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NOT my big fat Gypsy Wedding


tropaka

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No, the Rroma have been deported from France and Italy because they are Rroma and have been forced into illegal camps, not the other way around.

Who has forced them into illegal camps?

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Citizens from a EU country can settle anywhere in the EU on the following conditions:

Right to move and right of residence for up to three months

All Union citizens have the right to enter another Member State by virtue of having an identity card or valid passport. Under no circumstances can an entry or exit visa be required. Where the citizens concerned do not have travel documents, the host Member State must afford them every reasonable means in obtaining the requisite documents or having them sent.

Family members who do not have the nationality of a Member State enjoy the same rights as the citizen who they have accompanied. They may be subject to a short-stay visa requirement under Regulation (EC) No 539/2001. Residence permits will be deemed equivalent to short-stay visas.

For stays of less than three months, the only requirement on Union citizens is that they possess a valid identity document or passport. The host Member State may require the persons concerned to register their presence in the country within a reasonable and non-discriminatory period of time.

Right of residence for more than three months

The right of residence for more than three months remains subject to certain conditions. Applicants must:

either be engaged in economic activity (on an employed or self-employed basis);

or have sufficient resources and sickness insurance to ensure that they do not become a burden on the social services of the host Member State during their stay. The Member States may not specify a minimum amount which they deem sufficient, but they must take account of personal circumstances;

or be following vocational training as a student and have sufficient resources and sickness insurance to ensure that they do not become a burden on the social services of the host Member State during their stay;

or be a family member of a Union citizen who falls into one of the above categories.

http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/ ... migration/

EU citizens also have to have a place to live that is legal. It's not legal to build camps or settlements without a police permit or place a tent or a caravan somewhere for more than one night without a permit from the landowner. From what I understand, the reason that some Roma have been deported from France and Italy because they have been residing there illegally, ie in illegal camps and settlements and don't have a legal reason to stay for more than three months, like working or studying.

Thank you for that. Please don't hesitate to report me to the police, come June. I'm also going to go wild camping next weekend (legal in Scotland under restriction, as I imagine you might know- I seem to recall you used to live in Scotland), so there's an opportunity to report an EU citizen. :roll:

EU law is quite straightforward, which is what is going to allow me to stay. I claim no benefits. My partner supports me for the time being, until I get work. Let's be honest: The EU doesn't give a SHIT until you try claiming benefits. And, I scoff at the idea that it's camping that gets people up in arms. I grew up being told that "gypsies" are dark-skinned people who are thieves and steal children. Yeah, right... :roll:

ETA: Seriously? What if your family had been mugged by "Aryan white people"? What if they had been Swedish? Would you still make the same assumptions about your whole nation? Last time I got robbed it was an English guy. That doesn't mean everyone English is criminal. So, what's your answer?

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I don't make assumptions on whole nations. I only know that my everyday environment, and my parent's environment, has become a lot more insecure because of groups of Roma who chose to come here.

I don't know if all Roma are like this, but right now it is a problem with Roma who go to other countries to get money, one way or another.

I just try to avoid them to stay out of trouble or become a victim of a crime, just like I avoid other people and situations I consider to be risky.

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Yeah, because Swedish people never go to other countries to get money. Protip: HUMANS ARE RISKY. Being from a particular ethnic group does not make one 'more risky' as a person wtf. That is RACISM.

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Who has forced them into illegal camps?

Uh, the French government when they forced the Rroma from their homes? France is their home.

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You avoid a whole group of people because you think they are risky. Wow. What would you say to a white person who avoids black people because they feel like they make the environment insecure and are risky. I mean, statistically a lot of crimes in America are committed by black people. You would not consider that racist?

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Uh, the French government when they forced the Rroma from their homes? France is their home.

I thought they were Romanian citizens?

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You avoid a whole group of people because you think they are risky. Wow. What would you say to a white person who avoids black people because they feel like they make the environment insecure and are risky. I mean, statistically a lot of crimes in America are committed by black people. You would not consider that racist?

Of course I do. I avoid to put myself in situations that I consider to be a risk. Where I live now, I avoid a street corner that has the highest criminal rate in Sweden, I stay away from group of guys or men when I am out alone at night, I try to stay close to groups with women if I take the tube at night, I don't go alone in certain areas of the town, I go to the other side of the street if I meet somebody who looks like he or she is high and I avoid getting into contact with the beggars, who in this case are Roma, who are out on town and watch my purse extra carefully when they are around. I think that most people try to take certain precautions to stay safe.

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Most of the homeless people around here are black. The highest crime areas are where black people live. A lot of crimes are committed by black people. A group of black men have scammed local elderly people in the past. So if a white person here says that they feel like the area has become insecure because black people have arrived and that they avoid them because they consider black people risky, why is that racist, but it isn't racist for you to do the same with people who are Roma?

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I don't make assumptions on whole nations. I only know that my everyday environment, and my parent's environment, has become a lot more insecure because of groups of Roma who chose to come here.

I don't know if all Roma are like this, but right now it is a problem with Roma who go to other countries to get money, one way or another.

I just try to avoid them to stay out of trouble or become a victim of a crime, just like I avoid other people and situations I consider to be risky.

So, if the Rroma and Sinti had a nation you'd stop making assumptions? What a fantastic idea... :roll:

I get that you make assumptions based on what you observe every day, but are you seriously so placid that you never ask "why", and take into account that you may or may not be part of the problem? I belong to a minority, and the problem I usually run into isn't that people are prejudiced but that they refuse to see just how difficult "they" make it. Welcome to the wonderful world of prejudice and discrimination. My home-country, Germany, certainly didn't make it easy for a woman, never mind one of colour, to get higher education. I could write a thesis on what I had to do to get where I am, so suffice to say that everyday prejudice hurts like hell.

After fighting the whole system tooth and nail, some local authorities tried holding me up as an example for how lovely, permissive and merit-based German schooling is. Fuck that. It isn't. And fuck your assumptions. In 2005, French juveniles of Arab background bombed cars in Paris. I have a lot of sympathy for them. After a lifetime of trying to prove that I am just as worthy, just as law-abiding, just as "good"...I am angry. I am fed up. I' d be annoyed if my car burned, and I wouldn't wish it on anyone else, but check your fucking privilege. Sit back and ask "why". Look at history and see "why". And then try imagining that no matter what, no matter your beliefs, no matter your faith...

...you're never going to get work. Something you can do sweet Fuck All about. Welcome to the EU. So : Fuck you. Clementine. You understand fuck all.

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I thought they were Romanian citizens?

Um Rroma doesn't mean Romanian, it's an ethnic group. They live all over Europe, it's why Romansch is an official language of Switzerland.

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The things Clementine is saying I've observed happening here in the south. I've seen people move to the other side of the sidewalk to avoid a group of black teens when they have no issue walking past a group of white teens. They lock their car doors if they are stopped at a light and a black person is walking by. There is the underlying assumption by some here that hey, maybe not all black people are bad, but we just need to avoid them because, as a whole, they are a risky group to be around.

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Um Rroma doesn't mean Romanian, it's an ethnic group. They live all over Europe, it's why Romansch is an official language of Switzerland.

I know that Roma is not the same as Romanian, but as far as I understand it, the Roma that have been deported from France and Italy, have been deported back to their home countries. They are not French citizens, but Romanian or Bulgarian citizens. Am I wrong?

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Some of the Rroma involved are French citizens and the ones who aren't were in France legally. The situation was started when French police shot a 22yo Rroma man (a French citizen) and a group identified with Travellers but NOT actually a Rroma group attacked a village in retaliation.

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So, if the Rroma and Sinti had a nation you'd stop making assumptions? What a fantastic idea... :roll:

I get that you make assumptions based on what you observe every day, but are you seriously so placid that you never ask "why", and take into account that you may or may not be part of the problem? I belong to a minority, and the problem I usually run into isn't that people are prejudiced but that they refuse to see just how difficult "they" make it. Welcome to the wonderful world of prejudice and discrimination. My home-country, Germany, certainly didn't make it easy for a woman, never mind one of colour, to get higher education. I could write a thesis on what I had to do to get where I am, so suffice to say that everyday prejudice hurts like hell.

After fighting the whole system tooth and nail, some local authorities tried holding me up as an example for how lovely, permissive and merit-based German schooling is. Fuck that. It isn't. And fuck your assumptions. In 2005, French juveniles of Arab background bombed cars in Paris. I have a lot of sympathy for them. After a lifetime of trying to prove that I am just as worthy, just as law-abiding, just as "good"...I am angry. I am fed up. I' d be annoyed if my car burned, and I wouldn't wish it on anyone else, but check your fucking privilege. Sit back and ask "why". Look at history and see "why". And then try imagining that no matter what, no matter your beliefs, no matter your faith...

...you're never going to get work. Something you can do sweet Fuck All about. Welcome to the EU. So : Fuck you. Clementine. You understand fuck all.

Wow. Just... wow. I don't know what to say. I don't understand how anybody can defend vandalism or terrorism, no matter what. I just don't.

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It's not defending it, it's having sympathy for those involved. I do too. Racism against those of Arab and North African backgrounds in France is awful.

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Wow. Just... wow. I don't know what to say. I don't understand how anybody can defend vandalism or terrorism, no matter what. I just don't.

If that's the only thing you took away from my rant, then you're part of the problem, not the solution.

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Dang y'all. I am watching this like a ping pong match. I have lived in the american south my whole life and I know that word everybody is throwing at each other is pretty powerful. Im just saying maybe a little more talking and less labeling. Attaching labels to people based on limited contact is sterotyping too.

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Dang y'all. I am watching this like a ping pong match. I have lived in the american south my whole life and I know that word everybody is throwing at each other is pretty powerful. Im just saying maybe a little more talking and less labeling. Attaching labels to people based on limited contact is sterotyping too.

Stereotyping is not the same as racism. Calling someone out on racism is not as bad/worse than being racist. There are viewpoints expressed in this thread THAT ARE RACIST, limited contact or not.

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Stereotyping is not the same as racism. Calling someone out on racism is not as bad/worse than being racist. There are viewpoints expressed in this thread THAT ARE RACIST, limited contact or not.

QFT and repeated for emphasis: calling out racism is not worse than actually being racist. And calling someone's ideas racist when they are, in fact, racist is not "stereotyping" them, it's pointing out they're being a shitty person and should get a clue.

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Being from Spain a country were a lot of gypsies live, i have to say that i understand both of your sides. The gypsies have had difficulties adapting to society, they have a bad reputation, and sometimes that is not fair because you cant judge an entire ethnicity because some people cant adapt living in flats, having problems with their neigbours, didnt go to school and choose to be drugdealers, or other illegal things.. but there are other gypsies that are doing well, dancing flamenco, singing, working and living normal lives even maintaining their culture.

In recent years having spain a relaxed inmigration laws too there have been problems with romanian gypsies, and mafias of beggars, and other things, even the spanish gypsies dont like them. Tought they came from poverty and they maybe had not other option, even this mafias of their own people are using them, a lot of them are analphabets and cant find a legal job, some make their children to beg or steal. Generalization is not good, but is not just a matter of racism or respect the other cultures, if they are affecting the safety of your own country is obvious that there is a problem that needs to be solved and sometimes the ones that dont want to adapt (even dont wanting their children to go to school, having the option of free schooling) are the ones using the culture as a defense of their way of live.

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Stereotyping is not the same as racism. Calling someone out on racism is not as bad/worse than being racist. There are viewpoints expressed in this thread THAT ARE RACIST, limited contact or not.

No.

I would tend to some extent agree with the first sentiment. Poncing about on an internet forum picking apart how cultures view the society that they live in and what they see in THEIR own demographic is really easy. Some people love to take the internet high ground on what is labelling or racist. Actually stepping out of that intellectual poncing about and doing something to address it is completely different. Sola I think upthread is the only post where that was touched on.

For that reason I would tend to agree with Lucy Fur. Being condescending or as in some posts a total patronising arse-wipe is not going to help people break out of their range of thinking or cultural stereo-typing and perceived racist views.

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No.

I would tend to some extent agree with the first sentiment. Poncing about on an internet forum picking apart how cultures view the society that they live in and what they see in THEIR own demographic is really easy. Some people love to take the internet high ground on what is labelling or racist.

How is calling out racist ideas as racist "taking the internet high ground"? The people who've called out racism in this thread aren't doing it to feel superior, they're doing it to point out ignorance.

Actually stepping out of that intellectual poncing about and doing something to address it is completely different. Sola I think upthread is the only post where that was touched on.

Calling out racism IS doing something. I can't speak for anyone else, but I've learned a lot from the posts here taking apart the racist generalizations about the Roma. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that not all Roma are thieves and beggars, but damn if you couldn't get that impression from some of the objectionable posts in this thread (seriously, what is this, Claude Frollo's Greatest Hits?). There are different ways to combat bigotry, whether it's working with the community itself or having discussions online.

For that reason I would tend to agree with Lucy Fur. Being condescending or as in some posts a total patronising arse-wipe is not going to help people break out of their range of thinking or cultural stereo-typing and perceived racist views.

I reread the thread. There are some posts that could qualify as condescending (I say "could qualify" because I agree with them - that is, BlackHawk's posts - and I don't think calling out racism less politely makes him an arsewipe), and there are other, calmer posts breaking down why the generalizations about the Roma in this thread are racist and harmful. In any case tone policing - getting het up about the way someone says things as opposed to addressing what they're saying - is an easy out to take for someone called on their bigotry.

I do almost agree with you that being condescending is not a way to change someone else's mind, but I think of all the times I've tried to politely tell someone they were being bigoted and to cut it out, and the people who listened were ones whose minds were already open to new ways of looking at things and would've cared enough to stop even if I'd yelled at them. The ones who didn't give a shit (which was most of them) wouldn't have changed their minds no matter how I phrased things. Certain spaces online and in meatspace are more receptive to looking at things from a different perspective, but a significant proportion of people in any space either don't know or don't care that some of their thoughts and actions are bigoted, and they don't want to hear it if you point it out no matter how nicely you say it.

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How is calling out racist ideas as racist "taking the internet high ground"? The people who've called out racism in this thread aren't doing it to feel superior, they're doing it to point out ignorance.

Calling out racism IS doing something. I can't speak for anyone else, but I've learned a lot from the posts here taking apart the racist generalizations about the Roma. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that not all Roma are thieves and beggars, but damn if you couldn't get that impression from some of the objectionable posts in this thread (seriously, what is this, Claude Frollo's Greatest Hits?). There are different ways to combat bigotry, whether it's working with the community itself or having discussions online.

I reread the thread. There are some posts that could qualify as condescending (I say "could qualify" because I agree with them - that is, BlackHawk's posts - and I don't think calling out racism less politely makes him an arsewipe), and there are other, calmer posts breaking down why the generalizations about the Roma in this thread are racist and harmful. In any case tone policing - getting het up about the way someone says things as opposed to addressing what they're saying - is an easy out to take for someone called on their bigotry.

I do almost agree with you that being condescending is not a way to change someone else's mind, but I think of all the times I've tried to politely tell someone they were being bigoted and to cut it out, and the people who listened were ones whose minds were already open to new ways of looking at things and would've cared enough to stop even if I'd yelled at them. The ones who didn't give a shit (which was most of them) wouldn't have changed their minds no matter how I phrased things. Certain spaces online and in meatspace are more receptive to looking at things from a different perspective, but a significant proportion of people in any space either don't know or don't care that some of their thoughts and actions are bigoted, and they don't want to hear it if you point it out no matter how nicely you say it.[/quote]

Agreed. The point is that the other group those that are open to change may well not be if they feel patronised or on the receiving end of a condescending tone.

This thread illustrates it perfectly. Irishy is and always has been very, very clear in all her previous posts on FJ when she is discussing her own cultural/demographic perspective. Also if you look back to old threads she will also look at what others are saying and take it on board EVEN when people have deliberately used or misused her turn of phrase.

I'll put it this way. YOU are a racist. OR. Do you realise what you wrote comes across as racist.

To the first my go to is fuck you. To the second I am most likely ready to dialogue. Human nature.

As for the high ground? It is just common on FJ at times. Sure people can learn from online discussion, I most certainly have and from FJ. This though does not take away from the fact that some also just like to make grand finger pointing posts to rile an already triggering subject which really serves no purpose in my view.

I don't think it is an 'easy out' to say it. It is merely an observation based on the differences with online discussion opposed to how people interact in reality.

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