"Kids are growing up so fast these days"

[Hane]

moodygirl86, kudos on your determination! That said, I must admit I'm surprised to learn of someone who was capable of living independently at 16. The only other one I knew was a colleague who (owing to her mother's mental issues) had herself made an emancipated minor while still in high school (I think this was in the '70s), got a room at the YWCA, and supported herself.

[moodygirl86]

Thanks, Hane! To be fair though, this was in 2003, when it was easier for a school leaver to find work as long as they were enthusiastic and willing to work hard. And the company who employed me were impressed when I explained that I had moved from the other side of England to improve my job prospects, as there wasn't a lot of work in the small market town I had come from. The hiring manager said he had never met a teenager who was so proactive, and gave me a chance for that, which I truly appreciated. But I doubt I'd be able to do that if I was just starting out now. I don't envy the school leavers in today's economic climate, not one bit.

[ILoveJellybeans]

Some people I know are horrified that I expect my daughter, at 10, to be able to dress her self in the morning, fix a simple breakfast (cereal, peel boiled eggs, or whatever grab thing we may have...I even let her use the microwave! * horrors!!!*), feed the cats and then watch TV quietly till I get up. I then give her her meds, make her lunch, brush/fix her hair and get her out the door for the bus.

Evidently, this is BAD! I should get up with her at ass crack of dawn and 'be a parent.' :roll:

I was getting up at ass crack myself when I was much, much younger and remember many a sat mornings, sitting in front of the TV while eating a bowl of cereal and arguing with my little sister over who got the toy. No one blinked at such a thing, then! But now? People are horrified! :penguin-no:

Of course, people will then compliment the kid on how independent she is, how she 'is a good thinker' and expresses herself well. :doh:

Ps....shhhhhh, don't tell, but we live across the street from her after school / summer program. I let her walk over all by her self during the summer and non school days. I do, however, peek out the window and watch. :shhh:

Seriously? Id be suprised if a 10 year old wasnt capable of dressing themself and making cereal. Im not a morning person, and if I have kids who are, I would totally be fine with them getting up early, making themself breakfast and watching TV/playing quietly for a bit, once theyre old enough to do that without getting into trouble.

[Rosa]

16 is a little early, but just random variation in school starting age means a lot of kids in the US graduate at 17 and most are expected to be pretty independent - I went to college at 17, just because I have a late birthday. My mom paid my living expenses the first year but after that I worked & paid rent and whatnot. It wasn't at all unusual or that long ago. Most kids that age have their parents as a resource but aren't dependent on them in day to day life.

The economy's been so shitty, people end up moving home a lot right now, but in a lot of cases that's mutual need - I know an awful lot of people in their 20s and early 30's who have "moved home" but they're often paying a good chunk of mom & dad's mortgage.

[notsocommon]

Seriously? Id be suprised if a 10 year old wasnt capable of dressing themself and making cereal. Im not a morning person, and if I have kids who are, I would totally be fine with them getting up early, making themself breakfast and watching TV/playing quietly for a bit, once theyre old enough to do that without getting into trouble.

I really do not understand people's objection, other than they think I need to be hovering over her 24/7. I've had people ask things like 'what if there was a fire!?' ' Uh..... She knows how scream for me, then to open the door and exit it.'

I am just glad she's old enough to start her morning on her own and I get to sleep in a little.....bad mom that I am! :dance:

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

As my partner and I have started to prepare for TTC in the next two years (GULP!), we have had a lot of these discussions about how much to shelter/protect/etc. (He already has a son, and is pretty laid-back. His son loves to cook, for example, and at 10 he already knew how to bake, cut an onion, etc. Meanwhile his peers aren't allowed to use knives or boil water.) I am very afraid of being a crazy helicopter mom. I am TERRIFIED to let my kid do stuff like walk home from school alone. I do have a reason - I was sexually abused at a young age, and I'm VERY suspicious of grown men around kids in any capacity. I think I'm going to be part of the problem...I teach at a very prestigious and highly competitive college, and I see how infantile some of the 18 year-olds are. They are smart and talented, but when it comes to life experience, they seem to know less than I did when I was 12.

[Hane]

Some people I know are horrified that I expect my daughter, at 10, to be able to dress herself in the morning, fix a simple breakfast (cereal, peel boiled eggs, or whatever grab thing we may have...I even let her use the microwave! * horrors!!!*), feed the cats and then watch TV quietly till I get up. I then give her her meds, make her lunch, brush/fix her hair and get her out the door for the bus.

Evidently, this is BAD! I should get up with her at ass crack of dawn and 'be a parent.' :roll:

I was getting up at ass crack myself when I was much, much younger and remember many a sat mornings, sitting in front of the TV while eating a bowl of cereal and arguing with my little sister over who got the toy. No one blinked at such a thing, then! But now? People are horrified! :penguin-no:

Of course, people will then compliment the kid on how independent she is, how she 'is a good thinker' and expresses herself well. :doh:

I am a worse mother than you. When my daughter was a preschooler, I used to leave the cereal in a low kitchen cabinet and set the cable box for the public TV station. On Saturdays, while I was still asleep, she'd get up, grab the cereal, and turn on Sesame Street.

On a scary but all-too-true note: At the age of SIX (early 1930s), my mother was sent to the bank--across a busy road in New York City--to deposit her father's paycheck. In 1958, one of my kindergarten classmates used to ride her bike--unaccompanied--about a mile to school.

[Mama Mia]

Yeah, I would expect most ten year olds to be able to get up and get themselves ready for school, and to make their lunch etc.. and get to school.

A couple of my kids had issues, and I had to prod them along, but otherwise kids should be able to do all of that themselves.

And walk to the corner store, or go outside and play.

[Conuly]

I really do not understand people's objection, other than they think I need to be hovering over her 24/7. I've had people ask things like 'what if there was a fire!?' ' Uh..... She knows how scream for me, then to open the door and exit it.'

If there's a fire then it's just as well that at least one person in the house is awake, isn't it?

[Ellimenopy]

When my husband was 12 in the early eighties, he was babysitting his family's catfish farm overnight, by himself. You have to turn on the aerators if it gets too hot or the fish will die. So he was walking around all night, checking thermometers by flashlight. He knew to go to his sister's house if he needed to call somebody. Kids are capable of a lot more than most parents let them do.

[Lulu]

When I hear that phrase of kids growing up to early/quickly these days I assume they are talking about socially. I will admit that I am a bit more on the less permissive side with what my kids can and can't do. There is way too much crap on TV, radio and movies that both DH and I don't agree with. Same with clothing.

As for self sufficiency they can but I prefer they don't but thats just cause of the mess :lol: If I were to work outside of the home then they'd definitely have to step up more. If all my children leave home knowing how to cook, clean, wash clothes, do simple home maintenance, mow a lawn etc then as a mother I have done something right.

[roddma]

People on other boards complain about spoiled and dependent kids are. But heck I would rather be them than a bitter Fundie daughter/son who was expected to tend siblings, run a fake business, and practically skip the teen years. Parenting has turned into a competitive sport and some parents push too hard. They think if Johnny or Suzie can't read chapter books by age 5 something is wrong with them. They think Johnny or Suzie should be able to clean a whole house at 8. Everything is on schedules. The list goes on and on. I am like ghees they are only kids once. The transition to adulthood is a gradual process . Forcing them to be mini-adults isn't going to guarantee anything. While I don't think society is any more dangerous, there are more ways to access children.

[already hungover]

Please forgive the tangent; I'm kind of just letting my feelings out here. This has been on my mind and stressing me out lately, so feel free to ignore.

I recently turned 25. I had a pretty crappy upbringing and pretty much raised myself, so when people my age talk about living at home or relying on their parents for financial (or hell, emotional) support, I have a hard time not feeling some combination of envy and scorn. I haven't relied on my parents for much of anything since I was 17. I lost my job in late January and things have been very, very difficult, and I think I'm nearing the end of my abilities to cope. To his credit, my dad, whom I haven't seen since I was 13 or so, did bail me out for rent last month but otherwise I'm on my own. In some ways, the independence is nice, but it's mostly just really fucking stressful and terrifying.

I think the hardest part for me is that if I screw up, I don't have anywhere to go. All of my friends can just move back home if they have a run of bad luck, and though we might bitch about how much it sucks to live with mom and dad in our crappy hometown, I do wish I had that safety net. I think it's great that most people my age can rely on their parents, but I think it's also useful to keep in mind that not all of us can. My roommate, for example, complains all the time about being broke, but her parents buy all of her groceries, bought her a car, pay for her insurance, and had a college fund for her. Basically all of her income that doesn't go to rent is disposable. On the other hand, I am BARELY scraping by.

So, all of this aside, I think there's a lot of legitimacy to the argument that forcing kids to act like "mini-adults" without teaching them any real world coping skills doesn't guarantee that they'll be successful or productive. Despite being pretty much "on my own," since I was a teen, I actually feel like I suck at life a lot more than my peers who have parental support. It's really hard to learn to do things like file income taxes, communicate with professors, make a budget, find a decent apartment, etc. without anyone to guide you. I feel like when my peers were learning about all that stuff, I was just focusing on surviving and getting the fuck out of my house, so I missed out.

As I recently told a friend, the worst part about growing up like I did is that you don't realize it was "bad" or wrong until you're almost too old to fix the damage it's done to the way you see the world.

[Jana814]

People on other boards complain about spoiled and dependent kids are. But heck I would rather be them than a bitter Fundie daughter/son who was expected to tend siblings, run a fake business, and practically skip the teen years. Parenting has turned into a competitive sport and some parents push too hard. They think if Johnny or Suzie can't read chapter books by age 5 something is wrong with them. They think Johnny or Suzie should be able to clean a whole house at 8. Everything is on schedules. The list goes on and on. I am like ghees they are only kids once. The transition to adulthood is a gradual process . Forcing them to be mini-adults isn't going to guarantee anything. While I don't think society is any more dangerous, there are more ways to access children.

Agree!

[mockingbird]

I think it's great that most people my age can rely on their parents, but I think it's also useful to keep in mind that not all of us can. My roommate, for example, complains all the time about being broke, but her parents buy all of her groceries, bought her a car, pay for her insurance, and had a college fund for her. Basically all of her income that doesn't go to rent is disposable. On the other hand, I am BARELY scraping by.

Full confession: There was a girl like that on my freshman floor, and it is my and some of my college friends' guilty pleasure to read her blog because her complaints are so ridiculous. (edit: well it seems like the blushing smiley is one that's messed up right now, but that's what I was going to put here) She was really annoying in real life, but if you know what is really going on in her life, her blog is kind-of hilarious. She is living at home and working and I don't think she has to pay rent to her family, but it's all about how she's soooooooo broke (yet she can plan fancy vacations with her boyfriend).

[dawbs]

*snip*

I think the hardest part for me is that if I screw up, I don't have anywhere to go. All of my friends can just move back home if they have a run of bad luck, and though we might bitch about how much it sucks to live with mom and dad in our crappy hometown, I do wish I had that safety net. I think it's great that most people my age can rely on their parents, but I think it's also useful to keep in mind that not all of us can. My roommate, for example, complains all the time about being broke, but her parents buy all of her groceries, bought her a car, pay for her insurance, and had a college fund for her. Basically all of her income that doesn't go to rent is disposable. On the other hand, I am BARELY scraping by.

This is a very real problem that I think people forget about.

In college, I was paying my own way and 'broke' but not 'poor' in that same way--I could have called home if things got dire (I did once borrow from my parents, a few hundred bucks), I could have them send me food, etc. I was paying my own way and way way WAY in a different income bracket than those people whose parents covered their tuition and sent them an allowance...but I also had a safety net and didn't have fears of *really* going hungry for more than a weekend.

I mean, if I decided tomorrow that I needed to leave my husband, I can't say that my siblings or parents would want to take us in...but they would.

I know that my mom was told the day she married that she could never ever ever come home again. (and yet, that same grandmother didn't "understand" why her other daughter stayed for years in an abusive relationship :angry-banghead: ). My dad is a great guy but, I know for a fact that the inability of my mom to support herself and leave was a source of stress in their marriage until, 20ish years after they got married, she finished her college degree.

I do think the rest of the 'helicoptered/needy vs. to adult' is a battle one can't win. I mean, I follow my toddler around the park, I'm hoovering helicopter. I let her fall on her face and I'm neglectful.

In the court of public opinion, I can't win.

(which pisses me off because in the court of public opinion, my husband can't loose--if he takes her to the park, it doesn't MATTER what he does; the reaction is always "how sweet for daddy to babysit" :rage:)

[2xx1xy1JD]

By the standards of the 1970s and early 1980s, my parents were extremely involved and protective. Everything, however, is relative to the times. This is what protective parenting looked like in that era:

At 5, I could walk around the block to my friend's house.

In kindergarten, an older child walked me to school. When I started grade 1 at age 6, I was taught to cross the road by myself and walk on my own. Kindergarten class used to teach road safety rules to kids to prepare them for this.

At 7, I learned to ride a bike (nobody wore helmets) and would ride with friends in the area. My mom just needed to know what I was doing and who I was doing it with.

Most of the time, my mom insisted that we wear seatbelts - unless we had to squish in extra people, or if a whole bunch of 12 year old girls were sitting in the back of the station wagon.

Around 11, I got to wear a key to school, tied with a shoe lace as a necklace. We could make ourselves a snack in the microwave.

At 12, my friend and I were allowed to take the subway downtown.

Attended high school where teachers never took attendance and there was fairly open drug use (even by the teachers).

I had a curfew of 1 a.m. Since there were no cell phones, my parents would basically sit up and panic about predators and serial killers until we came home. I wish I was joking, but I'm not. At least once a year, there seemed to be a horrible story in the local news about a young girl being kidnapped, raped and murdered.

It never occurred to me that I could ever talk voluntarily with a vice-principal, or that being a social outcast who was openly humiliated was considered bullying, or that a teacher would ever concern themselves with the social/emotional well-being of a student. My mother did advocate for us to an extent that was unusual for the time: she found out that another student was extorting money from me when I was 7, she made sure that I didn't get ignored by teachers just because I was quiet, and she fought some battles to get my sister appropriate help for learning disabilities (she was a special ed teacher herself, and had no patience for the teacher who refused to make accommodations in the education plan, or the teacher who thought that any talk of going to university was clearly absurd).

[Feberin]

I do think the rest of the 'helicoptered/needy vs. to adult' is a battle one can't win. I mean, I follow my toddler around the park, I'm hoovering helicopter. I let her fall on her face and I'm neglectful.

In the court of public opinion, I can't win.

(which pisses me off because in the court of public opinion, my husband can't loose--if he takes her to the park, it doesn't MATTER what he does; the reaction is always "how sweet for daddy to babysit" :rage:)

I also worry about how to give my children room to learn and grow without seeming neglectful. Especially since other parents have approached me about not following my son's every step on the playground. My son is a good climber and strong. I know if his foot slips he can support his own body weight. So while I do try to spot him if it's a very high structure for stuff that isn't crazily high off the ground I let him play on his own and watch from a distance especially now with a younger child. One time I was sitting and nursing the baby and I had another parent approach me and ask if it was my son over there playing by himself. I said it was and they told me that they thought he needed me with a lot of attitude. Another time I when I was quite pregnant another mother felt the need to walk around helping my son with every little thing. Once again I had to go over there because he was getting annoyed about all the extra help. I know she was just trying to help but watching her daughter who was around five and needed help with every little thing made me proud of my two year old who was much more able to do things on his own.

[Mama Mia]

I think no matter what the time period is the ideal amount of protectiveness vs independence varies hugely depending on the particular child's personality.

If I look at 3 generations of my family - I can point to people who at 4 could be trusted to stay in the apartment common yard to play without direct supervision, who at 7 could walk across the street to buy milk, at 9 could stay home alone or take the bus across town, and 12 could babysit all day and could successfully live independently straight out of high school.

But I can also name people who shouldn't have been left alone in a room, let alone outside at 4, who would have still run into the street without looking at 7, who would have lit the house on fire or taken the wrong bus at 9 and who still should have had a babysitter at 12. And no way could they have been independent after high school.

None of those people are better or worse than others - and they all managed to be perfectly well functioning adults -but early independence isn't always a good thing for the individual kid, just like being overly protected isn't good for others.

[Rosa]

I think the hardest part for me is that if I screw up, I don't have anywhere to go. All of my friends can just move back home if they have a run of bad luck, and though we might bitch about how much it sucks to live with mom and dad in our crappy hometown, I do wish I had that safety net.

Quoted for truth. Already hung over, I'm so sorry you're struggling. The safety net is HUGE. I *didn't* rely on my mom (well, not much - i landed back on her for 6 months when i was 24, though.) but knowing I could allowed me to take a lot of risks that I couldn't have taken otherwise. I moved to a new town in a new state with $50 and an acquaintance who would let me crash on her floor (in a good economy, mind you) but I could do that because if I woke up one morning broke and homeless, and none of my social circles panned out to fix it, I knew mom would rescue me.

The key is SUPPORTED independence for kids and young people - because they're learning. If the stakes are too high, if failure is too terrible of an option, there isn't room to stretch and grow.

p.s. you don't suck at life. It's hard for everyone to learn. I watched my mom teach a grown, married woman with kids how to balance her checkbook and keep a budget, one summer - they were our neighbors and as younger children in large families, neither one had ever learned anything about handling money. I've done similar for friends who were really on their own - helped with saving up a rainy day fund, had people live with us, lent money for interview wear - because while every parent SHOULD help their kids get launched, not every parent can or will.

[Kitty]

I wouldn't say that the sexualized clothing aimed at kids/tweens is necessarily a sign of kids being more mature than in ages past. Kids' clothing has always been somewhat based on adult clothing, that is before the '50s and until fairly recently. Well, more precisely, girls' clothing was basically miniature versions of women's clothing. It wasn't until the '50s that boys' clothing is basically smaller versions of men's clothing. So the sexualized clothing for kids isn't that surprising to me, considering the same type of clothing is marketed for women.

Don't think I'm shrugging it off, though. It's pretty troubling that clothes that are considered sexy in our culture are so ubiquitous, because it's really just perpetuating the message that women need attention from men. And selling that message to young girls? Uh, hell no.