Biblical Rules: Why Do They Matter

[Lady Elaine]

I watched Steve Andersons entire video on head covering. In it he states he believes that once a person is saved they are always saved. He says that he doesn't believe in a works based salvation. Then he goes on to preach about various rules regarding clothing, head covering, hair length, etc.

 

So I posted this comment:

 

"So you don't believe in a works based salvation or that once saved a person can ever lose salvation, correct? So if a person is saved and this is a permanent condition why do all of these rules about hair, clothes, coverings and submission matter? This is a sincere question. It's something I've always wondered about."

 

No response.

 

So I thought maybe I could get one here. If you don't follow biblical rules does that mean you aren't truly "saved". Or can you indeed become "unsaved". Or are there different levels of heaven for those with better behavior?

 

Or is it all nonsense? (Yeah, that's what I lean toward.)

 

For instance, there's the Maxwells. Undoubtedly saved. And living an exceptionally righteous lifestyle to boot. Then there's my brother in law. He goes to a popular contemporary Christian chain church and professes the faith. He also loves tattoos, vodka, sex, swearing, porn and general raunchiness. And posts about his love for such things prolifically on facebook. Everyday. Are they both going to heaven?

 

If so.... Maxwells and friends.... why don't you give it up and have some fun?!?!

[yewchapel]

:D

'Sola fidei' ('by faith alone') Christians like PP absolutely believe in works, they just don't admit it. They turn faith into a work! The principle of faith and works doesn't exclude faith, or being saved by grace. It just means that instead of worrying about whether you have enough faith, there's things you can do to help your own faith such as doing good works or attending Mass or whatever.

And as a universalist, I do actually believe that both the Maxwells and your brother-in-law are going to Heaven - but I suspect Stevehovah will spend a lot longer in Purgatory before getting to Heaven.

[punkiepie]

Matthew 7:20 "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."

If you are truly saved, your fruits- or works- will be evidence. You will be wanting and working to change for the better. It's one of the more damaging things about this kind of fundie- because it makes you constantly doubt your salvation.

[ILoveJellybeans]

Sooooooooo once youre saved you can go out and do anything-drink, smoke, have gay sex with anything that moves, watch porn and masturbate in public, set things on fire, do crack, shoplift, have loads of abortions, walk around naked, kick babies and eat kittens?

If that was true, why are people still listening to his preaching tantrums every week instead of out running naked through the streets and gleaning penguins from the zoo cause theyre already saved and cant go to hell.

Does that mean that if a serial killer got saved, but then started killing and eating peoples livers he wouldnt go to hell?

Is that why hes doing his best to gain a free cavity search, cause he knows he is already saved?

I think what he really means is "Dont try and be more holy than us, youre already saved and dont need to obey those rules...but dont be gay or anything cause that doesnt count"

[Lady Elaine]

Sooooooooo once youre saved you can go out and do anything-drink, smoke, have gay sex with anything that moves, watch porn and masturbate in public, set things on fire, do crack, shoplift, have loads of abortions, walk around naked, kick babies and eat kittens?

If that was true, why are people still listening to his preaching tantrums every week instead of out running naked through the streets and gleaning penguins from the zoo cause theyre already saved and cant go to hell.

Does that mean that if a serial killer got saved, but then started killing and eating peoples livers he wouldnt go to hell?

Is that why hes doing his best to gain a free cavity search, cause he knows he is already saved?

I think what he really means is "Dont try and be more holy than us, youre already saved and dont need to obey those rules...but dont be gay or anything cause that doesnt count"

Yeah I know. Stuff like this is why I don't do Christianity anymore. You could be a totally awesome person all your life. Not perfect, but really nice, you know... helping people, being kind, etc. etc. .... but decide at the end of your life that this Jesus stuff just doesn't make sense. You deny it. Well, straight to HELL with you!!!!

But you could be a horrible serial killer, rapist, cannibal, whatever and then get "saved" at the end and all of a sudden you're dancing with Jesus.

Or according to people like PP you can get saved, then live poorly, but you're still saved because you can never be un-saved. No way! Sorta... kinda.... just don't do this, this and this for some reason....

Oh, it makes no sense.

[louisa05]

I've heard the once-saved-always-saved crowd explain that people who "sin" (according to their rules) after "being saved" probably were not "truly" saved in the first place.

Then there are the Calvinists, where following all the rules is what proves that you are one of the elect.

[Lady Elaine]

I've heard the once-saved-always-saved crowd explain that people who "sin" (according to their rules) after "being saved" probably were not "truly" saved in the first place.

Then there are the Calvinists, where following all the rules is what proves that you are one of the elect.

That's interesting because during the headcovering sermon PP denounces Calvinism. Then he goes on to preach about various Christian rules. Sometimes I think he's just making it up as he goes along.

[TinyDancer87]

I think part of becoming "saved" is accepting Christ... and his Word. Word=Bible. Bible=many rules (some rules about loving others, and some about silly things like shrimp and clothing).

Any normal person who becomes saved will feel "convictions" to live a certain life. This means, maybe cutting back drinking excessively, or looking at porn, because the Bible warns about the addictive and destructive outcomes.

Non-normal people, extremists and fundies, will follow EVERY frickin rule in the Bible because they are Saved and Convicted by the Lord. And they try to push such rules on others, because "that's how true Christians live!" (Gah all this Christenese is so hard to type!)

I don't follow the rules strictly, and I change my life according to what speaks to me- my moral compass, my spirit, God's spirit- what have you. I find that being open to change and not so rule-stricken allows me to love more.

[rward]

Any normal person who becomes saved will feel "convictions" to live a certain life. This means, maybe cutting back drinking excessively, or looking at porn, because the Bible warns about the addictive and destructive outcomes.

Why, because atheists can't see the potential for addiction and destructive outcomes in excessive drinking? :roll:

[nolongerIFBx]

I watched Steve Andersons entire video on head covering. In it he states he believes that once a person is saved they are always saved. He says that he doesn't believe in a works based salvation. Then he goes on to preach about various rules regarding clothing, head covering, hair length, etc.

So I posted this comment:

"So you don't believe in a works based salvation or that once saved a person can ever lose salvation, correct? So if a person is saved and this is a permanent condition why do all of these rules about hair, clothes, coverings and submission matter? This is a sincere question. It's something I've always wondered about."

No response.

So I thought maybe I could get one here. If you don't follow biblical rules does that mean you aren't truly "saved". Or can you indeed become "unsaved". Or are there different levels of heaven for those with better behavior?

Or is it all nonsense? (Yeah, that's what I lean toward.)

For instance, there's the Maxwells. Undoubtedly saved. And living an exceptionally righteous lifestyle to boot. Then there's my brother in law. He goes to a popular contemporary Christian chain church and professes the faith. He also loves tattoos, vodka, sex, swearing, porn and general raunchiness. And posts about his love for such things prolifically on facebook. Everyday. Are they both going to heaven?

If so.... Maxwells and friends.... why don't you give it up and have some fun?!?!

A sincere question was asked; this is a sincere answer.

In theory, yes, both are going to heaven. The only requirements for entrance into heaven is accepting that because of your sin you are deserving of hell and accepting that Jesus' death on the cross was payment for your sins. Nothing further is required for entrance into heaven. If both have done that, they are both equally going to heaven. IMO, the answer to your question is that when you have accepted Christ as your Savior, you want to live a life that is pleasing to Him. Romans even says that when you commit a lot of sins, He has to have more grace on you. "but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more" Romans 5:20. But then the question is asked, "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means!" Romans 6: 1-2. In essence, just because we can still sin and still be saved doesn't mean that we should. You cannot become unsaved, but when the Holy Spirit lives in you, there is a part of you (the new creation) that no longer wants to do wrong. There is however a part of you that does (the old man). Maybe your B-I-L lets "the old man" have more control over his life. Maybe he just doesn't see what he does as wrong*. One thing I do know is that "vodka, sex, swearing, porn and general raunchiness" are easy sins to see and things like pride, envy, and hate are easy to cover up. I would suspect that these are present in the "exceptionally righteous" Maxwells (I know they are in me!). Both are wrong.

Why do they matter? Because the Andersons want to build up the "new creation" rather than the "old man". "For those who live according to the flesh [old man]set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit [new creation] set their minds on the things of the Spirit. . . to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace" Romans 8:5-6

*Here's where I am going to differ from many of the fundies that we snark on. Many of the things that they consider sin to keep away from in order to build up the "new creation" may be things that they personally need to not do. That's between them and God. If they feel God does not want their women to wear pants, that's great. They shouldn't wear pants. But they overstep their bounds when they make the automatic assumption that because they feel that God does not want them to wear pants that God must not want any women to wear pants.

Anyway, that would be my response if you asked me the same question you asked SA.

[NjoyingNsanity]

See it's things like this that made me just say "I can't do this anymore." with Christianity. I had so many questions I could never get a clear, cohesive answer to that I just gave up on trying to believe any of it. The Christian god just gives me a massive headache he's all loving and merciful, but orders the deaths of scores of innocent women and children throughout the old testament. Jesus sounds like a guy I could like, but his daddy sounds like a freaking sociopath. How can you be one god when you claim to be a trinity? If heaven was so great what made Lucifer and a good sized chunk of the other angels decide to rebel? Why didn't God just destroy Lucifer? If God was all-knowing and can see the future why in the hell did he create Lucifer in the first place? So God has already had one rebellion on his hands who's to say we get to heaven and it doesn't happen again? As a parent I love my kids more than life itself, and I could never ever sentence them to eternal torment for something as small as a lie, pre-martial sex or being gay, so how can I serve a god who has less of a capacity for compassion and mercy as I do? If I as the supposedly flawed human can say no one deserves that forever why can't he? How can he call himself righteous if he has such a capacity for punishments that far outweigh the crime? If what Jesus did on the cross really wiped out all sin, why is it contingent on my belief in it for it to cover me? If it really held as much power as Christians say why not just make it a universal cure all for sin? I could go on forever with these questions, but I think you guys get the point.

[klf7412]

I watched Steve Andersons entire video on head covering. In it he states he believes that once a person is saved they are always saved. He says that he doesn't believe in a works based salvation. Then he goes on to preach about various rules regarding clothing, head covering, hair length, etc.

So I posted this comment:

"So you don't believe in a works based salvation or that once saved a person can ever lose salvation, correct? So if a person is saved and this is a permanent condition why do all of these rules about hair, clothes, coverings and submission matter? This is a sincere question. It's something I've always wondered about."

No response.

So I thought maybe I could get one here. If you don't follow biblical rules does that mean you aren't truly "saved". Or can you indeed become "unsaved". Or are there different levels of heaven for those with better behavior?

Or is it all nonsense? (Yeah, that's what I lean toward.)

For instance, there's the Maxwells. Undoubtedly saved. And living an exceptionally righteous lifestyle to boot. Then there's my brother in law. He goes to a popular contemporary Christian chain church and professes the faith. He also loves tattoos, vodka, sex, swearing, porn and general raunchiness. And posts about his love for such things prolifically on facebook. Everyday. Are they both going to heaven?

If so.... Maxwells and friends.... why don't you give it up and have some fun?!?!

As a christian, I find most "biblical rules" to be really stupid. I am very pro gay marriage, don't give a rats patootey how long your hair is, etc.

To the bolded paragraph-- i'd say they are both going to heaven...

I don't know what I think about whether or not you can lose your salvation. I think I lean towards it being a "case by case" basis. I mean, if salvation is truly just believing that Jesus died on the cross for you sins, then, if you stop believing that, your unsaved, right?? But then again, I believe that even non-christians go to heaven, so I don't have the typical christian response. :)

[yewchapel]

NjoyingNsanity - not all Christians believe in eternal damnation. I believe in Purgatory/punishment for those who do really deserve it (like, you know, the Pearls who advocate child abuse in God's name) but it is not permanent and I believe that eventually everyone will be reconciled with God. Not saying this to change your mind, just to say that Hell isn't part of every Christian's belief.

[anniebgood]

I believe that even the vilest of vile who dies with the name of Christ on his/her lips is going to heaven. It may take a bit for the journey to be complete but that is up to God who drives the bus.

The paradigm shift for me came when the thieves taunted Christ on the cross and he said to the one, today you will be with me in paradise. That kind of blows the 3 days in hell thing out of the water. Of course who is to say how long those days are?

I celebrate Easter even though I know that chocolate bunnies and jelly beans have nothing to do with it. It's the darkness in the church that is overcome by the light of the Resurrection and the announcement that He is Risen, He is Risen Indeed Alleluia. (And I frigging hate Easter Lilies because they make my allergies go nuts).

[snackle]

I've heard the once-saved-always-saved crowd explain that people who "sin" (according to their rules) after "being saved" probably were not "truly" saved in the first place.

This is what I've heard, too. Salvation is something that happens in your heart, and once it happens, it can't go away. But, if you don't follow the rules, you were never really saved, no matter how much you shared your testimony.

You can be saved despite all your evil past transgressions. Well, except if that sin happens to be disbelief. Then you're screwed. I had a conversation with a fundamentalist minister over that very topic where he basically agreed with that assessment but still clung to the idea that everything can be forgiven. Even though he was telling me that disbelief couldn't be forgiven. Also, that Catholics are wrong because they believe in mortal sins, and protestants don't, because nothing condemns you to hell once you're saved. Except for not believing.

I was already on my way to abandoning my previously sincere attempt to believe, and he helped push me down the road into atheism. I just couldn't handle the cognitive dissonance.

[latraviata]

See it's things like this that made me just say "I can't do this anymore." with Christianity. I had so many questions I could never get a clear, cohesive answer to that I just gave up on trying to believe any of it. The Christian god just gives me a massive headache he's all loving and merciful, but orders the deaths of scores of innocent women and children throughout the old testament. Jesus sounds like a guy I could like, but his daddy sounds like a freaking sociopath. How can you be one god when you claim to be a trinity? If heaven was so great what made Lucifer and a good sized chunk of the other angels decide to rebel? Why didn't God just destroy Lucifer? If God was all-knowing and can see the future why in the hell did he create Lucifer in the first place? So God has already had one rebellion on his hands who's to say we get to heaven and it doesn't happen again? As a parent I love my kids more than life itself, and I could never ever sentence them to eternal torment for something as small as a lie, pre-martial sex or being gay, so how can I serve a god who has less of a capacity for compassion and mercy as I do? If I as the supposedly flawed human can say no one deserves that forever why can't he? How can he call himself righteous if he has such a capacity for punishments that far outweigh the crime? If what Jesus did on the cross really wiped out all sin, why is it contingent on my belief in it for it to cover me? If it really held as much power as Christians say why not just make it a universal cure all for sin? I could go on forever with these questions, but I think you guys get the point.

Because religion is created by man and as far as I understand, you are well on your way to atheism and rightly so.

[NjoyingNsanity]

NjoyingNsanity - not all Christians believe in eternal damnation. I believe in Purgatory/punishment for those who do really deserve it (like, you know, the Pearls who advocate child abuse in God's name) but it is not permanent and I believe that eventually everyone will be reconciled with God. Not saying this to change your mind, just to say that Hell isn't part of every Christian's belief.

Now Purgatory at least makes a little more sense than burning in hell forever x infinity, but then reincarnation makes allot of sense to me too, because you keep coming back till you get it right. I'm weird when it comes to religion it would be hard for me to define exactly what my personal beliefs are I'm a Norse Pagan in that my patron god is Loki(and no NOT the Marvel version) but I also was raised Christian and still agree with some of the things Jesus said, but have serious issues with the rest of the Bible. I also tend to believe in reincarnation, certain tenants of Wicca and Native American religions. I tend to pick and choose the things that makes sense to me or feel right to me, and that makes me a religious Heinz 57 I know, but it works for me.

[AVENues]

Why, because atheists can't see the potential for addiction and destructive outcomes in excessive drinking? :roll:

Problem is, many Christians do talk the talk but don't walk the walk. They are closet-whatevers while having the mask of holiness on. :( The problem with the biblical values is, that people tend to only stick by and carry out the destructive and dangerous ones. I don't know why. Like they use the Bible as their means to carry out deeds like never sparing the rod or making the wife submissive.

[nolongerIFBx]

Problem is, many Christians do talk the talk but don't walk the walk. They are closet-whatevers while having the mask of holiness on. :( The problem with the biblical values is, that people tend to only stick by and carry out the destructive and dangerous ones. I don't know why. Like they use the Bible as their means to carry out deeds like never sparing the rod or making the wife submissive.

AVENues- note that this is your 666th post. Oooooohhhhh!

[FeministShrew]

I'm so glad I no longer view the bible as an inspired holy book, so I don't have to worry about which rules to obey & which ones to ignore. For the first time in my life I'm free & happy! :D :dance: