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NOT my big fat Gypsy Wedding


tropaka

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Agreed. The point is that the other group those that are open to change may well not be if they feel patronised or on the receiving end of a condescending tone.

This thread illustrates it perfectly. Irishy is and always has been very, very clear in all her previous posts on FJ when she is discussing her own cultural/demographic perspective. Also if you look back to old threads she will also look at what others are saying and take it on board EVEN when people have deliberately used or misused her turn of phrase.

I'll put it this way. YOU are a racist. OR. Do you realise what you wrote comes across as racist.

To the first my go to is fuck you. To the second I am most likely ready to dialogue. Human nature.

As for the high ground? It is just common on FJ at times. Sure people can learn from online discussion, I most certainly have and from FJ. This though does not take away from the fact that some also just like to make grand finger pointing posts to rile an already triggering subject which really serves no purpose in my view.

I don't think it is an 'easy out' to say it. It is merely an observation based on the differences with online discussion opposed to how people interact in reality.

That is EXACTLY what I was thinking, OkToBeTakei. Well said.

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Agreed. The point is that the other group those that are open to change may well not be if they feel patronised or on the receiving end of a condescending tone.

This thread illustrates it perfectly. Irishy is and always has been very, very clear in all her previous posts on FJ when she is discussing her own cultural/demographic perspective. Also if you look back to old threads she will also look at what others are saying and take it on board EVEN when people have deliberately used or misused her turn of phrase.

I'll put it this way. YOU are a racist. OR. Do you realise what you wrote comes across as racist.

To the first my go to is fuck you. To the second I am most likely ready to dialogue. Human nature.

As for the high ground? It is just common on FJ at times. Sure people can learn from online discussion, I most certainly have and from FJ. This though does not take away from the fact that some also just like to make grand finger pointing posts to rile an already triggering subject which really serves no purpose in my view.

I don't think it is an 'easy out' to say it. It is merely an observation based on the differences with online discussion opposed to how people interact in reality.

It's cos I'm Irish. I'm so damned drunk all the time. I can't be coherent.

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It's cos I'm Irish. I'm so damned drunk all the time. I can't be coherent.

Strongbow 12 cans for 7 quid in Morrisons today. THESE the important things in life :dance:

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No.

I would tend to some extent agree with the first sentiment. Poncing about on an internet forum picking apart how cultures view the society that they live in and what they see in THEIR own demographic is really easy. Some people love to take the internet high ground on what is labelling or racist. Actually stepping out of that intellectual poncing about and doing something to address it is completely different. Sola I think upthread is the only post where that was touched on.

For that reason I would tend to agree with Lucy Fur. Being condescending or as in some posts a total patronising arse-wipe is not going to help people break out of their range of thinking or cultural stereo-typing and perceived racist views.

Apologies if I've been condescending or a patronising arse-wipe, but some people act like calling out racism is OMG SO MEAN, as if any trauma encountered from being called out on one's racism is somehow equivalent to actually experiencing racism. It's um, not. Being called racist - even if you're not - may well suck. But it's not really on the same level as being deported because of your ethnic group. I think people have actually been VERY restrained and polite when calling out racism in this thread and in the other one. Calling out racism is more important than white people's feelings, because otherwise white people's feelings matter more than non-white people. While I do see your point about education, there are lots of resources on racism out there and you know, Google.

I will say that I am careful to label the action/wording as racist and not the person, though.

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Dang y'all. I am watching this like a ping pong match. I have lived in the american south my whole life and I know that word everybody is throwing at each other is pretty powerful. Im just saying maybe a little more talking and less labeling. Attaching labels to people based on limited contact is sterotyping too.

Agreed.

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I don't really want to get involved but will say until I lived in Europe for 2 years I would have thought Irishy was racist. Now I understand where he/she is coming from.

I feel unless you've lived in Europe & especially if you've lived in a place with a high Romani population you can have very little input to the conversation.

Note I am not saying most Romani are criminals so please don't accuse me of racism. I'm just saying it is a huge issue with complicated histories which non-Europeans have no idea about.

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My only issue with European Nomadic cultures is that they have the patriarchy problem. But then so does the culture I am raising my kid in and to a certain extent I was raised in.

I see a lot of claims about an entire culture of people as problematic. And those claims become a self fulfilling prophesy. The Roma of Hungary died right along side the rest of my family in WWII, and the impacts of the war don't get mentioned much in mainstream discussions about European Nomadic people.

It was much easier for my grandparents, one of whole hid during the war and one of whom survived a concentration camp, to come to America than it was for any of the nomadic cultures. And instead they have institutionalized bigotry against them. What precisely do you expect from people after they are the victims of genocide and discrimination?

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Also, a lot of the language used here was said about Jews before their deportations from their home countries. So, yep even with limited contact I am going to say that language has a level of bigotry to it.

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I don't really want to get involved but will say until I lived in Europe for 2 years I would have thought Irishy was racist. Now I understand where he/she is coming from.

I feel unless you've lived in Europe & especially if you've lived in a place with a high Romani population you can have very little input to the conversation.

Note I am not saying most Romani are criminals so please don't accuse me of racism. I'm just saying it is a huge issue with complicated histories which non-Europeans have no idea about.

Honestly, this is like saying that Europeans can't have an opinion on the first non=segregated prom in *whatever city* in the south because they don't have the same race-relation history as those in the US.

BS is BS, regardless of where it's from.

The context is different, but sometimes, an outside perspective cuts through bullshit better than one that's entwined w/ the history.

---

That said, I sympathize with the outsider trying to "assimilate".

Growing up, my family drove RVs cross country for most of the summers. We'd stay no more than 1 night, usually, when we stopped.

We're not Roma. We don't really look Roma (at least I don't think so). But I can't even count the number of places where people would forbid their children to talk to us kids because we were 'over-nighters/thieves/gypsies/etc".

As an adult, I can find some of it funny. as a 10 year old, I had an urge (which I did'nt give in to), to say "fine, be that way" and steal from them.

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I don't really want to get involved but will say until I lived in Europe for 2 years I would have thought Irishy was racist. Now I understand where he/she is coming from.

I feel unless you've lived in Europe & especially if you've lived in a place with a high Romani population you can have very little input to the conversation.

Note I am not saying most Romani are criminals so please don't accuse me of racism. I'm just saying it is a huge issue with complicated histories which non-Europeans have no idea about.

I don't like this idea that unless you are European (or have lived in Europe for a couple of years) there is some secret thing that you just don't get. I'm a European and I don't get it. I don't understand where Irishy was coming from in those posts (and I think Irishy has since updated her position on this). I would also like to point out that samurai_sarah and yewchapel are Europeans and they have both spoken out against making broad generalisations and assumptions about the Roma.

I do not think there is any great secret, that non-Europeans don't understand, that magically justifies the use of ethnic generalisations about the Roma. And I do think non-Europeans can contribute to this conversation.

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I don't like this idea that unless you are European (or have lived in Europe for a couple of years) there is some secret thing that you just don't get. I'm a European and I don't get it. I don't understand where Irishy was coming from in those posts (and I think Irishy has since updated her position on this). I would also like to point out that samurai_sarah and yewchapel are Europeans and they have both spoken out against making broad generalisations and assumptions about the Roma.

I do not think there is any great secret, that non-Europeans don't understand, that magically justifies the use of ethnic generalisations about the Roma. And I do think non-Europeans can contribute to this conversation.

I don't really get the broad sweep of ethnic generalisation regarding Irishy's statement of her experience. She did not to my knowledge say all Roma are scum. That to me is a broad sweep. What she did say is that in her demographic there is a problem with organised begging and crime as did others on this thread. While I doubt this is uniquely a 'European' problem. I would imagine the residents of New York may have levied a similar complaint back in the 1940's 50's about another culture.

It is what it is. There are good and bad in every culture. There is crime in every culture committed by all races. Identifying the criminals by race/culture is generally the first thing reported.

I do agree you do not have to be European to comment although an understanding of the EU and how that impacts each member country with regard to freedom of movement would be key. I just about get my head around the US being allegedly one country despite each state appearing as a different country to my European mind, just without the passport :lol: Obviously it is good to see all perspectives and views on any subject from any nationality. It can and does make me look at my own views and opinions in regard to race and prejudice. I don't think though as has been done on this thread, substitute one race for another and then repeat the statement to prove the existence of racist intent is of any value. It is naive and inflammatory and personally I think a rather ignorant way to pigeon hole a really complex and specific problem. It also disrespects the individual races/cultures.

Many races/cultures have been the subject of ethnic/cultural cleansing by an oppressor. Mine included. In all these cultures both good and bad exist, both law abiding and not.

That the Roma are discriminated against both in their own countries and elsewhere, have been marginalised, persecuted and driven to poverty is a sad fact. Fear, ignorance and how the average punter on the street sees them is also sadly only going to add to that negativity of feeling if they are committing crime in your society. Quite frankly the ordinary hard working bloke taking out his weekly wage from an ATM and having it stolen is not at that point going to be very open to feeling sympathy for his thief's history of oppression and discrimination. He most certainly will not be open to it if you call him a racist.

It is a far more complex issue than just institutionalised racism.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8226580.stm

The roots of the problem lie in Romania, where Roma have faced discrimination and hostility for generations.

"But the real problem is that some of the Roma actually beg and steal because that's the only chance that they have for surviving."

"The thieving is no longer a national problem. It's happening on an international scale. Our children need to study, because if they carry on like this, if the new generations which grow up now continue in the same way, no-one will have us.

"Our country won't understand us any longer, the Western countries will chase us away."

Liviu Tipurita, who has made films about Roma and child trafficking for many years, has similar fears.

"My fear is that without immediate help the Gypsy child thieves I've encountered in my journey will grow up into hardened criminals," he said. "And the cycle of abuse and exploitation will spiral out of control."

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Apologies if I've been condescending or a patronising arse-wipe, but some people act like calling out racism is OMG SO MEAN, as if any trauma encountered from being called out on one's racism is somehow equivalent to actually experiencing racism. It's um, not. Being called racist - even if you're not - may well suck. But it's not really on the same level as being deported because of your ethnic group. I think people have actually been VERY restrained and polite when calling out racism in this thread and in the other one. Calling out racism is more important than white people's feelings, because otherwise white people's feelings matter more than non-white people. While I do see your point about education, there are lots of resources on racism out there and you know, Google.

I will say that I am careful to label the action/wording as racist and not the person, though.

I was not aware this was a black/white issue?

What you are talking about I assume is 'white privilege.' While absolutely not unique to the complexity of history in the US, I do not get your use of it in this statement.

I have never found you patronising, far from it. What I do think though is that realistically what you are saying is that calling out racism is more important than actually dealing with it. Sorry if that is simplistic but that is how I see it.

If though you are talking within the realms of an internet discussion then I do get it. Because I am very unlikely when faced with racism likely to tell the person standing in front of me to google it.

Anecdote.

A colleague at my work is currently fighting cancer. A relative stopped me the other day and asked 'How is the coloured girl doing?' (like nails across a blackboard..yikes.)

Incidentally she is Sri Lankan. I replied to that effect..'*name* The Sri Lankan girl?' He then proceeded to sing her praises as a nurse in her care of his relative and asked me to specifically pass on his best wishes.

His intent was good. His use of language well intentioned if not politically correct. Real life interaction is sticky and living where I do you hear a lot horrifically racist comments borne from ignorance. It is not always prudent or beneficial to immediately call racist. It IS education and it IS education. This starts at a young age and can help and is helping in racist and bigoted attitudes of some parts of our society.

I hope it is. I can dream right?

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Non-white people are not just black. White people are the only ones being called racist because they're the only ones who are racist (racism being prejudice + power).

Also, calling out racism IS dealing with it. Saying 'yo that's racist' (hopefully) gets that person to not be racist in that way anymore. How is that not dealing with it? Speaking personally I am involved with anti-racism/anti-fascism groups IRL anyway, and most people who call out racism online (which is part of real life anyway) are involved with anti-racism movements elsewhere. Obviously you can only Google online but there are other resources and not being racist is kind of part of being a decent human being. I don't think people should expect to be gently schooled in why they are being racist. It might be nice if they are but the harm they cause is worse than any harm they experience from being racist.

Re your anecdote, while you dealt with it in a good way, it doesn't stop your relative from using 'coloured' again in that context. That would be my concern if the language wasn't immediately called out as racist. Most people don't want to be racist and will stop if they see they are being racist. If that person reacted negatively, that's kind of what I mean by white feelings mattering less than non-white people. If someone is offended by being called racist then their feelings matter more to them than the hurt caused by their racism. That's wrong.

Also addressing the problem of mugging, begging etc by Rroma, the issue is labelling a behaviour as being some kind of ethnic trait. This goes for 'positive' things as well by the way, like black men being better dancers. Are some Rroma thieves? Sure! But they steal because they're arseholes, not because they're Rroma. It's not like crime is in their DNA. Plenty of Rroma don't steal at all.

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Non-white people are not just black. White people are the only ones being called racist because they're the only ones who are racist (racism being prejudice + power).

Also, calling out racism IS dealing with it. Saying 'yo that's racist' (hopefully) gets that person to not be racist in that way anymore. How is that not dealing with it? Speaking personally I am involved with anti-racism/anti-fascism groups IRL anyway, and most people who call out racism online (which is part of real life anyway) are involved with anti-racism movements elsewhere. Obviously you can only Google online but there are other resources and not being racist is kind of part of being a decent human being. I don't think people should expect to be gently schooled in why they are being racist. It might be nice if they are but the harm they cause is worse than any harm they experience from being racist.

Re your anecdote, while you dealt with it in a good way, it doesn't stop your relative from using 'coloured' again in that context. That would be my concern if the language wasn't immediately called out as racist. Most people don't want to be racist and will stop if they see they are being racist. If that person reacted negatively, that's kind of what I mean by white feelings mattering less than non-white people. If someone is offended by being called racist then their feelings matter more to them than the hurt caused by their racism. That's wrong.

Also addressing the problem of mugging, begging etc by Rroma, the issue is labelling a behaviour as being some kind of ethnic trait. This goes for 'positive' things as well by the way, like black men being better dancers. Are some Rroma thieves? Sure! But they steal because they're arseholes, not because they're Rroma. It's not like crime is in their DNA. Plenty of Rroma don't steal at all.

Ok. I'll address the bolded. This type of generalisation is usually the first way to lose any chance of changing what is intrinsically a societal understanding of racism. It immediately brings up in the less well informed immediately any and all ill-conceived instances of what they perceive as that misnomer of reverse racism. You lose the crowd. Not ideal but unfortunately a fact. There are some good threads here regarding this.

The internet is part of real life, but it is not real life. Interaction in real life is far more complex and is governed by many different levels of what is appropriate in a given situation, be that in the realms of your employment or just the realms of something as simple as personal safety. Sorry if I was unclear the 'relative' was not mine but the relative of a patient. It would be highly inappropriate of me in that setting to call him a racist. Morally this may be wrong and in that situation in a polite and leading way I corrected his error. As much as I deplore racism of any sort I am selfishly maybe, not willing to be unemployed to correct him in the manner you describe.

I am also not willing to call out on a crowded train to a large group of drinking youths loudly discussing their need to go to the 'Paki's' that they are racist. I will though quietly tell my child sitting next to me why this is wrong.

As for the labelling as an ethnic trait. That's a difficult one. The organised crime in Dublin regarding begging, human trafficking and theft is run by a group of individuals from a European country. Seriously, that is what I would have to say to be seen as not labelling. You are correct people who commit crime are arseholes. But it is just not how society works to leave it without some form of culturally identifying statement. It always has and always will be left then open to interpretation, generally negative.

One does not need to be active in any form of ant-racist group to actively advocate against racism. But it does take a deeper understanding of how any given society works and how decades of ignorance can inform negative stereotyping without alienating people by calling them racist or 'calling them out' as you said on their racism. It has it's place but it is not always the most successful avenue. I suppose what I am trying to say is that I find this rigid type of thinking unproductive. I would be quite happy to dance around some 'white' fee fees if the end result was to change some racist thinking. I neither care if this is right or wrong, the end result of an end to ignorance, bigotry and discrimination is far more important.

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