice here is between a nanny or a well-bonded mother who wants to spend lots of time with her kids. The choice is between a nanny or somebody who has a really hard time dealing with small children and doesn't seem to particularly enjoy them. Sure, she shouldn't have had kids... and especially not more than one of them. But it's done. Getting help seems like it can only be a positive move for the kids.

And if a well bonded mother wants to use a nanny that is totally cool too.

[treemom]

I get that and I agree. But for most it is not a norm.

I think your honesty is refreshing about the like thing. I was very lucky in that sense, in regards to a good friend who told me forget these mothers with instant love, it is ok not to have that. She told me she looked at her newborn and felt nothing. I felt the same. I would have killed anybody who touched her though. Like took some time. Horses for courses.

But I had her because I wanted to. Therefore good or bad it was my deal. THAT made me a good mum. I thought it would be some natural thing, fuck that. I had to learn how to be a mum. I think maybe Jenna missed that. It took me 6 whole weeks of pretending that this messiah was my goal in life. It hit me one day like a train. Never gone back she is my life now. No guilt.

I would be prepared for that 2nd time around. Unfortunately not the case. I do feel sorry for her (Jenna). But I also feel she just does not want to learn. My child has been my defining moment. I literally would lay down my life for her. I would easily put aside all my moral and legal paths in life for her. I would not apologise for that. Or tell her. It is what it is. I certainly do not want to burden her with that.

I'm just probably talking crap. But her kids are never dirty. Dirt is good. As are odd matching clothes and shit. Life is not a blog picture :(

Meh. My kid wasn't dirty very often either. Not all kids like dirt.

But here is the thing, I think Jenna has learned and getting the nanny is part of that. She even admitted it has what has made their field trip Wednesdays possible.

And I don't think sacrificing everything is the defining good mom moment. I certainly wouldn't. And I certainly wouldn't put aside All legal or moral paths.

It is fine you want to, but that is not the only thing that defines a good parent (or a mature or learned parent either). It is merely one of many acceptable parenting styles.

[OkToBeTakei]

No, but if you suck at it, for whatever reason (and I wouldn't dream of speculating here), isn't it better to acknowledge your weaknesses and move on?

Children deserve good parents, but if they can't get that, quality childcare is better than not so great parenting and no respite.

It's not like the choice here is between a nanny or a well-bonded mother who wants to spend lots of time with her kids. The choice is between a nanny or somebody who has a really hard time dealing with small children and doesn't seem to particularly enjoy them. Sure, she shouldn't have had kids... and especially not more than one of them. But it's done. Getting help seems like it can only be a positive move for the kids.

BUT she is still a fanny :lol:

She could try though. I really think she makes it easier for herself and then tries to justify it. I think if you look at a broad spectrum of mums around the world they would all maybe choose that path. She does a good job of trying to justify by listening to those she wants to listen to. Don't we all. She does not want to hear it. Because she has a choice. Fair play. I think she is lazy tbh. (my impression.)

But I do think she should get on with it. The getting on with it, makes you learn, it makes you less self-centred it makes you a better person.

I was too busy getting on with it to think about some huge shift in my religious life, I was too busy having fun and shit times to actually think about myself. It made me a better person because it was not about me. She needs to get on with it and just ..get on with it. She might find it will be the making of her. She defines her life by the interwebs. THAT scares the fuck out of me.

[treemom]

I think that is just a different personality type

And yeah, i agree with a lot of what you said there oktbt, but I think whether someone learns by doing or learns by introspection is a personality type, not a definitive this is how things are.

And she is lazy. And yes, I think she justifies what she wants to believe by listening to certain people.

[OkToBeTakei]

Meh. My kid wasn't dirty very often either. Not all kids like dirt.

But here is the thing, I think Jenna has learned and getting the nanny is part of that. She even admitted it has what has made their field trip Wednesdays possible.

And I don't think sacrificing everything is the defining good mom moment. I certainly wouldn't. And I certainly wouldn't put aside All legal or moral paths.

It is fine you want to, but that is not the only thing that defines a good parent (or a mature or learned parent either). It is merely one of many acceptable parenting styles.

Well I would kill for mine. Brutal and honest. So indeed I have thought about the moral/legal aspect. SO anti gun as you know I can be on this board and I am vociferous, it is like all bets are off. So strange for me. I do hope it never is required. OH meet her Dad. He makes me look good :)

She dresses her child in very cool clothes. I buy those sort of clothes. But no kid does not like getting in and dirty if it is required. We are beach folks. The amount of times on the beach with a BBQ when I tell the kid don't worry about getting wet. They say my mum does not like it. Even after they get wet they look uncomfortable. WHAT is that all about? It should be about what they want to do. I'm the one trying to dry out bloody Boden and Converse. *I* will deal with the parents the kids just need to be kids.

I work. I use my degree. I tell my child why I do that. I want to be a role model for a female child. I also want to tell her I was there for her and it was not always my first choice. But hand on heart it was never a 'chore' the way TW describes. She's a selfish person in my view. Having kids is not a good thing when that is your natural default.

[OkToBeTakei]

I think that is just a different personality type

And yeah, i agree with a lot of what you said there oktbt, but I think whether someone learns by doing or learns by introspection is a personality type, not a definitive this is how things are.

And she is lazy. And yes, I think she justifies what she wants to believe by listening to certain people.

Cross posted. Sorry on my Scottish soap box :lol:

[desertvixen]

I am so tired of "good mothers" being defined in a narrow way but fathers don't have the nearly the same stringency. I was most struck by the fact he travels all week and then physically goes into the office on Saturday. That seems like something to snark on.

This. I know we do snark on That Jerk, but the whole part where he apparently cares more about locking up cheese than ensuring his kids are getting what they need irritates me.

[treemom]

Well I would kill for mine. Brutal and honest. So indeed I have thought about the moral/legal aspect. SO anti gun as you know I can be on this board and I am vociferous, it is like all bets are off. So strange for me. I do hope it never is required. OH meet her Dad. He makes me look good :)

She dresses her child in very cool clothes. I buy those sort of clothes. But no kid does not like getting in and dirty if it is required. We are beach folks. The amount of times on the beach with a BBQ when I tell the kid don't worry about getting wet. They say my mum does not like it. Even after they get wet they look uncomfortable. WHAT is that all about? It should be about what they want to do. I'm the one trying to dry out bloody Boden and Converse. *I* will deal with the parents the kids just need to be kids.

I work. I use my degree. I tell my child why I do that. I want to be a role model for a female child. I also want to tell her I was there for her and it was not always my first choice. But hand on heart it was never a 'chore' the way TW describes. She's a selfish person in my view. Having kids is not a good thing when that is your natural default.

My kid did not like getting dirty. Ever. My kid who summited Kilimanjaro last year does not and did not like getting dirty.

So you are not correct in "no kid does not like getting in and dirty if it is required".

And while I guess it is good it has never been a chore for you, it sometimes is for others. My weirdly good kid (I say weirdly because I don't think I am the worlds most stellar parent) had a wee bit of homework issues a few weeks ago. I sat him down and told him how much I dislike that sort of parenting and that I far prefer it and enjoy it when he is the good tree vs the bad tree. And that I was just as frustrated by needing to be the parent who has to discipline now than the parent who I usually get to be.

And I am totally ok with that.

[OkToBeTakei]

Well most kids. Apart from yours and I am sure many others. Why does summiting Kilimanjaro have to be mentioned? The clay is red for sure. Sticky stuff. Nightmare on flipflops.

I'm just the parent I have to be. I don't tell my kid it is her responsibility to make me one or the other by her behaviour. She is a kid. I tell her off, I praise her. It is not her responsibility in life to determine how I am as a parent by her actions. Despite this sounding like I am having a go, I am not. I just think we differ. I think Jenna is different. I hope she gets to a place that is better than where she is in herself. I do still think she will get there by spending time with them.

I'm a dinosaur.

[treemom]

Well most kids. Apart from yours and I am sure many others. Why does summiting Kilimanjaro have to be mentioned? The clay is red for sure. Sticky stuff. Nightmare on flipflops.

Wtf? Because it shows he still is allowed to do stuff like get wet at the beach. I didn't keep him from getting dirty like you said parents do, and implied every kid who doesn't like it is clearly getting it from their mother.

My point is you specifically responded to me saying my kid doesn't like to get dirty by saying it isn't true. Which is so, well fuck you to say. The tree boy is almost 13, I know a wee bit more about his likes and dislikes than you do. But thanks for enlightening me.

And there isn't clay on Kilimanjaro.

[OkToBeTakei]

Wtf? Because it shows he still is allowed to do stuff like get wet at the beach. I didn't keep him from getting dirty like you said parents do, and implied every kid who doesn't like it is clearly getting it from their mother.

My point is you specifically responded to me saying my kid doesn't like to get dirty by saying it isn't true. Which is so, well fuck you to say. The tree boy is almost 13, I know a wee bit more about his likes and dislikes than you do. But thanks for enlightening me.

And there isn't clay on Kilimanjaro.

Oh I edited my comment. I don't recall mentioning EVERY child in the world. It was a generalisation. I get bored with personalisation.

It was pretty red as is most of Eastern Africa. Clay is a term we use for earth/mud.

[Milly-Molly-Mandy]

Good for her hiring a nanny! When we have kids we will have then in daycare 4 days a week while I'll work 3 so I get a day off. If we move to the Middle East for husbands work we'll have a full time nanny/housekeeper & the kids will go to preschool part time.

We can afford it so why not? Young kids are exhausting! I was a nanny while at uni & yeah...exhausting. Gorgeous though :)

[Mama Mia]

This. I know we do snark on That Jerk, but the whole part where he apparently cares more about locking up cheese than ensuring his kids are getting what they need irritates me.

Really ? I'm pretty sure if it was the mom working full time and the dad was staying at home with the kid AND got a nanny so he could take tons of time to himself --- people would definitely say he was lazy, and blast him for not having a job on top of it.

[treemom]

Oh I edited my comment. I don't recall mentioning EVERY child in the world. It was a generalisation. I get bored with personalisation.

It was pretty red as is most of Eastern Africa. Clay is a term we use for earth/mud.

I am aware of what clay is. And having been there, there was not clay. Seriously, lots of just normal brown dirt, not red clay. I would remember, I walked 6 miles in mud.

I deleted everything else because I am just tired of it. Your generalizations are a problem. You are clearly judging mothers based on them. Perhaps you need to stop.

[treemom]

Really ? I'm pretty sure if it was the mom working full time and the dad was staying at home with the kid AND got a nanny so he could take tons of time to himself --- people would definitely say he was lazy, and blast him for not having a job on top of it.

Actually I don't think people would. They would say, we'll it s tough for men to stay home with kids.

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

Actually I don't think people would. They would say, we'll it s tough for men to stay home with kids.

I agree. This is why we still get people saying stuff like "Dad is babysitting the kids!" Whereas women are expected to like being with the kids 24/7.

[OkToBeTakei]

I am aware of what clay is. And having been there, there was not clay. Seriously, lots of just normal brown dirt, not red clay. I would remember, I walked 6 miles in mud.

I deleted everything else because I am just tired of it. Your generalizations are a problem. You are clearly judging mothers based on them. Perhaps you need to stop.

Get you :lol:

[treemom]

You know I thought about something else on the drive to work. You, OKTBT shouldn't be telling children to disobey their parents like that. You put kids in really awkward situations when you tell them to disregard what their parents say. I agree it is stupid to send kids to the beach and then tell them not to get wet but you still put the kids in a position of being punished later on.

My son knows if he doesn't want to do something but feels a lot of peer pressure he can say "my mom told me i can't" An example of this is the "mud pit" they have at the summer camp he attended for years. He didn't enjoy it or like it. But there was a tremendous amount of pressure from adults and kids that he should do it. So he just told people his mom said he couldn't.

[yetanothermeg]

Really ? I'm pretty sure if it was the mom working full time and the dad was staying at home with the kid AND got a nanny so he could take tons of time to himself --- people would definitely say he was lazy, and blast him for not having a job on top of it.

I know lots of sahms who have part-time childcare help. I used to be one of them. My husband works long hours and travels for work, we had no family around to help babysit, so it just made sense to have a babysitter come in one day a week. It was easier for me to know she was always coming on Mondays so I could arrange personal appointments that day, rather than make an appointment, call around for a sitter, not find one available, have to reschedule, etc, etc. And if I didn't have a personal appointment scheduled? I sat in a coffee shop and fooled around on the internet while the children were being entertained.

It was a luxury, no doubt, but we all make choices on how we choose to spend any disposable income we might have. Some people eat a lot of take-out/restaurant food, some people go shopping for fun or wear designer clothes, some people outsource labor in the home. As long as you can pay your bills, I don't care how you spend your money.

If this makes me lazy then hells ya, I'm lazy! :D

[Maggie Mae]

I don't really understand the problem with a nanny, if she can afford it, more power to her. There is no reason to demonize someone because they can afford help around the house. Having or not having help does not make anyone a better parent, IMO.

[OkToBeTakei]

You know I thought about something else on the drive to work. You, OKTBT shouldn't be telling children to disobey their parents like that. You put kids in really awkward situations when you tell them to disregard what their parents say. I agree it is stupid to send kids to the beach and then tell them not to get wet but you still put the kids in a position of being punished later on.

My son knows if he doesn't want to do something but feels a lot of peer pressure he can say "my mom told me i can't" An example of this is the "mud pit" they have at the summer camp he attended for years. He didn't enjoy it or like it. But there was a tremendous amount of pressure from adults and kids that he should do it. So he just told people his mom said he couldn't.

I saw this post a few days ago. I kind of laughed. But then I thought that is what you do. Should I reply or not?

Since every post you write is based on you. Yes I am being a bit pointed. Jenna is a fanny but because you did the same now she is ok etc. Sometimes I so want to agree with you. But you are just so self centric I fail to see your point at times.

No. I am not a bloody expert on anything. We are all learning. The parents of those kids are my friends. Some have torn a strip off me. It's life.

I thought you were aiming for less selfish and more kind? After January that was what you said. I think you absolutely tried to pile drive on that Israeli girl because you did not like it. There I said it.

Take it on the chinny, chin, chin.