NOT my big fat Gypsy Wedding

[Clementine]

Ugh Swedes do nothing to be liked in the countries they go to. I mean, last month, my dad thought he was going to marry a beautiful swedish woman, and it turned out, she was getting ready to marry two other men, such a gold digger. I mean, last week, this blond haired, blue eyed guy who MUST be a Swede cause they are the only people like that robbed my cousin. While sitting at the drive thru this blond haired blue eyed swede tried to steal my wallet.

Okay... I could go on and on and on. But I won't. I hope you can see the stupidity in your statements. You are marginalizing a whole population of people based off a stereotype you hold. Do you go and background check every beggar on the street? Do you run a genetic comparison on anyone who looks Roma in order to determine if they are Roma or merely someone who looks like a Roma? Do you see how your negative stereotype does nothing to help these people? Or do you choose to live in your ignorance? You are what's wrong with the world, just saying.

(And for reference, I was not truly making fun of anyone. I am of Irish decent myself and am not a drunk. The whole comparison was to point out the stupidity of the statements.)

I don't think Swedish women are known as gold diggers. Swedish teens are however known to drink far too much alcohol and act like complete pigs when they go on vacations in Greece and Spain. So if you had met my fellow countrymen on Kos or Gran Canaria and had a very bad picture of us, I would completely understand why.

Stereotypes usually come from somewhere.

I think that a lot of people are "stereotyping" Roma in Europe right now, not just me.

Is it because we are all ignorant and stereotyping or could there be a reason behind it all?

Norwegian police: "Romanian Roma crimes are a megaproblem":

http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks ... YAHVcpIO20

BBC Panorama: "Secret lives of Britain's child beggars":

http://www.bbc.co.uk/panorama/hi/front_ ... 618038.stm

The Telegraph: "Romanian gipsy gang 'snatched 200 children from homes to use them as beggars'"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... ggars.html

BBC: "Gypsy child thieves"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGDj0B5WQaA

The Daily Mail: Louvre forced to close as workers walk off job in protest at Romanian gypsy children pickpocketing tourists at gallery

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... llery.html

The Telegraph: Romanian officers to help Met tackle pickpockets and beggars

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... ggars.html

There is a Roma problem in Europe and it seems to come both from their own culture and from discrimination and in order to change anything we have to start with acknowledging that there are problems with this community.

BTW, this is the latest method of stealing - same mo is used in Stockholm:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... conds.html

200 mobile phones were reported stolen with this method in Stockholm last weekend. The police caught three of the pickpockets and they were - Roma from Romania.

[itaintmebabe]

That's the problem with the American show...there is very little culture shown. It appears that for most of the families on the show, being Gypsy is merely an excuse for horrible behavior. They don't even appear to follow their own states cultural beliefs on purity: pregnancies out of wedlock etc.

Yup. I started watching the show because I thought it would give some insight into actual Roma culture. Of course, it's TLC. What the hell was I thinking!? :angry-banghead: I can't stand to watch it anymore.

[Maul the Koala]

The problem with the Roma is that the cycle is not necessarily self-perpetuating but built on stereotypes that others have. It's taken those from North America coming in some places and purposely employing Roma in order to break the cycle of poverty and begging. I've lived in Europe, I've been to many places in Europe. Most people would rather spit on the Roma than even contemplate employing them. There was a young gentleman with a business in my small town. His girlfriend was Romani. Do you want to even know the uproar that caused?

I expected better of people on this board. We've hashed this and re-hashed it over again.

[Irishy]

Yup. I started watching the show because I thought it would give some insight into actual Roma culture. Of course, it's TLC. What the hell was I thinking!? :angry-banghead: I can't stand to watch it anymore.

The gypsies like Nettie and the rest on tlc are a million miles removed from the Roma in Europe. The tlc gypsies are more similar to Irish travellers except the Irish travellers are much more strict with their girls.

[Peas n carrots]

The issues with Rroma are a vicious cycle...Rroma are discriminated by the majority, and then in turn they circle the wagons and have to find alternative means of survival because they are unable to find employment with the majority. This goes back hundreds and hundreds of years.

Both the Rroma and the majority cultures of the countries in which they reside both have to come to terms with their histories, truths and misconceptions if they want the Rroma to be more integrated in those societies.

[fundiefun]

During my stay in Italy a Roma tried to mug me from my suitcase he sat near me thinking i was gonna fall asleep but I didn't and then he exited the train. The waiting for passengers to fall asleep on the train is the easiest scam out there while traveling abroad. I also saw that they made their children walk through the trains begging it broke my heart to see this five year old girl and her sister who couldn't have been more than 8 having to walk through the cars full of passengers while their parents waited near by. I can't imagine how embarrassing that has to be to be put into that situation as a child and knowing that your family depends on your begging. I know not all are this way, but it breaks my heart to see children of any kind being used as a means to funnel their family's income when they're only children. Children shouldn't have to be put into those situations with so many crazy people out there in this world.

[BlackHawk]

You don't know anything about it. You get off your fucking high horse. Come here and see their culture of oppression against women and children. THAT is the worst thing. Women and children are sent out to beg. They are threatened with violence. "Marked" banknotes are dropped in their cups by spies to make sure they are not stealing. The women cover their hair and wear skirts only. They are married ridiculously young. Education is scant at best. Children are brought up to steal and beg. Several well known "bosses" traffick gypsies here from Romania to beg. They then own them. I am most certainly not racist. I have zero issue with these or any other people on this earth choosing to make their home next door to me. It is the culture I despise and everything dangerous and deceitful it espouses. Just like I despise everything the fundie culture espouses. Do I know for a fact that every Roma gypsy in Ireland is engaged in the worst activities mentioned above? No. No more than you know for a fact that Michelle Duggar or Steve Maxwell actually ever hit any baby with plumbing line. Are you (or I or any of us) a racist because you talk shit about fundamentalists? You have a neck like a jockey's bollocks to call me a racist. You just like a good fight.

Eta the reason that the man with the leg irritates me is because I know that injury was inflicted on him as a child. To make him a better beggar. That is outrageous.

How, Irishy, do you know what I do or do not know about Roma? Do you know everything about me? no? Then shut it.

If you were merely speaking of the things you didn't like, the aspects you didn't like about their culture that's one thing. To make a blanket statement such as

I cannot name one Roma that I know of who is employed or one employer that employs a Roma. We have a business and we have never had a sniff of a Roma applying for a job. It's far more lucrative to sit at a parking meter and harass people for change.

you are implying your racist tendencies. So because YOU do not know of one you assume they are not trying to find work. They won't work because it's easier to sit on their duff harassing people. Your words. Instead how about you unravel the layers of why businesses won't hire them, why are those trying to get a job shut down before they begin and how can we as a society help this to not happen so they CAN get out of whatever you see as their negative ways.

Your statements come off as if you are superior to ALL Roma based on what you think you know. Have you wondered past every bum sitting on a parking meter and asked him why he's there, what culture he belongs to, and what makes him do it? you haven't? wow.

Fundamentalist are not a culture. They are a movement within a culture, but not a culture. To have a comparison you'd have to say something to the effects of "All Irish people drink, they don't have jobs, and are lazy assholes". That is a true comparison, comparing cultures to cultures. I am sure the Roma have a direct type of fundamentalism as well, and that is pretty okay to hash on. But, and it's a big BUT, you have to separate their extremist views from their culture. You have not done that until this comment, thus for your previous comments came off as racist.

I don't think Swedish women are known as gold diggers. Swedish teens are however known to drink far too much alcohol and act like complete pigs when they go on vacations in Greece and Spain. So if you had met my fellow countrymen on Kos or Gran Canaria and had a very bad picture of us, I would completely understand why.

Stereotypes usually come from somewhere.

I think that a lot of people are "stereotyping" Roma in Europe right now, not just me.

Is it because we are all ignorant and stereotyping or could there be a reason behind it all?

Again, the aspects of the stereotypes I chose were not important, please don't miss the point. I honestly know very little about Swedes when it comes to stereotypes except they are all supposed to be blond haired, blue eyed, and tall. See the bigger picture, do not get lost in the details.

So because everyone else has chosen to stereotype that makes it okay? Stereotypes are typically chosen from what the society stereotyping sees as the "worst of the worst". There may be some truth, but that doesn't mean the vast majority of the people are that way. So if you want to base your entire definition of a people on the stereotypes you go for it. Doesn't make it right, however.

[Clementine]

So what is stereotyping and what is statistics? If I say that there is an obesity problem in the US... is that a stereotype or a fact?

If I say that there is a problem with Roma being overrepresented in the crime statistics in western Europe... stereotype or a fact?

[Irishy]

I know you don't bloody live in Europe. You cannot know it unless you live it. Same as I do not 'get' the hoopla about Hasidic Jews and the school system in New York. Or the gun culture in the US. Or the Jesusy-ness that permeates the south. I think "oh is it really all that bad?". But the truth is I don't fully get it because I don't live it.

There's a thread today on CPS. Our equivalent is so much less strict. Otherwise many of these children would be removed from the dangerous cruel lives they lead. When I see these babies on laps in freezing temperatures in pavements I want to whip them away.

[BlackHawk]

So what is stereotyping and what is statistics? If I say that there is an obesity problem in the US... is that a stereotype or a fact?

If I say that there is a problem with Roma being overrepresented in the crime statistics in western Europe... stereotype or a fact?

Okay let's break this down one last time.

First, let us gain definitions.

Stereotype:

a fixed notion or conception of people based on their group identity. For instance, assuming that a particular Chinese businessman is going to be greedy and dishonest because you believe that all Chinese businessmen are. Stereotyping is often at the base of prejudice and discrimination resulting from it.

(source: http://anthro.palomar.edu/tutorials/cglossary.htm#sectS)

Statistic:

a numerical fact or datum, especially one computed from a sample.

(Source: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Statistic?s=t)

So, to use your examples from above.

Saying there IS an obesity epidemic in American using the mathematical data is a statistic. Saying that ALL Americans are fat is a stereotype.

Using the mathematical data to show that the Roma are overrepresented in the crime rate, a statistic. To say that ALL Roma's are criminals is a stereotype.

Get it now?

I know you don't bloody live in Europe. You cannot know it unless you live it. Same as I do not 'get' the hoopla about Hasidic Jews and the school system in New York. Or the gun culture in the US. Or the Jesusy-ness that permeates the south. I think "oh is it really all that bad?". But the truth is I don't fully get it because I don't live it.

There's a thread today on CPS. Our equivalent is so much less strict. Otherwise many of these children would be removed from the dangerous cruel lives they lead. When I see these babies on laps in freezing temperatures in pavements I want to whip them away.

So because I don't live there I can't understand what happens there? Well, I live in America and Roma here are genuinely docile people who don't steal, cheat, or lie. So by using your logic, you cannot know anything about Roma because you don't live here! I mean, doesn't that sound crazy to you?

You do not have to live in a specific area to know about that area or what goes on there. Just because you do not choose to educate yourself on the going ons in the real world doesn't mean the rest of us live in that type of bubble.

Wanting to help the children is awesome. Wanting to remove them from their culture and thus their cultural background to assimilate them into your idea of "perfection" is not awesome. Deciding that they must be horrible because they are Roma, and for no other reason, is stereotyping and racist behavior.

[Clementine]

I have never written that ALL Roma are criminal, so why are you accusing me of stereotyping?

[fundiefun]

I fear for what could happen to these children if a crazed whacko came upon some gypsy children begging such an easy target for kidnapping rape or sexual abuse or worse. I know some sickos vacation to places like asia in poor areas for the purpose of sex with children and this seems like right up their alley and a dream come true.

[BlackHawk]

I have never written that ALL Roma are criminal, so why are you accusing me of stereotyping?

So this is probably going to be my last post to you cause you are obviously willfully allowing yourself to remain ignorant and you can't argue with stupid... so here's the last try.

I have bolded the stereotyping in your post. IF you refuse to see it, not my problem. But do allow yourself to really see what you wrote here, perhaps not what you meant, but what you wrote.

And they don't do anything to become more liked in the countries they visit.

Just last month my dad donated money to what he thought was a school for deaf and mute people - turned out to be a Roma scam, a friend of my family got robbed of her gold necklace by two Roma women who asked for the direction, I have almost been robbed twice in broad daylight by Roma, but managed to chase them off and I have had two Roma men who tried to get into my apartment. I called the police and they ran off. When I stopped at the McDonald's drive in a young Roma girl tried to reach into the car to steal my wallet. All this happened in April. One month.

They are everywhere in Sweden right now. In central Stockholm there is a Roma beggar every 50 to 100 metres and it seems that there are Roma beggars in every small town in the middle of nowhere too. This was during the cold season - I can't wait to see how this summer will be.

It is very difficult to have any sympathy for people who make my life and my elderly parent's life a lot more insecure. I felt sorry for the first wave of beggars who came here and used to give them money, but right now I just wish that we would close our borders to get rid of them.

I also wonder why they don't try to get jobs. Members of EU contries are free to work everywhere in the EU and there are lots and lots of people fro eastern Europe countries who come here to work in the building industry, do season work at farms and work as cleaners, gardeners and shoveling snow during the winter.

Why can't the Roma do the same?

So see? You marginalized the entire society based on your perception of who the Roma are. You decided that they didn't get jobs, they made you fearful, they are everywhere and doing nothing but begging. Do you see it yet? Oh, and the one I made large... yeah, really meditate on that one.

[Irishy]

Wanting to help the children is awesome. Wanting to remove them from their culture and thus their cultural background to assimilate them into your idea of "perfection" is not awesome. Deciding that they must be horrible because they are Roma, and for no other reason, is stereotyping and racist behavior.

Where did I ever say I wanted to assimilate them into my culture? Which is far from perfection. I want to remove them from harm and the shit aspects of their culture. Like weaving in and out of traffic holding your mother's hand so she can tap on car windows to beg.

[BlackHawk]

Where did I ever say I wanted to assimilate them into my culture? Which is far from perfection. I want to remove them from harm and the shit aspects of their culture. Like weaving in and out of traffic holding your mother's hand so she can tap on car windows to beg.

Dear Irishy,

The devil in the details. You can keep your racist ways. Not worth talking about anymore.

[Irishy]

I fear for what could happen to these children if a crazed whacko came upon some gypsy children begging such an easy target for kidnapping rape or sexual abuse or worse. I know some sickos vacation to places like asia in poor areas for the purpose of sex with children and this seems like right up their alley and a dream come true.

This is what can happen

http://www.asafeworldforwomen.org/women ... -fear.html

[Clementine]

Where did I ever say I wanted to assimilate them into my culture? Which is far from perfection. I want to remove them from harm and the shit aspects of their culture. Like weaving in and out of traffic holding your mother's hand so she can tap on car windows to beg.

I think that kids should be allowed to be kids and have the right to go to school, get and education and have time to play. NOT to be trafficked or dragged around Europe and forced to beg and steal. Watch the documentary from BBC that I linked to... no kids should have to live like that.

[Irishy]

Dear Irishy,

The devil in the details. You can keep your racist ways. Not worth talking about anymore.

Ok. Whatever BlackHawk. I'm so done talking to you. You dont know anything about me. How dare you call me racist. The words trip off your tongue too easily. Not only am I racist now but I'm trying to assimilate little Roma babies into my culture. Righto. You're just an aggressive twat and I'm really not interested.

[Clementine]

So this is probably going to be my last post to you cause you are obviously willfully allowing yourself to remain ignorant and you can't argue with stupid... so here's the last try.

I have bolded the stereotyping in your post. IF you refuse to see it, not my problem. But do allow yourself to really see what you wrote here, perhaps not what you meant, but what you wrote.

So see? You marginalized the entire society based on your perception of who the Roma are. You decided that they didn't get jobs, they made you fearful, they are everywhere and doing nothing but begging. Do you see it yet? Oh, and the one I made large... yeah, really meditate on that one.

This is not stereotyping, these are facts. I am writing about the experiences my friends, parents and I have had with members from this community and I also follow what the authorities report. I am sorry if this doesn't fit your personal view of Roma.

You are more than welcome to come to Sweden and take a study tour in our towns, read statistics and talk to the police, social service and authorities and then you can try to shoot down my arguments. Right now the only thing you have is that to label me "ignorant".

I do think that we should close our borders and leave the big experiment called the EU. It is not working the way our politicians promised it would be.

[yewchapel]

OK, so European speaking here. Irishy, to talk about the Rroma as an ethnic group in the way you have done so is racist. Racism doesn't always come in the form of Apartheid, often it's not thinking about the situation from another ethnic group's perspective because you are lucky because of your race and don't have to. Imagine being part of an ethnic group that has been shunned and hounded out of your communities and you know, put into death camps simply due to your ethnicity. Why would you want to participate in a society that's hurt you like that? You talk about not 'getting' the Hasidic situation discussed on other threads but actually the situations aren't hugely different - both groups have been so excluded from mainstream society that to re-integrate is very difficult, and not helped by the racist/anti-Semitic views of mainstream society. It's racist to call the Rroma beggars and thieves, just like it's racist to call Jews greedy and racist to call Irish people drunkards. The bad things you've pointed out in Rroma culture happens in other cultures too, it's not something that's an inherent trait of being of Rroma descent. Rroma kids aren't born robbing the midwife, they're born just the same as your kids.

And Clementine, you want to close your country's borders? Er good luck with that, migrants are kind of essential to European economies. I am a European too and I think the EU (which was started to prevent another war like WWII) is a great thing.

Seriously, Britain's race relations aren't perfect but at least racism and fascism are generally seen as unacceptable here. Has the rest of Europe forgotten the 1940s??

[Irishy]

If I came off as racist at all, I am very sorry. I constantly point out to people how they're racist when they complain that their Nigerian taxi driver got lost or their child's polish friend has crappy English. I don't want to be on that slippery slope.

I honestly don't think of death camps when I look at a Roma person any more than I think of famine when I look at an Irish person or war when I look at my Lebanese friend.

[yewchapel]

If I came off as racist at all, I am very sorry. I constantly point out to people how they're racist when they complain that their Nigerian taxi driver got lost or their child's polish friend has crappy English. I don't want to be on that slippery slope.

I honestly don't think of death camps when I look at a Roma person any more than I think of famine when I look at an Irish person or war when I look at my Lebanese friend.

Maybe you should? Not being facetious here, but death camps existed for the Rroma within the last century. As a group, they have long memories - and while not being put in death camps, they're getting hounded out of France and Italy RIGHT NOW.

[samurai_sarah]

Maybe you should? Not being facetious here, but death camps existed for the Rroma within the last century. As a group, they have long memories - and while not being put in death camps, they're getting hounded out of France and Italy RIGHT NOW.

And that is outright perverse. A lot of Sinti and Rroma have EU passports, and therefore the right to settle anywhere within the EU. France or Italy wouldn't hound another group of EU citizens out on the basis of their ethnicity, but breaking the laws to get rid of "gypsies" is apparently fine. :pull-hair:

[Clementine]

Citizens from a EU country can settle anywhere in the EU on the following conditions:

Right to move and right of residence for up to three months

All Union citizens have the right to enter another Member State by virtue of having an identity card or valid passport. Under no circumstances can an entry or exit visa be required. Where the citizens concerned do not have travel documents, the host Member State must afford them every reasonable means in obtaining the requisite documents or having them sent.

Family members who do not have the nationality of a Member State enjoy the same rights as the citizen who they have accompanied. They may be subject to a short-stay visa requirement under Regulation (EC) No 539/2001. Residence permits will be deemed equivalent to short-stay visas.

For stays of less than three months, the only requirement on Union citizens is that they possess a valid identity document or passport. The host Member State may require the persons concerned to register their presence in the country within a reasonable and non-discriminatory period of time.

Right of residence for more than three months

The right of residence for more than three months remains subject to certain conditions. Applicants must:

either be engaged in economic activity (on an employed or self-employed basis);

or have sufficient resources and sickness insurance to ensure that they do not become a burden on the social services of the host Member State during their stay. The Member States may not specify a minimum amount which they deem sufficient, but they must take account of personal circumstances;

or be following vocational training as a student and have sufficient resources and sickness insurance to ensure that they do not become a burden on the social services of the host Member State during their stay;

or be a family member of a Union citizen who falls into one of the above categories.

http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/ ... migration/

EU citizens also have to have a place to live that is legal. It's not legal to build camps or settlements without a police permit or place a tent or a caravan somewhere for more than one night without a permit from the landowner. From what I understand, the reason that some Roma have been deported from France and Italy because they have been residing there illegally, ie in illegal camps and settlements and don't have a legal reason to stay for more than three months, like working or studying.

[yewchapel]

No, the Rroma have been deported from France and Italy because they are Rroma and have been forced into illegal camps, not the other way around.