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Mormons, Husbands and Submission


higgledypiggledy

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Can you elaborate?

1978 to let black people into their churches! not even become priesthood or anything, just to attend! and they STILL haven't apologized or rescinded their official statement from 1949 that black people were inferior and unable to hold priesthood.

(I just realized my original sentence was unclear...they backpedaled *sort of* from being unabashedly racist and were unabashedly racist until the very recent past.)

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But the Mormon leaders are the absolute earthly authority on everything. That's why it took them so long to catch up on black people being people. And being allowed to have full citizenship. And being allowed to have romantic relationships with white people. They weren't caving in to huge pressure on how bigoted they were, they were coming to realise that now black people were magically somehow different, which has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that everyone else figured it out first.

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I don't think it's fair to blame the LDS church for anyone's personality flaws.

Depends on how you say it. I think it's a lot easier to cheer rape if you live in Egypt. I'm not going to stand around going "oh, some Egyptian men are totally clued in to rape culture" in order to defend EGYPT ITSELF, so it's really a question of whether your generalisations are a- justified and b- actually have something to do with the culture. There is a culture in the Mormon church, and in individual churches of it (though it is very organised and centralised).

She is no different than a racist who makes assumptions based on skin color.

Kathryn31, that route.

Disclaimers: I know one Mormon, and she's pretty nice, and I think family home evenings are a pretty great idea, but I think the heads of the Mormon church are pretty despicable, and I think a lot of Mormon-raised Mormons have no idea how bad it really is, because the culture they've been raised in makes it difficult for them to realise such things.

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I've got nothing to add to this thread except this:

217302_1570198989859_1682014812_1030717_5983031_n.jpg

This is me with Joseph Smith. I'm a little obsessed with Mormonism (reading the Book of Mormon now) and the hill where he supposedly found his golden plates is only about 30 minutes from me.

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Also, I'm totally jazzed that that was my first post since the move. Almost as jazzed as I look in that picture.

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I've heard he was considered something of a hottie in his day, but that statue? Seriously? Kinda Ken-like proportions going on there, no?

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Well, to be fair Kathryn, the way you and handcuff sometimes tag team on other posters does lead to you two being tied together in people's minds. Personally, if my husband was dumb enough to come up with "Calling me a bigot for opposing gay marriage is the same as calling me a bigot for opposing toaster marriage, and that's totes not a slippery slope fallacy!" he'd be on his own. Ditto on "taxes are theft" when what he means is "taxes for stuff I don't approve of is theft but I would steal money from real anarchists for stuff I want".

It really, really raises my hackles when someone accuses a victim of religious patriarchy of being angry and unreasonable. Wokchop's experience of Mormonism is as valid as yours. Citing statistics and whatnot does not make her experience less real, though it might put it in perspective.

I just wrote out a huge response and it was eaten. GRRR..

I honestly don'e feel that I tag team with my husband. Our views can be very different. I voted for Obama and he thought I was crazy. I will NOT, NOT, NOT support Prop 8 and have many dear friends who are gay. Who am I to say if they should or should not get married? When the divorce rate is 50% what are straight people afraid of?

I would never argue that WokChop's experience is not valid...ever. She was a victim in every sense of the word. There was a bishop in my area who abused several kids and there is NO excuse and no matter the religion these people deserve the harshest punishment by law. I grew up in an awful, gossipy, mean ward (congregation) and frankly I would rather not attend church than ever go there again even today.

The reason I prefer to not communicate with WokChop is that she is angry at the Mormon Church, rightly so, but she viciously takes it out on any member who is here and contradicts the smallest thing. I would never say the Mormon Church is perfect and my bishop recently informed me I was considered "controvertial" because of some of my views and comments in church. I hate blanket statements and will not allow them to make one and be part of the head-bobbing agreement crowd. For example: Someone stated "We should always support our local leaders". I pointed out that we have free agency and do not have support our local or non-local leaders because sometimes there is information know by a few that others are not made aware. Example of that: Someone would not support a local leader because they knew he had been abusive to someone in his family. The leader was later excommunicated.

We were given brains to think and discern for ourselves. I would never try to gloss over abuse suffered by anyone. There is simply no excuse that makes it acceptable in any situation. I don't blindly follow anyone and that may make me unpopular at church (perhaps that is why my best friend is Catholic) but I don't care. I am not a sheep.

There is no way I would ever, ever, ever support someone who abused a child, ever.

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Cate I love the pic...hilarious! I assume that is at Hill Cumorah? Never been there but I hear the pageants are huge.

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Yep! The pageant is next month and I'm really hoping to go. I've heard it's pretty theatrically spectacular, plot/religion aside.

Here's Moroni at the top of the hill:

216260_1570247111062_1682014812_1030803_5470584_n.jpg

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I am so glad I am not the only person who is obsessed with Mormonism. I feel bad for the missionaries who knock on my door because I have tons of questions and no desire to convert.

Especially about their underwear.

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I am so glad I am not the only person who is obsessed with Mormonism. I feel bad for the missionaries who knock on my door because I have tons of questions and no desire to convert.

Especially about their underwear.

Gee. I found a stray pair of garment bottoms in a box yesterday when I was rooting through looking for a pair of shorts I was SURE I'd put in there. I thought I'd tossed all my garmies when I bailed on the church. Guess not.

So ask away.

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I am very quick to tell anyone that I can that I have actually SEEN the secret Mormon underwear, if I can think of any reason whatsoever to bring it into a conversation.

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I am very quick to tell anyone that I can that I have actually SEEN the secret Mormon underwear, if I can think of any reason whatsoever to bring it into a conversation.

Oh, it's easy! 'Hi, I'm Allison. I'VE SEEN THE SECRET MORMON UNDERWEAR.'

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Well, to be fair Kathryn, the way you and handcuff sometimes tag team on other posters does lead to you two being tied together in people's minds. Personally, if my husband was dumb enough to come up with "Calling me a bigot for opposing gay marriage is the same as calling me a bigot for opposing toaster marriage, and that's totes not a slippery slope fallacy!" he'd be on his own. Ditto on "taxes are theft" when what he means is "taxes for stuff I don't approve of is theft but I would steal money from real anarchists for stuff I want".

It really, really raises my hackles when someone accuses a victim of religious patriarchy of being angry and unreasonable. Wokchop's experience of Mormonism is as valid as yours. Citing statistics and whatnot does not make her experience less real, though it might put it in perspective.

I always forget that Kathryn is married to handcuff. If you didn't want to be linked to your husbands offensive beliefs you shouldn't supported him in that thread. If that had been my husband I would have said "I love him, but he is a total dumb-ass when it comes these things and Free Jinger is totally correct in tearing him to shreds about it. Have at it, maybe you can knock some sense into him."

The Mormons I know are all nice and they never try to convert me. I like them better than my IFB friends who think I'm going to hell for not using a KJV Bible and attending an non-denominational church. The Mormons might think I'm going to hell, but at least they keep it to themselves.

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The Mormons I know are all nice and they never try to convert me. I like them better than my IFB friends who think I'm going to hell for not using a KJV Bible and attending an non-denominational church. The Mormons might think I'm going to hell, but at least they keep it to themselves.

Mormons don't believe in hell. It's three degrees of glory/kingdoms (Celestial, Terrestrial and Telestial) and Outer Darkness. You have to be truly wicked to end up in Outer Darkness. The rest of us, we'll get assigned to one of the kingdoms.

Plus, Mormons believe that if you didn't hear in this life, you'll get a chance to hear and accept/reject in the next.

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Personally if I could ignore the holy texts and doctrine I would be Mormon in a heartbeat.

But I still think the average one is fundie lite.

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Mormons don't believe in hell. It's three degrees of glory/kingdoms (Celestial, Terrestrial and Telestial) and Outer Darkness. You have to be truly wicked to end up in Outer Darkness. The rest of us, we'll get assigned to one of the kingdoms.

Plus, Mormons believe that if you didn't hear in this life, you'll get a chance to hear and accept/reject in the next.

I know, right!?! There's a ton I don't like about the Mormon faith, trust me, but when my ex-Mormon cousin told me this, I thought it was really cool. (I love that my cousin broke away from her family's faith though -- she's waaaay cooler as an Ex-Mormon). Although, it's kinda weird that my cousin's children's children will probably be baptizing me by proxy so I can choose to ascend to a higher heaven.

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OK, I went and re-read the thread where Kathryn and handcuff both unload on WokChop:

http://freejinger.yuku.com/reply/31675/ ... eply-31675

Wokchop makes an assertion about Mormons but includes a disclaimer that she is an angry recovering mormon.

K31 immediately takes her assertion as a personal insult and shows very little curiosity about why WokChop is angry at Mormonism. Then handcuff weighs in with an extremely long post with several paragraphs about how Mormonism is not more homophobic than traditional christianity (how reassuring!) All in all, a lot of defensiveness and not a lot of interest in WokChop's experience. Why?

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Pretty much what others are saying, re: K31 and handcuff. I personally think of them as linked, and I've witnessed the tag teaming. I haven't often interacted with either of them, in part because I have no interest in getting involved in a protracted feud, which I think would be likely, but I know what I've read, and after K31's posts on this thread, I think I'm going to go ahead and put the both of them on ignore. I've found her to be extremely defensive of Mormonism, to the point that it seems like any time anyone mentions it in a way that could be perceived as critical, she's right there lecturing and slinging insults at people. And really, I don't think calling someone a "dick" or an "asshole" is a great way to show how much bigger a person you are than whoever's gotten you upset. But maybe that's just me.

Personally, I know a number of Mormons and have generally found them all to be very nice people (none of whom have tried to convert me, but I think they know there's just way too much of a gap there), but I would never in a million years join the church. Independent of my issues with Jesus, the whole Prop 8 thing, coupled with the history of pretty horrible discrimination against blacks and the excommunications of ERA supporters that took place tell me that whatever benefits it may offer, the LDS church ain't for me. I've read the Book of Mormon, incidentally, and while I tried to give it a fair shot, I felt like Mark Twain was probably justified in referring to it as "chloroform in print." But then, there are large chunks of the Bible that aren't what most would call scintillating.

I will say that I think part of the reason it's easier to pick at Mormonism is because it's a relatively new religion, so all of the flaws of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young et al are easily documented and verifiable, along with the flaws of the church itself. That's one of the things that makes it interesting to me, along with the fact that it's a uniquely American religion, but the whole Temple thing, the fact that non-Mormon family members are barred from attending the weddings of their Mormon family if said weddings occur in the Temple (this happened to the parents of a friend of mine who converted to Mormonism)... thanks, but no thanks.

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OK, I went and re-read the thread where Kathryn and handcuff both unload on WokChop:

http://freejinger.yuku.com/reply/31675/ ... eply-31675

Wokchop makes an assertion about Mormons but includes a disclaimer that she is an angry recovering mormon.

K31 immediately takes her assertion as a personal insult and shows very little curiosity about why WokChop is angry at Mormonism. Then handcuff weighs in with an extremely long post with several paragraphs about how Mormonism is not more homophobic than traditional christianity (how reassuring!) All in all, a lot of defensiveness and not a lot of interest in WokChop's experience. Why?

I don't deny either experience. Do I know Mormons like WokChop described? No. But I also don't know a great percentage either. But at the same time there are lots of Mormons like K31 describes.

I think their doctrine is whack and I understand how that doctrine is damaging but I think both of them are being very fierce on what

"real Mormons" are like.

Also, I read WokChops intial post as not really wanting to discuss their experience...so I can't fault others for not digging. I was likely wrong in that implication...but alas, that is the problem with having a different brain than the one of the person you are reading.

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Yeah, well, I guess I think of FJ as a place where recovering ex-anythings aren't dismissed as angry haters right off the bat. That's the kind of thing that goes on at Steadfast Daughters.

I'm happy to take people as individuals. If you say you're a Mormon who supports same-sex marriage, I'm not going to argue with you about what your church teaches and you can't really be a Mormon and believe that, blah blah blah. At the same time if you're a gay teen who left the church because you became suicidally depressed, I'm not going to insist that you have to qualify your every statement to avoid offending people.

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Yeah, well, I guess I think of FJ as a place where recovering ex-anythings aren't dismissed as angry haters right off the bat. That's the kind of thing that goes on at Steadfast Daughters.

I'm happy to take people as individuals. If you say you're a Mormon who supports same-sex marriage, I'm not going to argue with you about what your church teaches and you can't really be a Mormon and believe that, blah blah blah. At the same time if you're a gay teen who left the church because you became suicidally depressed, I'm not going to insist that you have to qualify your every statement to avoid offending people.

Hey, I didn't call her a hater. I was commenting on that particular exchange.

Personally I think Kathryn31 went a little overboard on this thread...but whatever. I always laugh when people say X denomination isn't fundie!

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I have read several threads where someone mentions they think homosexuality is wrong and they are absolutely DESTROYED by posters but several people have a go at me because I am Mormon and if I defend myself in any way whether strongly or minor "whatever" I am in the wrong? Perhaps it is due to the fact I am being being judged for a religion?

I have never come here with a Mormon agenda and do not try to convince people they are wrong in their beliefs that Mormons are incorrect. Again, everyone is entitled to an opinion. When was the last time my husband was even on FJ and I am not going to tear him apart to people I do not know. He is an excellent father and husband so why would I trash him?

It is interesting the the tide turned when I mentioned on this thread who I was married to.

WokChop did not want to discuss what had happened. I have no doubt that she has every right to her anger but I don't know her and feel that her post was vicious, mean and wrong.

I am here for the same reason as anyone else (except Mark Dreher). The train wreck is too tempting and hard to stop watching.

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Hey, I didn't call her a hater. I was commenting on that particular exchange.

Personally I think Kathryn31 went a little overboard on this thread...but whatever. I always laugh when people say X denomination isn't fundie!

No, I didn't mean to accuse you of calling her a hater and sorry if it came off that way. I'm just trying to explain why I felt the need to stick my oar in.

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