That one where Abigail gives away the fridge...

[JenXer]

Oh well, can you remember being 20 and so much wiser and smarter and passionate than everybody else? So alive with passion for a faith or a political idea or making the world a better place? Of course, nobody else understands you, as you are so much more radical and advanced than they, and their warnings only mean that they conform to the mediocre expectations of mainstream society.

Oh, sure, sure! I remember that well. And I cringe. My passionate friends and I were all about natural childbirth/attachment parenting. We all thought that was the only way to raise healthy, well adjusted children.

Then about ten years into it something would happen that would necessitate an epidural or formula and we realized, "Holy cow, we've been sold a bill of goods. These things didn't hurt us or our children! They ended up helping immensely!!".

It was easy enough for us to correct our unbalanced views. With the next baby we'd have an epidural, no big deal. But this current generation is going to find that it's far more difficult to give up poverty.

I have a question regarding this Catholic vow of poverty. Is it more like "be poor so you can suffer more on earth and get a greater reward in heaven" or more like "don't have more than you need so that anyone can have some" ?

I'd say it's some of both. Religious orders take a vow of poverty so that they can focus on what really matters to them and not be distracted by worldly goods. Plus, it would be unseemly for say, Mother Theresa's sisters to be living in a luxury high rise while tending to those in need.

But married couples do not take a vow of poverty. Some are choosing that route for ostensibly good reasons. It would probably benefit all of us to have less attachment to material goods. And they want to be able to focus on prayer and service. But they don't see that there is a major dose of spiritual pride in their decision, as evidenced by their blogs and posts about how awesome it is that they are poor.

So what can they do when they reach 35, have eight young children, sporadic work experience and bachelors degrees in medieval literature from Ave Maria University?

Edited to add: I was writing this while the previous two posters were writing. They explained it extremely well. Also, I forgot to add that those degrees in medieval literature came with $100,000 of student debt.

[Conuly]

Oh, sure, sure! I remember that well. And I cringe.

And you were so much smarter then than you were at 13, when you simply thought you knew everything.

Now, ten years older and out of your 20s, now you're finally old and wise enough to know everything - right? I know I am! It took me thirty years, but unlike the false confidence of the past I know I can safely state that I am wise and mature *now* ;)

[JenXer]

Ha, Conuly, so true! Except that now I am in my mid-40s and I have finally figured it all out.

The older I get the more I realize how little I know. I also realize how unfairly I have judged. I'm really working on pulling the plank out of my eye before I notice the speck in others'.

[Cora Persephona]

Thank you for your answers! What you all said makes sense and it seems to me to be the complete opposite of what Abigail is doing.

[Cora Persephona]

Oh God, cello lessons for HERSELF to make her feel better about herself? *doh

As to poverty - there are a lot of ideas behind it. One is that this frees the monk or the nun - they don't have to worry about getting rich or keeping their possessions, so they can get closer to god and other people. The vow of poverty only means that they don't want to own personal possessions, though. There is a communal fund which is used to pay for buildings, food or whatever is needed. So if you are a nun or a monk and you aren't one of those orders that rely entirely on charity (thus giving somebody a chance to do good works), you usually don't have to worry about the fridge. There will be a fridge, but it won't be your own, but the community's.

Another point is that riches are not spoken of favourably by Jesus - but poverty is. Remember the Sermon on the Mount, when he says blessed are the poor in spirit. Some orders took this to mean it's okay if you own stuff as long as you are "poor in spirit", whatever that may mean. So there was lots of division in the medieval church as to what was the correct way of being poor. *sigh

So they are poor because being a follower of Jesus means extolling poverty and sneering at riches.

Then some look on voluntary poverty as an act of solidarity with the poor. Some orders choose to live in poor neighbourhoods and live like the poor to show they are with THEM, not with the rich who profit from structures that exploit the poor.

Fun fact: this is what a Missionary of Charity owns:

"A Sister's possessions include: three saris (one to wear, one to wash, one to mend), two or three cotton habits, a girdle, a pair of sandals, a crucifix and rosary. They also have a plate, a set of cutlery, a serviette, a canvas bag, and prayer book. In cold countries, possessions also include a cardigan and other suitable items according to the local conditions (a coat, scarf, shoes etc)." (quote from wikipedia)

No fridge. :-)

Huh, I always heard the 'poor in spirit' thing explained as well, to put it gently, less intellectually gifted(and the way it's put in my native language you can't quite explain it any other way). But I'm an Orthodox (by tradition, because I'm more of an agnostic by conviction).

[rward]

Huh, I always heard the 'poor in spirit' thing explained as well, to put it gently, less intellectually gifted(and the way it's put in my native language you can't quite explain it any other way). But I'm an Orthodox (by tradition, because I'm more of an agnostic by conviction).

Oh, no "poor in spirit" means not having a whole hearted belief in god, not being kind, joyful, generous, empathetic, etc., it has nothing to do with intelligence.

In fact, traditionally, convents were a haven for the developmentally disabled. I went to college at a Catholic school with a nursing home for the order that ran it attached. A number of the nuns in the nursing home were very clearly developmentally disabled, though they had a sincere belief in god and were very nice, kind people who had served the order whole heartedly for decades.

I asked about this once, and a nun explained to me that for centuries, developmentally disabled daughters were sent to become nuns because they didn't have the support and societal acceptance that they enjoy today. It really was the best option for a lot of women, keeping them housed, clothed, fed and safe from the sort of men who would see only the perfect victim.. The nun told me that when she had just joined the order, the developmentally disabled sisters were held up as examples of the sort of joyful, complete embrace of God nuns were supposed to aspire to.

Nowadays, the developmentally disabled go to schools, get jobs, and get all sorts of support, and their parents aren't pushed to get rid of them as soon as possible, so you don't see that much anymore.

[Dysfundamental]

The Greek is (transliterated) "ptochos pneuma" so I don't see how you would get "cognitively disabled" out of that. It either means literally begging for breath (COPD folks, you are blessed!) or metaphorically begging for inspiration, the "breath of life", etc.

I'm used to "poor in spirit" after 48 years of listening to it, but it's kind of an awkward translation, lovely though it is as a phrase.

[Cora Persephona]

Oh, no "poor in spirit" means not having a whole hearted belief in god, not being kind, joyful, generous, empathetic, etc., it has nothing to do with intelligence.

In fact, traditionally, convents were a haven for the developmentally disabled. I went to college at a Catholic school with a nursing home for the order that ran it attached. A number of the nuns in the nursing home were very clearly developmentally disabled, though they had a sincere belief in god and were very nice, kind people who had served the order whole heartedly for decades.

I asked about this once, and a nun explained to me that for centuries, developmentally disabled daughters were sent to become nuns because they didn't have the support and societal acceptance that they enjoy today. It really was the best option for a lot of women, keeping them housed, clothed, fed and safe from the sort of men who would see only the perfect victim.. The nun told me that when she had just joined the order, the developmentally disabled sisters were held up as examples of the sort of joyful, complete embrace of God nuns were supposed to aspire to.

Nowadays, the developmentally disabled go to schools, get jobs, and get all sorts of support, and their parents aren't pushed to get rid of them as soon as possible, so you don't see that much anymore.

Maybe I should explain myself better. The examples you have given are exactly what I was talking about. The 'poor in spirit' - developmentally disabled as you said- are supposed to be blessed because they could be more sincere or unquestioning in their belief. This is what I was taught and this is why I never considered that 'poor in spirit' could ever refer to actual poverty.

[Dysfundamental]

Cora Persephona, what you were taught seems off base given the original Greek of the Beatitudes. There's just no way it means "cognitively disabled".

But agree that it also doesn't refer to poverty. There are plenty of other bits in the Bible that do, though.

[singsingsing]

I'm a Christian, and I've never heard of the idea that 'poor in spirit' is supposed to mean 'cognitively delayed'. The way I always heard it explained is that it means humble and not attached to worldly things. Nothing to do with intelligence, more to do with lack of pride. So if you're proud of your 'poverty', like Abigail, you're not poor in spirit.

[Cora Persephona]

The Greek is (transliterated) "ptochos pneuma" so I don't see how you would get "cognitively disabled" out of that. It either means literally begging for breath (COPD folks, you are blessed!) or metaphorically begging for inspiration, the "breath of life", etc.

I am not Greek, but it's interesting to learn how it's translated. In my language it translates differently. I googled a bit and now I see that it is interpreted as referring to people that aspire to a greater closeness to God (although the literal translation means just what I said before). I guess my elementary school Religion teacher didn't know her stuff very well. :oops:

[Dysfundamental]

In Luke 6:20, the (presumably) same bit of the sermon is rendered more directly as "makarioi hoi ptochoi," or "blessed are the poor/paupers/beggars" without any of the "pneuma" stuff.

Cora Persephona, I don't want to press you about what your native language is, but I'm interested to know if the confusion about that particular Beatitude comes from a quirk of translation, or from an idiom drift---like if the phrase meant "searching for understanding" back in the time of translation, but then became more narrowly used to refer to people with cognitive disabilities?

Kind of like how my goddaughter is confused that all the Flintstones are opposite-gender couples, despite the theme song promising they'll "have a gay old time"? Sorry if that seems like an inappropriately flip comparison, but she just asked me about that so it's fresh in my mind.

[Cora Persephona]

In Luke 6:20, the (presumably) same bit of the sermon is rendered more directly as "makarioi hoi ptochoi," or "blessed are the poor/paupers/beggars" without any of the "pneuma" stuff.

Cora Persephona, I don't want to press you about what your native language is, but I'm interested to know if the confusion about that particular Beatitude comes from a quirk of translation, or from an idiom drift---like if the phrase meant "searching for understanding" back in the time of translation, but then became more narrowly used to refer to people with cognitive disabilities?

Kind of like how my goddaughter is confused that all the Flintstones are opposite-gender couples, despite the theme song promising they'll "have a gay old time"? Sorry if that seems like an inappropriately flip comparison, but she just asked me about that so it's fresh in my mind.

I think its that because the word we use to translate spirit in this particular circumstance can also mean intelligence not only breath. Now that I think about it, it makes sense how the confusion came to be. If the Greek word means breath, it was translated correctly but I think at some point the other meaning of the word took over. So 'poor in breath' turned into 'poor in intelligence'. The wonders of language(Romanian in this case)!

[Cora Persephona]

Also, I know this is not the only time poverty is mentioned. It's just something that caught my eye in a previous post.

[Dysfundamental]

Thanks, Cora Persephona! Romanian is such a gorgeous language. I wish I had the opportunity to learn it.

[Cora Persephona]

Thanks, Cora Persephona! Romanian is such a gorgeous language. I wish I had the opportunity to learn it.

Thank you too for the great discussion!

[Arete]

"Pneuma" has two meanings in Greek. It can refer to either physical breath or spirit. The "ptochoi pneuma" of the NT Greek most definitely refers to poor in spirit, meaning not prideful.

Monastic poverty vows do not apply to families, any more than monastic celibacy vows apply to married couples. Abigail doesn't have a fucking clue.

[Lotus]

I read her blog post yesterday & thought what a stupid move on her part. Just ridiculous.

[Hane]

My brother-in-law is a Dominican monk, so to my knowledge he took a vow of poverty when he joined the order. I've seen how he lives, and while his lifestyle is very different from mine, he certainly does not suffer for the sake of suffering. The form that a vow of poverty appears to take, for him, is that he lives simply and without debt, that most of his property is considered to be communal with the other brothers (he has his own car, computer, clothing, and standard personal items, but that's about it), and that his focus is on doing what the Church needs rather than on seeking the highest-paying job. For example, when he first joined his order, he had a job stage managing plays at a local theater. He has a background in drama and made decent money for his community this way. However, after a while his superior asked him to quit stage managing and move to a lower-paying job at a local parish because the rehearsals and performances he had to be present for were taking him away from the other monks too frequently, so he did.

My husband and I were guests at his organization's main monastery before and it's actually pretty swanky. It's a huge house in a nice suburb - it has to be when about a dozen people live there. It has a nice, full kitchen and the monks eat very well. Sure, there is a chapel and a lot of time is spent in prayer and study, but they also have central air, premium cable, fast Internet, a home theater system, a gym, a library, and a pool and hot tub out back where we spent many enjoyable hours drinking beer and bullshitting about philosophy. He's since moved and his current digs are much more humble, because his order sent him to set up a branch in a different, economically depressed city, but he still has all the modern conveniences of life as you would expect them. He would certainly not give up his refrigerator to be closer to Jesus and would probably have some pretty strong words about how ridiculous that is if he were asked about it.

I'm not Catholic, just sharing my perceptions of what religious life is like as someone on the outside of it. I'm sure one of the many Catholics on this board can go more in depth about what a vow of poverty actually means in a theological sense.

Savoring Samsara, I was Catholic for the first 55 years of my life, and you've hit the nail right on the head. One of my sister's grad school classmates is a nun, a member of the independent Franciscan order located in my town. The sisters live communally and wear habits and veils, but many of them have had secular jobs--especially in the years when their ministry was getting off the ground and they were pooling their earnings to develop it. (They provide counseling and home health services, and have a religious press and an agricultural/biological summer camp for kids, among other things.) One sister had a temp job at the phone company, and another was a manager at a local bank, for example. They don't live in abject poverty, but live modestly.

One huge responsibility they have is devoting time to the specific tasks they have been assigned at the convent. My sister's classmate ran into a time crunch over a grad school assignment, and sent her professor a note pleading "poverty of time." The professor took it to mean that she was trying to get special treatment and get out of the assignment, but learned that Sister was using convent jargon to explain that she didn't have enough hours in the day to perform her convent duties and still get that particular assignment in on time.

[Boltingmadonna]

JenXer said:

I can tell that we get judged sometimes because we are encouraging our children to follow a different sort of path. Ours go to secular universities and major in employable fields. We call it prudence.

Hear, hear. Good for you for making sure your children will have a choice about how they want to live. One of the worst things about poverty is it takes away your choices.

My husband and I lived in voluntary semi-poverty for about 10 years when we were involved with the Catholic charismatic renewal, a/k/a Sword of the Spirit. We were students when we joined up, and then he worked at minimum wage jobs and I stayed home with the kids. Nearly all of our spare time was devoted to activities within the group--prayer time, Bible study, training courses, and different types of service like baby-sitting, food prep, managing transportation for group events. Our poverty didn't provide benefits for other people because we had nothing extra to give. We did share our meals with guests and anyone who showed up and had a need. We lived in a house with 4-6 other people. We had a grocery budget of five dollars apiece for the week (this was back in the 70s when you could get chicken on sale for 29 cents a pound, but it still was a tight budget.) We did have a refrigerator. One of the rental houses we stayed in didn't have a stove, so we went scavenging and found an old one out on the curb. Two of the four burners worked, so yay. We took it inside and used it. We got sheets and towels from Goodwill. Most of my clothes came from Goodwill, too, or from rock-bottom clearance sales. We had no medical insurance at times. Luckily we were young and pretty healthy.

I haunted garage sales and such to get cheap toys and clothes for the kids, and I took them on the bus (we didn't have a car) to the library and to free programs at the Y. Some parents didn't bother--they just stayed home and the kids didn't do anything for enrichment.

This was presented to us as being all about being dedicated to Jesus. Not pursuing a career or education meant we could spend all our spare time trying to convert people and get them to join the community. In retrospect, I think it was more about mind control. If you keep people so poor they never even have enough to eat, they have no choices. They have to work so hard at simple things like keeping the children clothed and fed that they never have time to think about a different way of life. No money means no buying books or music, no going to events where you might see people living differently and enjoying it. We weren't starving, but our diet was beans and pasta with minimal protein, little fresh fruit or veggies, and no treats. I noticed it a lot when I was pregnant. I was always hungry yet nauseated at the same time, and had no energy. I needed protein and vitamins that I wasn't getting.

I am so happy that we got out when our children were still young. I would never have allowed them to live like that all their lives. A very sad moment in my life was when my oldest son said that he wondered if he would have been taller if he'd had more to eat as a child. : ( I always thought I was making sure he got enough to eat, but I guess I'll never know.

Abigail's crap really pushes my buttons because of this. This isn't something she's doing for God. It's being done for neurotic human reasons. Go to therapy, get a job, and buy a damn refrigerator. God is not going to give you a medal for Best Little Poor Girl Evar. I think she probably will wake up eventually and realize this is not the life she wants any more. But it could be a hell of a mess by then. (Sorry for the tl;dr.)

[samurai_sarah]

Grocery store eggs here in Massachusetts are mostly brown. And I know what you mean by "watermarked", but the grocery store eggs here really don't get that.

The upside of the grocery store eggs is that they keep for weeks and weeks in the refrigerator.

I was always told that eggs go from farm to grocery store in 5 to 7 days, nowhere near a month. Certainly that is what all the egg industry sites say, and it seems in keeping with what the commercial egg farmers in my home town did.

Thank goodness. I was beginning to think that maybe that's my eyes playing tricks at me. Interesting to hear that grocery store eggs in the US don't really get that. Something to do with the washing, maybe? (Okay, I'll stop rambling on about eggs, now. :shifty: )

[Arete]

There is no doubt in my mind that if Abigail actually talked to a mainstream Catholic nun, priest, or theologian about her "poverty", she would be told in no uncertain terms that she was committing a grave sin against her children and indulging in the deadly sin of pride. Straight up. What she is doing is "Look at how holy I am!" exhibitionism of the worse kind, because she is causing the suffering of children.

The church may tell you to turn away from materialism, but it does not require you take your children's bread and feed it to the dogs. That chick never gets tired of seeing her "holiness" in the mirror of her delusions. Her poor children who do not have food stability even though there is no reason they shouldn't? Jesus wept.

[dairyfreelife]

Abigail can afford dance lessons and cello rentals and claims to be in poverty while living in WV.

Abigail lives in WV and can afford organic milk jugs and gives away her fridge while complaining about being poor.

Abigail remolded her kitchen and redecorated her home while she resides in WV and complains she is so poor.

Abigail says skinny fridges are hard to find because ppl in WV have big refridgerators...newsflash to Abby, people here are in real poverty and stock up when they are able. Many people here hunt, especially deer, and they need the storage space to hold the meat.

Abigail, grow up and get over your damn self! You wouldn't know real poverty if it came up and bite you on the ass.

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

And you were so much smarter then than you were at 13, when you simply thought you knew everything.

Now, ten years older and out of your 20s, now you're finally old and wise enough to know everything - right? I know I am! It took me thirty years, but unlike the false confidence of the past I know I can safely state that I am wise and mature *now* ;)

Confession time: I was totally having this thought, totally not ironically, earlier today. Thank you for the reality check. :lol:

[Wolfie]

Well my chickens are free range but in the winter there's nothing for them to eat except the packaged feed from the feed store that I give them and their eggs are still orange with huge yolks that stand up really nice and they taste much better than grocery store eggs. I imagine factory chickens probably eat a feed very similar to what mine eat. I couldn't find any exact information on what brand any egg companies feed.

I googled the age of eggs and although eggs are collected and packaged immediately it can take 30 days for them to actually be on the store shelf. Apparently it depends on how much of a stock your store keeps. There are warehouses where eggs sit for a month too and apparently it's legal in some places for them to be rewashed and repackaged after 30 days. I haven't bought eggs in forever but I'm going to look at the store next time I'm there to see if there is a packaged on date and figure out how old the eggs there are. I'm really curious now!

Eggs that are 30 days old are at the FDA sell by date. Can you link your sources for this information? Eggs past the 30 day sell by date can be sold as grade B in some places, but not the grade A eggs we buy in grocery stores.

And are you saying that you never give your hens treats or kitchen scraps in addition to your feed? Mine come running for kitchen scraps, they love them.