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Little Tait's Preemie Hospital Bill


WonderingInWA

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I don't think a 501-c would have been doable time-wise if they are trying to get the money raised quickly. Presumably they set up a separate account that goes specifically to the hospital account. I know that is how most individual fund raisers work.

I'm just fascinated by the growth of internet fundraising. I work for a non-profit so I'm always looking for ways to raise money, the huge success seen on sites like indiegogo is pretty amazing.

I do agree that they should have just used the medicaid since that's what it's there for.

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I wonder what would happen if they really had accepted the Medicaid and are actually asking for money to pay a nonexistent bill.

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My issue is not that they're fundraising - a lot of families fundraise when a member is experiencing a significant medical condition. My issue is also not that they negotiated the cost down with the hospital, because Medicaid/Medicare reimburse at standard rates and private insurance reimburses for a smallish percentage of the billed amount. My issue is that they refused Medicaid when it was offered to them and they qualified by virtue of paying their taxes, and now 4 years later are hosting a non-tax deductible Internet fundraiser to acquire a 6 figure sum to pay off the hospital. It reeks of entitlement.

We had decent insurance when our daughter was born, but still owed the hospital several thousand dollars in copays/coinsurance before we reached our out of pocket max. We didn't even think about trying for a second child until we'd paid off those bills. We have decent insurance now, enhanced slightly by the health care reform provisions, and we know when this baby is born we'll end up owing money and needing to get on a payment plan with the hospital. It's just the way it is.

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My issue is not that they're fundraising - a lot of families fundraise when a member is experiencing a significant medical condition. My issue is also not that they negotiated the cost down with the hospital, because Medicaid/Medicare reimburse at standard rates and private insurance reimburses for a smallish percentage of the billed amount. My issue is that they refused Medicaid when it was offered to them and they qualified by virtue of paying their taxes, and now 4 years later are hosting a non-tax deductible Internet fundraiser to acquire a 6 figure sum to pay off the hospital. It reeks of entitlement.

The whole thing just reeks. There is only a certain amount of money in the "pool" of donations in the universe. Most people budget x dollars to donate to whatever cause they see fit annually. By turning DOWN medicaid, which would have settled the bill, and asking for donations from the pool they are taking available resources from other families that may not have had the option of teh ebil guvment picking up the tab. Whether its an injury, illness, fire... whatever... people will donate to babies first, leaving others in the lurch.

The additional children bother me, because I believe you should not bring into your home things (people or animals) that you cannot afford. I'm quite sure that Jebus would "gift" me eleventy billion shelter dogs but I cannot afford them nor adequately care for them so I am happy with the ones that I have. Sometimes god DOES give you more than you can handle...

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I explained a little about the difference it makes when someone who can't afford their hospital bill refuses Medicaid earlier, but let me elaborate on this specific situation. The hospital has been carrying this bad debt for FOUR YEARS. Given the time value if money and the likelihood (nil) of actually collecting on it, they have already probably made up most of it by collecting from various government sources that attempt to compensate hospitals for uncompensated care and by hacking up their rates for the insured and people who timely self pay. Part of that cost is the great big fat waste of everyone's time that has been taking up negotiating the bill and attempting to collect. And now, these selfish assholes are threatening not to make ANY payment unless the hospital accepts it as payment in full. So tuck them. The hospital should sue them into bankruptcy or sell the debt to a collection agency that will. Let them explain to the judge why stiffing the hospital that saved their child's life is more principled than accepting Medicaid.

Also, from my recollection of tax and nonprofit law, a fundraiser for a particular person or family can never be tax deductible. And gifts are never taxable to the recipient, only to the giver and only over a certain lifetime amount (the 12K reporting rule is so that the government can track progress towards that amount, I believe). The real tax fraud going on will be if these hacksawed claim the amount paid as a deduction and get a fat refund.

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Through a google search, I came across a thread on FJ yuku from 2010. The Zimmermans were discussed mainly because Doug Phillps blogged about them back in 2009.

http://freejinger.yuku.com/topic/4023#.UV2zMRlTvBB

visionforum.com/news/blogs/doug/default.aspx?path=/2009/04/5140/

For people wanting to know more about the Zimmermans, here is their blog but it hasn't been updated in a year

zimmermanfamilyalaska.blogspot.com/

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I explained a little about the difference it makes when someone who can't afford their hospital bill refuses Medicaid earlier, but let me elaborate on this specific situation. The hospital has been carrying this bad debt for FOUR YEARS. Given the time value if money and the likelihood (nil) of actually collecting on it, they have already probably made up most of it by collecting from various government sources that attempt to compensate hospitals for uncompensated care and by hacking up their rates for the insured and people who timely self pay. Part of that cost is the great big fat waste of everyone's time that has been taking up negotiating the bill and attempting to collect. And now, these selfish assholes are threatening not to make ANY payment unless the hospital accepts it as payment in full. So tuck them. The hospital should sue them into bankruptcy or sell the debt to a collection agency that will. Let them explain to the judge why stiffing the hospital that saved their child's life is more principled than accepting Medicaid.

Also, from my recollection of tax and nonprofit law, a fundraiser for a particular person or family can never be tax deductible. And gifts are never taxable to the recipient, only to the giver and only over a certain lifetime amount (the 12K reporting rule is so that the government can track progress towards that amount, I believe). The real tax fraud going on will be if these hacksawed claim the amount paid as a deduction and get a fat refund.

Ah yes, but filing bankruptcy would require them to avail themselves of teh ebil guvment and their wicked laws.

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I think hospitals have a certain amount of "squish room" with being able to lower bills due to their own margins (they are a business, afterall) and grants they receive that are available in the way of scholarships (or whatever they call them). And it's unfortunate in this country that medical costs are so high -- nobody PLANS to have a premature baby.

But that this couple KNEW ahead of time they would be getting some pretty hefty bills and then went on to have 3 more kids and are now begging their Christian community for money they won't pay taxes on. The whole thing is just offensive in so many ways. If they were too proud to take public assistance (which they pay into as taxpayers), they should be doing other things to reduce their expenditures instead of begging people for money.

And don't forget -- these people already gleaned $51,000 during an earlier fundraiser. I guess they think it's someone else's job to pay their bills.

Hospitals and healthcare providers do have some "squish" room. Insurance companies, along with Medicare and Medicaid, typically pay contracted rates to hospitals and physicians. (some healthcare providers choose not to contract with certain insurance companies) The insurance companies' contracted fee schedules are often significantly lower than what is charged to private pay patients. You may notice a "contractual adjustment" or "provider adjustment" on your own explanation of benefits (aka EOB") - this is the amount that they are contractually bound to "write off". It cannot be passed along (or "balance billed") to the patient.

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Through a google search, I came across a thread on FJ yuku from 2010. The Zimmermans were discussed mainly because Doug Phillps blogged about them back in 2009.

http://freejinger.yuku.com/topic/4023#.UV2zMRlTvBB

visionforum.com/news/blogs/doug/default.aspx?path=/2009/04/5140/

For people wanting to know more about the Zimmermans, here is their blog but it hasn't been updated in a year

zimmermanfamilyalaska.blogspot.com/

This led me to this page preemiefoundation.com/ which has a generic URL but is named The little tait foundation for preemie aid. They have been begging on this site since 2011. It suggests this "foundation" pays the doctors directly. It also alludes to having a board, but I can't find them listed, and alludes to doing this for other infants, but only one, who passed away, is listed and no easy way to donate to its medical care is apparent.

There is a facebook page that says they are a not for profit organization. Either that is a lie or they didn't get their approval to be a not for profit. www.facebook.com/preemiefoundation

These people have been playing the begging game for a while now, with Doug Phillips and Peter Serven involved in the PR for it. IF they have spent 4 years begging and have not managed to pay the debt down, wouldn't that seem like their premise that they can just rely on godly strangers and it will all be OK>

These people have caught my eye, and not in a good way. While DeDe is crazy these people seem just so nasty to me. LIke others, I hope they end up bankrupt for their arrogance at refusing legitimate help and their hubris that God views their speshul snowflakiness so valuable that he'll send boatloads of money to them after they decline the first offer.

It is interesting that they want the benefits of modern society--good medical care--but they don't want to pony up their own money, or live within their means.

The more starving quiverful families, the faster this stupid trend will die. I hope the parents care enough to feed the kids, but if the parents are living on lawn clippings and water by this time next year, I won't feel bad about it.

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The current amount raised so far is $16,250 and they have 74 days to go. It will be interesting to see if they make it or not. Maybe there will be loving offers in Wasilla or Anchorage churches for the preemie fund.

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This led me to this page preemiefoundation.com/ which has a generic URL but is named The little tait foundation for preemie aid. They have been begging on this site since 2011. It suggests this "foundation" pays the doctors directly. It also alludes to having a board, but I can't find them listed, and alludes to doing this for other infants, but only one, who passed away, is listed and no easy way to donate to its medical care is apparent.

There is a facebook page that says they are a not for profit organization. Either that is a lie or they didn't get their approval to be a not for profit. http://www.facebook.com/preemiefoundation

These people have been playing the begging game for a while now, with Doug Phillips and Peter Serven involved in the PR for it. IF they have spent 4 years begging and have not managed to pay the debt down, wouldn't that seem like their premise that they can just rely on godly strangers and it will all be OK>

These people have caught my eye, and not in a good way. While DeDe is crazy these people seem just so nasty to me. LIke others, I hope they end up bankrupt for their arrogance at refusing legitimate help and their hubris that God views their speshul snowflakiness so valuable that he'll send boatloads of money to them after they decline the first offer.

It is interesting that they want the benefits of modern society--good medical care--but they don't want to pony up their own money, or live within their means.

The more starving quiverful families, the faster this stupid trend will die. I hope the parents care enough to feed the kids, but if the parents are living on lawn clippings and water by this time next year, I won't feel bad about it.

Salex-- Anyone you could report them to? For fraud, perhaps?

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The current amount raised so far is $16,250 and they have 74 days to go. It will be interesting to see if they make it or not. Maybe there will be loving offers in Wasilla or Anchorage churches for the preemie fund.

They're up another $1000 since yesterday. They must be getting to the right people! Amazing.

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Salex-- Anyone you could report them to? For fraud, perhaps?

How is that fraud ? They state on their blog that they raised money before to pay off the doctor bills - which were around $50,000. This latest fundraising is for the hospital bill.

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So, begging is more Christian than receiving back after you've rendered unto Caesar what is Caesar's?

:evil-eye:

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They're up another $1000 since yesterday. They must be getting to the right people! Amazing.

If they raise at $1,000 a day for the next 74 days they will meet the 100,000. They might hit slumps along the way. Not every person who comes across or learns about their site will donate. Some people like us some of us FJers would be turned off by the fact that they turned down Medicaid assistance and that they let the situation linger on for four years. I think the fact that they continued having kids while having an outstanding hospital bill will turn off people too. My cousin and his family live in Anchorage and he works as a home inspector. He travels around state as part of his job and he also does remodeling on the side for real estate companies and other people. There might be a slight chance he has worked with or knows of Tait Sr. and his dad Don. I just looked through my cousin's FB and his settings are to set only show mutual friends. I checked my cousin's likes and nothing related to Zimmermans came up. I checked Tait Sr.'s FB and my cousin isn't there. If my cousin was to hear about the Little Tait fund, I don't see him donating. He would probably have the view that they should have accepted the Medicaid years ago.

Tait Sr.'s FB page showed that he is friends with Perry Coughlan, Dougie (not surprising) and a few of the Severns. He states on his profile that he was homeschooled, he watches 19kac and his favorite movies are that Kirk Cameron doc, 180, October Baby and the Sherwood Baptist Church movies. Maybe he and Lauren should write to the Duggars, Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort for donations.

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So, begging is more Christian than receiving back after you've rendered unto Caesar what is Caesar's?

:evil-eye:

Exactly. Which is why they won't get a dime from me. I live now on social security after working 47 years, evil socialist that I am.

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Salex-- Anyone you could report them to? For fraud, perhaps?

I don't know. It is all so weird.

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Why would it be fraud? The internet is full of people asking for donations. Tait was a preemie, he had a very high hospital bill, it's not a made up story like Eli's Hoax. I think they were very unwise to turn down Medicaid, and for that reason I wouldn't donate to them. But others are free to donate if they choose.

I think it's sad anyone in this country has to turn to fundraising to pay medical bills. Hopefully this will change soon. It's annoying that these parents didn't need to turn to fundraising but I don't see fraud.

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Why would it be fraud? The internet is full of people asking for donations. Tait was a preemie, he had a very high hospital bill, it's not a made up story like Eli's Hoax. I think they were very unwise to turn down Medicaid, and for that reason I wouldn't donate to them. But others are free to donate if they choose.

I think it's sad anyone in this country has to turn to fundraising to pay medical bills. Hopefully this will change soon. It's annoying that these parents didn't need to turn to fundraising but I don't see fraud.

I think there is some confusion about the difference between the Tait Fund (which was set up as a non-profit) and their fundraising that is NOT through the Tait Fund. Their current fundraising campaign is seeking donations directly to the family, not to the foundation. It is unclear to me what the foundation is all about or why they aren't asking for donations to be directed that way -- seems like they'd be more successful, but maybe the foundation lost it's NP status for some reason?

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I think there is some confusion about the difference between the Tait Fund (which was set up as a non-profit) and their fundraising that is NOT through the Tait Fund. Their current fundraising campaign is seeking donations directly to the family, not to the foundation. It is unclear to me what the foundation is all about or why they aren't asking for donations to be directed that way -- seems like they'd be more successful, but maybe the foundation lost it's NP status for some reason?

OK, I see your point. It is confusing. Frankly, I hope they don't raise the $100,000 because it's so wrong that they turned down Medicaid.

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I think there is some confusion about the difference between the Tait Fund (which was set up as a non-profit) and their fundraising that is NOT through the Tait Fund. Their current fundraising campaign is seeking donations directly to the family, not to the foundation. It is unclear to me what the foundation is all about or why they aren't asking for donations to be directed that way -- seems like they'd be more successful, but maybe the foundation lost it's NP status for some reason?

I would bet they probably started out wanting to have non-profit status and be a foundation and all of that and then realized that it is a shit-ton of paperwork and regulations and time that really isn't manageable for most individuals.

The amount of complex paperwork involved in starting and maintaining a non-profit has increased exponentially in the last decade due to some very public charity scams.

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OK, I see your point. It is confusing. Frankly, I hope they don't raise the $100,000 because it's so wrong that they turned down Medicaid.

I agree!

And I don't know anything about setting up a non-profit organization, but the fact that they stated on their website that it was just too much trouble to do it this time made me mad. Is it really that difficult and time-consuming? They've had FOUR YEARS to think about this knowing that at some point they would need some large amount of money to settle up with the hospital. It just sounded lazy to me.

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Oh, and just as I was posting my comment above, I saw Mrs S2000's comment, so that makes more sense that they didn't set it up this time.

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If the Tait Fund was solely for the benefit of the family, it almost certainly wouldnt qualify for nonprofit status.

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Just checked the amount raised total and it is up from $16,250 to $16,950. If they keep going at the rate of lets say $700-$1500 a day, they might reach the $100,000. If they do raise that money, someone should email the Zimmermans and ask them if they would donate to another family if they did the same thing.

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