Mormons, Husbands and Submission

[Kathryn31]

Oh, you're handcuff's wife. That explains a lot.

No that doesn't explain anything except the fact that you just proved my point by again making a generalized statement about someone you don't know.

Seriously, why do you and your husband come on this forum? I can't imagine why anything we discuss here would be of interest to you - except maybe to defend your way of life.

[dcmhejbl62]

Question here:

I have the impression that there aren't so many freelance "ministries" aka money-making enterprises promoting marriage and lifestyle advice within the Mormon church. So while there are regional variations there aren't groups like Vision Forum exploiting different market niches within the church and pushing them in a more radical direction. Is that a fair assessment?

I don't know about money-making enterprises, but if you search the internet there are quite a few freelance groups (ministries? I don't know about that) promoting a particular viewpoint or niche in the church. I still wouldn't compare them to VF though.

Almost all the educational materials, ie, Sunday School lessons, family night materials, are centralized and published through the church, so everyone is pretty much doing the same lesson or program on a given day anywhere in the world. I don't think wards go off the books and find their own curriculum or materials, ie, FoF or VF.

The members here can provide more information than I can...

[emesbe]

"Us Mormons" probably come here for the same reason a lot of other people do----because it's like a train wreck----I can't look away, from ZsuZsu, Lyndsie, the Maxwells.

And "toe the party line"-- honey, ain't nobody in my church caring that I'm here. Or checking up on me, for that matter.

[Kelya]

How does that line up with marriage? When a boy gets back from a mission, a girl is about to leave. Seems impractical to me.

If men return after two years and marry, most of their female peers won't be on missions yet. or if women date slightly older men, the dates would match up fine. the aforementioned molly mormon friend got married at twenty to a twenty two year old who had returned from his mission and was in college. she won't go on a mission and is looking forward to building her family, which she views as a more important task than doing a mission.

i don't know if that's the legit reasoning, just something i've always found suspicious. I suspect the real reason is something about women needing more time to mature in their faith or some other bullshit like that.

[deelaem]

No that doesn't explain anything except the fact that you just proved my point by again making a generalized statement about someone you don't know.

Gosh, you sure told me, didn't you? Just like the last time someone called your husband on his bullshit. I'm totally wounded, especially seeing as how I have so much respect for you and your husband. And now I've totally changed my mind, I'm planning to convert to Mormonism as soon as possible. I want to be as cool as you are. :lol:

Oh, and by the way? I don't have a dick because I'm a woman. But you did make me giggle with that one - what a brave Mormon lady you are, saying such a dirty word!

[Kathryn31]

"Us Mormons" probably come here for the same reason a lot of other people do----because it's like a train wreck----I can't look away, from ZsuZsu, Lyndsie, the Maxwells.

And "toe the party line"-- honey, ain't nobody in my church caring that I'm here. Or checking up on me, for that matter.

That. We like a peek into the windows of crazyville just like anyone else.

[mirele]

Question here:

I have the impression that there aren't so many freelance "ministries" aka money-making enterprises promoting marriage and lifestyle advice within the Mormon church. So while there are regional variations there aren't groups like Vision Forum exploiting different market niches within the church and pushing them in a more radical direction. Is that a fair assessment?

Outside ministries are virtually nonexistent. HOWEVER, Multi-Level Marketing FLOURISHES in Utah. (Less so in the hinterlands.) Make of it what you will.

[deelaem]

In theory Mormonism is very patriarchal. For instance, in the afterlife, a wife goes to heaven when (and if, lol) her husband calls her by her secret name; couples must be polygamous to continue progressing; motherhood is extolled as the end-all be-all for women; women can't hold the priesthood or hold church leadership positions (bishop, stake counselor, etc.). And you'll always find twits who extend that patriarchy to marriage and family in a big way, similar to the fundie families we watch.

However, even in the most entrenched LDS family, education is highly valued for men and women, as is critical thinking (as long as it isn't applied to their own religion), so you don't find many of the mind-numbing zombie SAHDs and wives, for instance. They don't consider a women turning off her brain and blindly obeying her husband as being pleasing to God; there is an expectation for both partners to work in whatever area to make the marriage succeed. There is also such a focus on achievement, being the best one can be, that working moms are not as looked down upon, especially if they can combine it effectively with motherhood.

Mormons who are more "liberal" or not the "Utah-Mormon" brand have an even more egalitarian approach to marriage and life.

Have I mentioned how much I love Mormons? ; )

You love Mormons, yet if you were a woman in that religion, the only way to get to Celestial Kingdom (whatever) is if you have husband to "call you up"? You love the fact that they won't let women hold an descion-making leadership positions? The only thing that makes them different from fundies is that they encourage education and they're much better at marketing themselves. But make no mistake, they have the same agenda as fundies do, they want to take over leadership of this country. My Mormon nephew works for the NSC, and the majority of the people who work with him are Mormons. I find that to be pretty scary.

[mirele]

"Us Mormons" probably come here for the same reason a lot of other people do----because it's like a train wreck----I can't look away, from ZsuZsu, Lyndsie, the Maxwells.

And "toe the party line"-- honey, ain't nobody in my church caring that I'm here. Or checking up on me, for that matter.

I have to agree...fundie whack makes what passes for Mormon whack pale by comparison.

And no, the church doesn't make a point of checking up on people, not even if they're curious enough (as I was !!) to wander off and see what the various polygamist groups (not the FLDS, the more modern polygs) were up to. It becomes a problem when you start preaching your new-found doctrine (whether it be born-again Christianity or Polygamy Like Joseph Smith) to your fellow Mormons. THAT will get you the left foot of fellowship in short order.

[Kelya]

I don't know about money-making enterprises, but if you search the internet there are quite a few freelance groups (ministries? I don't know about that) promoting a particular viewpoint or niche in the church. I still wouldn't compare them to VF though.

Almost all the educational materials, ie, Sunday School lessons, family night materials, are centralized and published through the church, so everyone is pretty much doing the same lesson or program on a given day anywhere in the world. I don't think wards go off the books and find their own curriculum or materials, ie, FoF or VF.

The members here can provide more information than I can...

I get the same impression, and i wonder if its because they tithe so heavily? like they put a lot of money into maintaining the organizations that create those materials so spending more money on niche materials might be impractical, and with tithing 10% of your income you dry out a lot of extra money quickly so you have less to invest in your own side projects, etc.

[Jessica]

Dude, can't a Mormon post something on a website without it being some sort of secret conversion tactic?!

[Kathryn31]

Gosh, you sure told me, didn't you? Just like the last time someone called your husband on his bullshit. I'm totally wounded, especially seeing as how I have so much respect for you and your husband. And now I've totally changed my mind, I'm planning to convert to Mormonism as soon as possible. I want to be as cool as you are.

Oh, and by the way? I don't have a dick because I'm a woman. But you did make me giggle with that one - what a brave Mormon lady you are, saying such a dirty word!

You prove that that a woman can be a dick (see quote). I am also aware that you are of the female gender. You also prove that you have the maturity level of a toddler.

I want to be as cool as you are.

Are we in grade school? Do you forget to read your post before you hit enter? The kindergarten baiting while standing at the end of the playground is REALLY cool. Try that in real life and let me know how it goes for you. Again you show your blanket assumptions (read: ignorance).

Bless your heart...

[deelaem]

Dude, can't a Mormon post something on a website without it being some sort of secret conversion tactic?!

Who said anything about a secret conversion tactic? I was being sarcastic, cuz I really don't know what the point of Kathryn's post was. She can post all she wants, as can I, and we don't have to agree.

She and her husband are now on my foe list, because I've heard their drivel too many times before.

[Kathryn31]

Well she beat me to it as she was about to hit my foe list.

Dude, can't a Mormon post something on a website without it being some sort of secret conversion tactic?!

Some people are just haters. She is no different than a racist who makes assumptions based on skin color. The funny thing is that I have no "drivel" to speak of. While my dh loves to get into political and religious debates I avoid them whenever I can. This person has obviously tied into it with my husband and now instead of me I am part of "them".

Whatever. Bless her heart.

[Patsy]

Seriously, Kathryn31? You want to go the route that has us snarking on ApoliticalSister in another thread?

[Kathryn31]

Uh...what? What route would that be?

[WokChop]

Ahhhh, deelaem I see you are the latest target of the of the rabid Kathryn31, who begins foaming at the mouth the moment someone voices a dissenting opinion of her kooky cult. Kathryn came out swinging at me a while back because I shared my personal experiences as a former Mormon. That's when she had her husband register here to put me in my place. ::sigh:: If only his priesthoood authority had any meaning to me...

As per usual, she's bellering about those "Utah Mormons" like they're the only ones who are fucked up. Well, as a Mormon living in the "far mission field", I encountered just as many whackadoodle Mormons in my area.

Just because the Mormon church is trying to Swiffer away much of its crazy doctrines/history and appear mainstream, doesn't mean the religion, at its core isn't just as much a "crazyville" as the religions Kathryn makes fun of here at Free Jinger.

[Kathryn31]

After this post I will put you on ignore because you are the most angry person I have ever come across and you aim it at anyone who is LDS due to your experience. I am sure your past haunts you but we have never met and I am undeserving of the above post. Every religion has persons who abuse their authority and there are no exceptions. My family does not attend any church after some very traumatic things that occurred in our congregation. After seven years I returned but to a different location.

You are certainly welcome to your opinion as I am allowed mine.

[dcmhejbl62]

You love Mormons, yet if you were a woman in that religion, the only way to get to Celestial Kingdom (whatever) is if you have husband to "call you up"? You love the fact that they won't let women hold an descion-making leadership positions? The only thing that makes them different from fundies is that they encourage education and they're much better at marketing themselves. But make no mistake, they have the same agenda as fundies do, they want to take over leadership of this country. My Mormon nephew works for the NSC, and the majority of the people who work with him are Mormons. I find that to be pretty scary.

It's still not the same as the fundies; there's a strong belief in free agency, free choice, in the Mormon church, and also a fear of too much legislation favoring religion, as their religion tends to be in the minority. I would be much more comfortable with the status of my civil rights if a Mormon were in office than a Duggar or some variant thereof.

Yeah, I'm not fond of those particular aspects either. (Which is why despite my near-lifelong obsession, I've never had the slightest inclination to join) But many of the non-Utahns, as well as ex-Mormons, have a worldview and Christ-like attitude that I appreciate. I've had some of my best conversations with Mormon feminists -- especially males.

[DistantStar]

OUtside of Utah, maybe, dcmhejbl62, but in Utah and parts of Idaho the LDS church is largely in charge from what I understand. I am gently condescended to on a daily basis by Utah Mormon men -- seriously, the vast majority might be good men, but somewhere along the line they learned to talk down to women just a bit. It's not really noticeable until you've talked to a bunch. We get a lot of Utahns up here for vacations and conferences and things and I work in reservations for a resort, so I'm not joking about it being daily. It took some getting used to!

I have a lot of admiration for the sheer strength and grit it took to make the move to Utah regardless of why, having driven most of the route. The thought of doing it in a wagon, or worse, dragging a handcart...wow. But the mainstream church, at least in very Mormon-heavy areas, isn't nearly as much like, say, your friendly neighborhood Episcopalians as they tend to advertise. There are some major heavy theological differences that run pretty deep.

[Witsec1]

Well she beat me to it as she was about to hit my foe list.

Some people are just haters. She is no different than a racist who makes assumptions based on skin color. The funny thing is that I have no "drivel" to speak of. While my dh loves to get into political and religious debates I avoid them whenever I can. This person has obviously tied into it with my husband and now instead of me I am part of "them".

Whatever. Bless her heart.

Well, to be fair Kathryn, the way you and handcuff sometimes tag team on other posters does lead to you two being tied together in people's minds. Personally, if my husband was dumb enough to come up with "Calling me a bigot for opposing gay marriage is the same as calling me a bigot for opposing toaster marriage, and that's totes not a slippery slope fallacy!" he'd be on his own. Ditto on "taxes are theft" when what he means is "taxes for stuff I don't approve of is theft but I would steal money from real anarchists for stuff I want".

It really, really raises my hackles when someone accuses a victim of religious patriarchy of being angry and unreasonable. Wokchop's experience of Mormonism is as valid as yours. Citing statistics and whatnot does not make her experience less real, though it might put it in perspective.

[O Latin]

I had a whole post typed out, but then my internet had a hissy fit. Basically I said that I know lots of Mormons (I live in Idaho), some who are patriarchal jerks and some who aren't, just like with any group of people, and I don't think it's fair to blame the LDS church for anyone's personality flaws.

[Kelya]

It's still not the same as the fundies; there's a strong belief in free agency, free choice, in the Mormon church, and also a fear of too much legislation favoring religion, as their religion tends to be in the minority. I would be much more comfortable with the status of my civil rights if a Mormon were in office than a Duggar or some variant thereof.

many of the non-Utahns, as well as ex-Mormons, have a worldview and Christ-like attitude that I appreciate. I've had some of my best conversations with Mormon feminists -- especially males.

I can sort of understand that viewpoint, but can't really get behind it because mormons have recently shown that they don't give a fuck about gay civil rights. And with their very recent backpedaling on people of color in their church, I don't think anyone should be trusting them with upholding any form of civil rights...they've proven they'll throw money and manpower at upholding civil rights if they feel its unbiblical. their status as a minority religion i question too...I think that term is better used for actual religious groups without any ties (however tenuous) to christianity, like buddhists and jews.

[Kelya]

Well, to be fair Kathryn, the way you and handcuff sometimes tag team on other posters does lead to you two being tied together in people's minds. Personally, if my husband was dumb enough to come up with "Calling me a bigot for opposing gay marriage is the same as calling me a bigot for opposing toaster marriage, and that's totes not a slippery slope fallacy!" he'd be on his own. Ditto on "taxes are theft" when what he means is "taxes for stuff I don't approve of is theft but I would steal money from real anarchists for stuff I want".

It really, really raises my hackles when someone accuses a victim of religious patriarchy of being angry and unreasonable. Wokchop's experience of Mormonism is as valid as yours. Citing statistics and whatnot does not make her experience less real, though it might put it in perspective.

Don't forget, her main contribution to one of handcuff's arguments was to post about how awesome he was and all the good things he's done in his life. Yeah, instantly linked. The duggars can say they ain't quiverfull but we all know they are, you can say you're separate posters but after that brilliant argument (its okay my husband's a bigot, he's a great community leader!)...yeah, no.

[Witsec1]

Can you elaborate?