Dr. Kermit Gosnell's Trial

[formergothardite]

So you don't think it shows what a disturbed person he was to do that? It would be disturbing if an doctor who treated his patients with respect did something like this, but a man who went out of his way to torture women and deliver live babies, let them suffer and then kill them in an inhumane way, this really is the sign of a disturbed mind. What he did cannot be compared to late term abortions at all, because they aren't the same things.

[oil]

So you don't think it shows what a disturbed person he was to do that? It would be disturbing if an doctor who treated his patients with respect did something like this, but a man who went out of his way to torture women and deliver live babies, let them suffer and then kill them in an inhumane way, this really is the sign of a disturbed mind. What he did cannot be compared to late term abortions at all, because they aren't the same things.

I believe it shows he is disturbed. But I wasnt talking of his torturing women. I was talking of how does it matter how he disposes of the fetus? And you said it was not safe how he did it. How is that disposal not safe? Gruesome yes, but unsafe?

And I also asked how is a humane way to abort a 6 month fetus born alive? Or even a 7 or 8 month fetus for those who agree with abortion on demand for any reason the woman wants because its her body?

You used the word "kill". So does that mean if its a late term abortion like 6 or more months, is it killing a baby?

[formergothardite]

Go google late term abortions. He did not do them. He delivered live babies, let them live, and then killed them. That isn't an abortion. I would also recommend you search for Treemom's story on here. She had a late term abortion and describes how it happened. Her abortion was nothing like what he did because what he did was not abortion.

Keeping fetal remains like he did in jars isn't safe because it shows what a sick person he is. It matters because he shows his twisted mind.

I'm taking it you are against later abortions. We have had threads about late term abortions. You can search and read those if you want to see why people support them.

[Alice_Fraggle]

What it comes down to, to me, is that he DIDN'T dispose of the bodies - he hid them (read the article about keeping dead babies in paper bags in the STAFF refrigerator). He kept the bodies as trophies (in my honest opinion). He's a sick and twisted bastard who MURDERED children. As formergothardite said these weren't late term abortions, these were live births where he murdered the baby. The babies breathed, some cried, and he still "snipped" their spine. That's not an abortion - that's MURDER.

Also, on top of the murder, he put women's lives in danger. He charged them outrageous rates that they most likely had to scrape together, and he didn't even respect those women enough to do the abortions (when they were actually abortions) safely. He ruined, and ended, many lives and that needs to be taken into account too.

I honestly hope he gets the death penalty - he is most certainly deserving of it.

[Dinorah]

What the anti-abortionists fail to realise is that by outlawing abortion, you wont see less of this sort of thing, you'll see more of it.

When abortion was illegal there was a thriving network of underground abortionists. Some were good people who did their best to make abortion available and safe for women who needed it. Many were not. Many were unethical people with little medical training, who worked out of unsanitary basements, administered dangerous medications, all to make a fast buck because they knew there will always be desperate women who will seek abortion regardless of the legalities.

Make abortion illegal and you'll have more Dr Kermit Gosnells and you'll have more dead women and dead fetuses.

This, very much. Pro-lifers seem completely oblivious to the fact that there were plenty of Dr Gosnells when abortion was illegal, and there would be plenty of them again. I've never, ever heard a pro-lifer address the issue of illegal abortions, or the fact that in many countries the abortion rate has actually gone down since abortion was legalized.

[Irishy]

What is the law regarding a live birth outcome of a late term abortion? Are doctors required to take measures to help the baby? Does the baby go into the care of the state?

[treemom]

Go google late term abortions. He did not do them. He delivered live babies, let them live, and then killed them. That isn't an abortion. I would also recommend you search for Treemom's story on here. She had a late term abortion and describes how it happened. Her abortion was nothing like what he did because what he did was not abortion.

Keeping fetal remains like he did in jars isn't safe because it shows what a sick person he is. It matters because he shows his twisted mind.

I'm taking it you are against later abortions. We have had threads about late term abortions. You can search and read those if you want to see why people support them.

I will be happy to speak on why I think what he did was unethical and poor patient care.

[formergothardite]

Treemom I was trying to find links to your story, but I apparently can't work the search function. I know that before I came here and read stories like yours I had this idea that late term abortions were no different then what Gosnell did. The anti-choice propaganda teaches that is what late term abortions are. And of course everyone is horrified.

When reading stories about Dr. Tiller by his patients the one thing that always sticks out is how he treated them with so much kindness and respect.

[treemom]

Treemom I was trying to find links to your story, but I apparently can't work the search function. I know that before I came here and read stories like yours I had this idea that late term abortions were no different then what Gosnell did. The anti-choice propaganda teaches that is what late term abortions are. And of course everyone is horrified.

When reading stories about Dr. Tiller by his patients the one thing that always sticks out is how he treated them with so much kindness and respect.

He was amazing. And he would have been the first to condemn Gosnell.

You are not treating your patients with respect and dignity when you store fetal remains in pickle jars. There is a need for preservation for science, but he wasn't doing that.

And one of the reasons most doctors who do late term abortion use the heart stopping procedure is to avoid life births and the ethical mess it gets into there.

[treemom]

http://freejinger.yuku.com/reply/10002/ ... eply-10002

http://freejinger.yuku.com/reply/9976/K ... reply-9976

http://freejinger.yuku.com/reply/97488/ ... JGHYhgspxE

I think those are a good summary.

Tell me more about how what he did is exactly like the good and respectable patient care I received.

[RosyDaisy]

The man is a monster, and if the death penalty is on the table I can't think of a more deserving recipient. What he did has made every prolifer use this as the standard by which all abortions are judged, and I just get so tired of explaining that what he did is not the norm----->he faced criminal charges and prosecution for a reason. He and his staff disgust me.

I disagree. There are fates worse than death. He deserves life in prison where he will have to be forever haunted by his actions.

[Alice_Fraggle]

I disagree. There are fates worse than death. He deserves life in prison where he will have to be forever haunted by his actions.

Normally I'd agree with you, but he doesn't seem to be haunted by his actions now, and I doubt that things will change in the future. He is pure evil, and I don't know if he'll ever realize what he did was disgusting, cruel, and, well, evil.

[laura oz]

Alice Fragle, you beat me to it. I was just about to post something very similar to what you did. The man seems to have no conscience and I don't think he will ever see that what he did was just horrible and evil and twistedly monstrous. All the time in the world to think and reflect will have no beneficial impact on him. There are things that the majority of us have that are sorely missing in him: empathy, compassion, ethics, and a conscience.

[Kitty Luna]

What is the law regarding a live birth outcome of a late term abortion? Are doctors required to take measures to help the baby? Does the baby go into the care of the state?

The way most (I say most to exclude providers like Gosnell) procedures are done in the US now, they are incompatible with life outside the uterus. Gosnell didn't do the procedure the same way that other, respected late term providers do. He did it cheap and easy, which resulted in live birth. Gosnell claimed to have used a drug that would stop the heart of the fetus prior to extraction, but the drug was not found in his clinic.

[oil]

Go google late term abortions. He did not do them. He delivered live babies, let them live, and then killed them. That isn't an abortion. I would also recommend you search for Treemom's story on here. She had a late term abortion and describes how it happened. Her abortion was nothing like what he did because what he did was not abortion.

Keeping fetal remains like he did in jars isn't safe because it shows what a sick person he is. It matters because he shows his twisted mind.

I'm taking it you are against later abortions. We have had threads about late term abortions. You can search and read those if you want to see why people support them.

I am not against late term abortion.

I am not asking about why women do that, its their freedom to have it, so I dont need Treemon story.

I am not asking you why it matters if he shows a twisted mind. I asked you why it matters to you who feels bad about feet in a jar when theres dead fetus in trash. You said it was "unsafe". How?

You used the word "kill" so whats the difference if you put a drug by injection to stop the fetus heart inside the uterus (humane) or snip the spinel cord where the fetus wont but feel it for a second? You are saying one way is "killing" and one way it not??

I dont want to search to see why people support late term abortion. I support late term abortion for any reason. I am honest about what is it all the time. Thats the diffrerence of me and you I believe.

I think its not good for abortion rights if supporters are contradicting to them selves.

Will you answer my questions now?

[treemom]

I am not against late term abortion.

I am not asking about why women do that, its their freedom to have it, so I dont need Treemon story.

I am not asking you why it matters if he shows a twisted mind. I asked you why it matters to you who feels bad about feet in a jar when theres dead fetus in trash. You said it was "unsafe". How?

You used the word "kill" so whats the difference if you put a drug by injection to stop the fetus heart inside the uterus (humane) or snip the spinel cord where the fetus wont but feel it for a second? You are saying one way is "killing" and one way it not??

I dont want to search to see why people support late term abortion. I support late term abortion for any reason. I am honest about what is it all the time.

Will you answer my questions now?

It is not an appropriate or legal standard of care. I am not dishonest about what late term abortion is, and the testimony offered about Gosnell does not actually reflect legal, ethical late term abortion. It also does not reflect an appropriate standard of care for the women.

And yes, one way is killing and one is not. The current legal standard of life is born alive or born and resuscitated. So it is not killing while a fetus in utero, but cutting a spinal cord of a live, born infant is neither legal, nessecary or safe. Why do it if there is no reason?

[formergothardite]

It isn't safe to keep feet in jars like he did. There are proper procedures to go through when disposing of hazardous items. Sticking them in a pickle jar isn't one of those ways. Maybe where you live people store hazardous waste in pickle jars, but that isn't how it is done here.

Once the fetus is no longer attached to the mother in anyway, it becomes an individual human. As long as it is in the womb it is a part of the mother. It is a potential life, and by stopping the heart with medication and then delivering a non-living fetus, it is ending that potential life. That is an abortion. But it isn't the same as killing a baby who is no longer connected to the mother in anyway.

So do you really not see the difference in what he did and how Treemom and many others had legal, safe late term abortions? Do you really think what he did was an abortion?

When you say you are being honest about it, what do you mean by that? Is, in your opinion, having a late term abortion no different than killing a baby who is already born and breathing on it's own? That is what it sounds like to me you are saying, but I could be misreading you.

[OkToBeTakei]

It isn't safe to keep feet in jars like he did. There are proper procedures to go through when disposing of hazardous items. Sticking them in a pickle jar isn't one of those ways. Maybe where you live people store hazardous waste in pickle jars, but that isn't how it is done here.

Once the fetus is no longer attached to the mother in anyway, it becomes an individual human. As long as it is in the womb it is a part of the mother. It is a potential life, and by stopping the heart with medication and then delivering a non-living fetus, it is ending that potential life. That is an abortion. But it isn't the same as killing a baby who is no longer connected to the mother in anyway.

So do you really not see the difference in what he did and how Treemom and many others had legal, safe late term abortions? Do you really think what he did was an abortion?

When you say you are being honest about it, what do you mean by that? Is, in your opinion, having a late term abortion no different than killing a baby who is already born and breathing on it's own? That is what it sounds like to me you are saying, but I could be misreading you.

Could be wrong but yes I think you are misreading. I think rather than stating an opinion oil was looking for clarity on language nuance.

[formergothardite]

She accused me of being dishonest about what abortion is, while she takes the high ground and is all honest and stuff. So it would be nice to know what she thinks I'm lying about. This is the third time she has brought up late term abortions here trying to get people to say why they think women should be allowed to have them. The first two times she claimed she had no opinion on the subject, but it appears that she now supports it.

[treemom]

I guess I can't understand why Oil doesn't understand the issue with fetus feet in a jar. I realize she isn't an American, but is that consider compassionate standard of care in Israel?

[oil]

I delete this because I answered you and then asked more questions. But I decided its not a passionate topic for me like I see for some of you. I have some different views than you and its not important to me as to you. Its best I dont get involved more in this because my questions to you may offend you and I dont want it like that. Sorry if you say Im running away. Im only stopping my self from a round round round argue of different views. I dont want to convince you of any thing, I want freedom of choice thats all.

[oil]

I guess I can't understand why Oil doesn't understand the issue with fetus feet in a jar. I realize she isn't an American, but is that consider compassionate standard of care in Israel?

I think its disgusting the same way its disgusting as putiing it in biotrash bag. But the fetus cant need compassion when its dead. The only compassion would be for the woman not to see where it goes. Compassion so then put it in a coffin. In Israel they do it the same way as US I think, biotrash and not jars.

[oil]

She accused me of being dishonest about what abortion is, while she takes the high ground and is all honest and stuff. So it would be nice to know what she thinks I'm lying about. This is the third time she has brought up late term abortions here trying to get people to say why they think women should be allowed to have them. The first two times she claimed she had no opinion on the subject, but it appears that she now supports it.

Im sorry it sound harsh or calling you lying. I was wrong to say it like that. May be in my heart I believe many women know its killing but dont like to accept it. So theyre not being honest with them selfs. I see I wrong about you for this.

I claim no opinion because I dont care if its legal or not. My morality believes it should be a womans choice but I dont care what they do. Maybe I said it the wrong way. No opinion I mean I dont say You should have an abortion or You should not have an abortion. I dont have opinion on what they do. Opinion may be the wrong word?

And you are wrong wit that bolded. I didnt bring it up at all any time. It was already a discussion.

I dont care what people do if they want it or not, I just say I agee with the choice at any stage.

Now this is my last talk on this subject. Abortion is not why I like to read here, I came here for fun and I made a mistake going to these discussions that women feel strongly in their heart about it.

[oil]

It is not an appropriate or legal standard of care. I am not dishonest about what late term abortion is, and the testimony offered about Gosnell does not actually reflect legal, ethical late term abortion. It also does not reflect an appropriate standard of care for the women.

And yes, one way is killing and one is not. The current legal standard of life is born alive or born and resuscitated. So it is not killing while a fetus in utero, but cutting a spinal cord of a live, born infant is neither legal, nessecary or safe. Why do it if there is no reason?

Treemom, I believe you are not being dishonest. I see we only have different view or the word used.

Why did he do it that way? why he didnt do the protocol way like every other abortion doctor. Did it get answered in court why he did it like that? Is he getting a pleasure from it? I cant find an answer from reading. He is a scary man if he doing it for sick mental reasons.

[Alice_Fraggle]

I think its disgusting the same way its disgusting as putiing it in biotrash bag. But the fetus cant need compassion when its dead. The only compassion would be for the woman not to see where it goes. Compassion so then put it in a coffin. In Israel they do it the same way as US I think, biotrash and not jars.

I think I also misunderstood you. I understand what you mean now (about disposing of the bodies). They need to be disposed of, not necessarily compassionately, but just disposed of in general. He didn't dispose of them (at least not all of them). He was breaking the law by not disposing of bio-waste properly. Those bodies could harbor all sorts of nastiness, and he didn't seem to care in the slightest. It's disgusting.

I hope it doesn't sound like I'm trying to be mean to you - I really don't mean to at all. I'm just gobsmacked at the way the whole thing was run. Early, mid or late abortions aren't my business, but they should at least be done safely, and responsibly - taking the mother into account. For crying out loud (this whole thing really upsets me) there were DEAD BABIES (I think of them as babies, as a great deal of them took breaths outside of their mothers' bodies) in the STAFF LUNCH FRIDGE! How can you work there? (I'm sure it comes down to *needing a job* - in this economy I'm sure I'd do things I didn't *want* to do to make money if I needed to, but I'd never work in a clinic like this one!) I hope the people who worked there have nightmares for not standing up for those babies and women.

Does anyone know if the workers will be charged with anything? Reckless endangerment or something? In my opinion - some of them are responsible as well.

My heart goes out to all the women who went there; to those that lived, and those that died - I hope they can rest in peace. I can't imagine the horror of waking up in that house of horrors.