Dr. Kermit Gosnell's Trial

[crazyforkate]

My mom is generally pro-choice but more restrictively than I am. We always tend to bicker over some of the more gray areas (late term, etc). This morning she triumphantly held up the newspaper and said "WELL, I don't agree with THIS." To which I said "Do you really think anyone does?" Seriously, this is not what pro-choice stands for.

[treemom]

Maybe because the language is more straight to the point in the last few pages. As I said though that was just my interpretation. Which goes to show that this medium is difficult to interpret nuance. We sanitise our language and it's use as in my example.

Deliberate implies the intent to misunderstand. Which I just didn't get.

[OkToBeTakei]

Deliberate implies the intent to misunderstand. Which I just didn't get.

I just felt if I could understand that others were choosing not to. Rather than take the time to look at language/cultural differences. Seems a theme in some of the other threads oil has posted in.

[treemom]

I just felt if I could understand that others were choosing not to. Rather than take the time to look at language/cultural differences. Seems a theme in some of the other threads oil has posted in.

So because you understood something anyone else misunderstanding has to be intentional?

[Bethella]

He's gotten life without parole. They took the death penalty off the table in return for him giving up his right to appeal the conviction.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/14/justice/pennsylvania-abortion-doctor-trial/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

[OkToBeTakei]

So because you understood something anyone else misunderstanding has to be intentional?

You seem very fixated on this use of one word and my impression and or interpretation or lack of. Rather than the actual issues mentioned. If it makes you feel better change 'deliberate' to whatever makes it easy for you. My impression is what it is.

As for the issue being spoken of more importantly (before the derail) I can only QFT Sola's comment times a thousand.

[treemom]

You seem very fixated on this use of one word and my impression and or interpretation or lack of. Rather than the actual issues mentioned. If it makes you feel better change 'deliberate' to whatever makes it easy for you. My impression is what it is.

As for the issue being spoken of more importantly (before the derail) I can only QFT Sola's comment times a thousand.

Don't share your impression if you don't want it commented on.

[OkToBeTakei]

Don't share your impression if you don't want it commented on.

Hehehe. My impression of that is 'Shut up.'

Hey... I don't mind comments if I see the point of them, especially after repeated explanation.

[treemom]

Hehehe. My impression of that is 'Shut up.'

Hey... I don't mind comments if I see the point of them, especially after repeated explanation.

Actually one explanation, the first time you misunderstood me and explained that the nurse was saying it deliberately.

My interpretations of this " If it makes you feel better change 'deliberate' to whatever makes it easy for you. My impression is what it is. " was shut up...so I guess we both perceive things different but I wouldn't assume someone is making an intentional, deliberate effort to misunderstand someone just because "I just felt if I could understand that"

I don't understand your word chose, it seems combative and like telling people to STFU and stop being difficult. So I asked you about it and you told me to substitute any word I want. Because, well to be honest I don't know why I would just willy nilly change the meaning of your statements.

Also, I am allowed to both dislike the language you chose when you told someone to STFU and discuss issues at hand. In fact I have done both until you declared people deliberately misunderstanding people.

[OkToBeTakei]

Actually one explanation, the first time you misunderstood me and explained that the nurse was saying it deliberately.

My interpretations of this " If it makes you feel better change 'deliberate' to whatever makes it easy for you. My impression is what it is. " was shut up...so I guess we both perceive things different but I wouldn't assume someone is making an intentional, deliberate effort to misunderstand someone just because "I just felt if I could understand that"

I don't understand your word chose, it seems combative and like telling people to STFU and stop being difficult. So I asked you about it and you told me to substitute any word I want. Because, well to be honest I don't know why I would just willy nilly change the meaning of your statements.

Also, I am allowed to both dislike the language you chose when you told someone to STFU and discuss issues at hand. In fact I have done both until you declared people deliberately misunderstanding people.

I certainly do not recall telling anybody to 'shut up' never mind the acronym you are using which is a particular hatred of mine. In the first example I explained the nurse was not a native English speaker and whilst she said it deliberately her intention was not to offend as I felt was also oil's intention, which by her response to the nuances of the english language she appeared to get. I don't understand at all why you did not get this example. Hey ho.

oil is a recent member here and I merely pointed out than in other threads she had been deliberately misunderstood purely because her opinion and use of language was different. I was hoping this was not the case in this thread as despite not counting myself particularly intuitive I realised she was very much on the same page, as formergothardite pointed out when she realised.

You can dislike anything I write at all.

Quite frankly my last response and the one before were probably sarcastic and based on my amusement at the disproportionate amount of type space you gave my comment. Sure, I'll answer. Combative? No idea. Perception as you said on another thread is not something you can dictate.

[treemom]

I didn't tell you to shut up either, but that was what you interpreted.

[Alice_Fraggle]

Ok I will be VERY care full about what the fuck I say! LOL "She will be dying soon" is wrong to say??

It's not bad at all. It's just a lot more blunt than some of us are used to. I would have said "She's not doing well", but that's not as to the point as "She will be dying soon." As someone said before it's the difference between American English, and English spoken elsewhere. Neither is wrong, it's just not as "sugar coated" as some of us would be.

American English isn't your first language, so don't worry about how you say things. I love that there are people from all over the world here, and we all need to be understanding in the ways we word things. :)

[Alice_Fraggle]

He's gotten life without parole. They took the death penalty off the table in return for him giving up his right to appeal the conviction.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/14/justice/pennsylvania-abortion-doctor-trial/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Yay! I'm glad that this was taken seriously, and that there was an outcome I can agree with. Would he have had a chance for an appeal? I mean - is it likely that the verdict would have been overturned?

What about the people that worked there and did the "snipping" when the "Dr." was away? Will they be charged with anything?

[treemom]

Yay! I'm glad that this was taken seriously, and that there was an outcome I can agree with. Would he have had a chance for an appeal? I mean - is it likely that the verdict would have been overturned?

What about the people that worked there and did the "snipping" when the "Dr." was away? Will they be charged with anything?

I have mixed opinions on some of that. Obviously they should have spoken up, that is the most right thing to do. But there is also a power differential and I think many people let things pass because of fear.

I wonder what the impact of this is going to be overall. What new laws will be passed? What is appropriate care for an infant born alive during an abortion (which it is my opinion should never ever happen)

[Alice_Fraggle]

I found an answer as to whether anyone else will be charged. From the Grand Jury's pdf (http://www.phila.gov/districtattorney/p ... edical.pdf):

"We charge Gosnell, Lynda Williams, Adrienne Moton, and Steven Massof with murder in the first degree. Along with Sherry West, they are also charged with conspiracy to commit murder in relation to the hundreds of unidentifiable instances in which they planned to, and no doubt did, carry out similar killings. We also charge Gosnell with various violations of the Abortion Control Act, including infanticide and performing illegal late-term abortions. Charged as co-conspirators with him in this regard are Williams, West, and Pearl Gosnell, his wife.

Two employees were Gosnell’s accomplices in the administration of the drugs that killed Karnamaya Mongar. We charge Gosnell, Lynda Williams, and Sherry West with third-degree murder, drug delivery resulting in death, violations of the controlled substance act and conspiracy. Gosnell, West, and Elizabeth Hampton are charged with hindering apprehension (and Hampton also with perjury) for lying to the police, to the hospital, and to us about how this woman died.

We charge Gosnell, Lynda Williams, Sherry West, Adrienne Moton, Maddline Joe, Tina Baldwin, Pearl Gosnell, Steven Massof, and Eileen O’Neill with running that organization or conspiring to do so. We charge Massof and O’Neill, in conspiracy with Gosnell, with theft by deception for pretending to be doctors, and billing for their services as if they were licensed physicians.

As a final note, we charge Gosnell and Tina Baldwin (15 years old), his employee, with corrupting the morals of a minor."

So they are charging some of his employees, and they also named the government employees that failed to act. I haven't seen what their sentences will be, but I'm glad that others are being held responsible for what they did.

[Alice_Fraggle]

I have mixed opinions on some of that. Obviously they should have spoken up, that is the most right thing to do. But there is also a power differential and I think many people let things pass because of fear.

I wonder what the impact of this is going to be overall. What new laws will be passed? What is appropriate care for an infant born alive during an abortion (which it is my opinion should never ever happen)

I meant to reply to this first, but I forgot.

I agree that the "Dr." held power over them, and they didn't do anything because they were afraid, but I'm not sure that "because I was afraid of him" is a good enough reason. I do understand why they didn't speak up - jobs are hard to come by, and a great deal of people can't afford to be choosey, but I don't think that should exempt someone from speaking up when something is wrong. Is it better to be employed by someone that murders children, or to be unemployed? Is it better to risk your neck and possibly go to jail, or stand up for those who can't stand up for themselves? I know that I am privileged and that I could afford to walk away from a job that doesn't mesh with my morals, but is it really better to go against your morals? Even if they didn't report it because of fear - how do those people sleep at night? How do they look at other children? How to they come to terms with what they chose to do? (Because to me, it was a choice the whole time.) I really don't understand that.

[treemom]

I think I agree with you. I just don't understand why people did this.

And I feel for those women. This is not what abortion is supposed to be and his terrible care made it this.

[Alice_Fraggle]

I think I agree with you. I just don't understand why people did this.

And I feel for those women. This is not what abortion is supposed to be and his terrible care made it this.

Exactly. I also worry about the women in the future that need/want abortions, and can't get them because of this case. I'm afraid of what this will do to the laws that govern abortions, and the clinic that perform them.

[OkToBeTakei]

Exactly. I also worry about the women in the future that need/want abortions, and can't get them because of this case. I'm afraid of what this will do to the laws that govern abortions, and the clinic that perform them.

That would be my fear. I think what I detest the most is that it is a political agenda. Not that in Scotland/England/Wales that we can take for granted it will not become an agenda but as largely the law here has remained unchanged since 1967 almost makes it a ...diffcult to express this really but if I said 'comfortable,' would that make sense? Every now and then it becomes a political issue which is always shot down or dies quite quickly. Abortion up to 24 weeks is legal and easily accessible and late term abortion is determined on a case to case basis and based basically on the health of the Mother and child, provisions for both the physical and mental health of the Mother. I think when you take away the legal aspect it becomes an individual choice. For me that is what choice is.

Despite our inane spats at times I totally agree with treemom that I feel for those women and it most certainly is not what abortion is about.

I do wonder about those who worked with him. Could it be possible that they thought this was normal, going by the 15 yr old he employed I do not think he went for highly trained staff educated in ethics and so forth? Trying to understand this. I get the any job is better than none. I find it hard to believe that he could have surrounded himself with like minds who colluded with his horror. But nothing really surprises me.

I hope it does not in any way further harm the volatile laws regarding abortion in the US as a political agenda but I fear it will.