Apparently, Christian "Bar Mitzvahs" are a thing now....

[August]

Unitarian Universalist

Recovering theists, or church addicted atheists.

[yewchapel]

Really? Here in Germany the Catholics have holy communion at around 9 years old and then "Firmung" at 13 years old. Well okay, that means confirmation when you translate it, but only the protestant/evangelical church has a "Konfirmation", which also means confirmation, but it's about a year later.

Well...what I wanted to say is: Those are two different things in German and it's not (specifically) a Catholic thing.

Sorry, I was actually being sarcastic! I know not only Catholics have confirmation :) By Protestant, you mean Lutheran right? To the people who are doing the fake bar mitzvahs, Lutherans aren't Protestant 'enough'.

[Hane]

Recovering theists, or church addicted atheists.

As a member of the UU by choice--not by birth--I find your "definition" both inaccurate and offensive.

[oil]

I agree with MamaJuneBug, it's a lack of ritual in their own religion that has led them to adopt Jewish ritual. There seems to be a human need for ritual as part of a spiritual experience. As they've rejected the usual Christian rituals and aren't bright enough to come up with their own, they appropriate the "Biblical" Jewish rites. Of course, Christians have been doing this for millenia- many RC rituals are Christianized versions of pagan rites.

I think it's odd for christians to use Jewish rituals, but do you really think they "aren't bright enough to come up with their own"? Maybe Jewish rituals are beautiful and that's why they choose them. I don't believe it's because they "aren't bright enough". I'm an observant Jew and I wonder why it so much bothers so many who are atheists or other religions. Why to care??

[yewchapel]

I think it's odd for christians to use Jewish rituals, but do you really think they "aren't bright enough to come up with their own"? Maybe Jewish rituals are beautiful and that's why they choose them. I don't believe it's because they "aren't bright enough". I'm an observant Jew and I wonder why it so much bothers so many who are atheists or other religions. Why to care??

Because they're not Jewish. It's inappropriate.

[lagenialester]

I think it's odd for christians to use Jewish rituals, but do you really think they "aren't bright enough to come up with their own"? Maybe Jewish rituals are beautiful and that's why they choose them. I don't believe it's because they "aren't bright enough". I'm an observant Jew and I wonder why it so much bothers so many who are atheists or other religions. Why to care??

I'm an observant Jew too, and I also find it nice that people can see the beauty in our rituals; however I really am bothered by all of this cultural appropriation. I think it's based on two things:

1) I've noticed that a lot of their adaptations of our rituals really take away from the meaning of the ritual itself. It's as if they didn't actually research why certain things are done, or they simply chose to ignore the finer details of things. (Ex: The real reason why we become a bar/bat mitzvah) I feel as though some of these people haven't even met a Jew before. (This may be a result of growing up in a super Christian town where I was once asked if I had horns because people really didn't know anything about Jews.)

2) Our ancestors have been persecuted for performing these very mitzvot, a lot of times by Christians. There is a spiritual connection that I have when doing these rituals that connects me to my people. It is something that makes the tradition even more beautiful for me. Jews have been killed for being Jewish and standing up for their beliefs, and now this cultural appropriation movement is almost making it seem like it's "fun" or "trendy" to do all of these things.

It's important to note that many of these people also use our rituals in an attempt to "spread the word" to Jews. So they're using our traditions to tell us that we are wrong and therefore condemned to hell unless we repent.

Yes, it's flattering that people find our traditions beautiful, I know I do; however it's the intent behind their actions that makes me uncomfortable.

[oil]

Because they're not Jewish. It's inappropriate.

I was going to answer to this as being a mindless answer, but then I read the next quote and it's explain it clearly not mindless to me. >>

I'm an observant Jew too, and I also find it nice that people can see the beauty in our rituals; however I really am bothered by all of this cultural appropriation. I think it's based on two things:

1) I've noticed that a lot of their adaptations of our rituals really take away from the meaning of the ritual itself. It's as if they didn't actually research why certain things are done, or they simply chose to ignore the finer details of things. (Ex: The real reason why we become a bar/bat mitzvah) I feel as though some of these people haven't even met a Jew before. (This may be a result of growing up in a super Christian town where I was once asked if I had horns because people really didn't know anything about Jews.)

2) Our ancestors have been persecuted for performing these very mitzvot, a lot of times by Christians. There is a spiritual connection that I have when doing these rituals that connects me to my people. It is something that makes the tradition even more beautiful for me. Jews have been killed for being Jewish and standing up for their beliefs, and now this cultural appropriation movement is almost making it seem like it's "fun" or "trendy" to do all of these things.

It's important to note that many of these people also use our rituals in an attempt to "spread the word" to Jews. So they're using our traditions to tell us that we are wrong and therefore condemned to hell unless we repent.

Yes, it's flattering that people find our traditions beautiful, I know I do; however it's the intent behind their actions that makes me uncomfortable.

Thank you, I understand so well now.

[France Nolan]

I think this also serves to highlight the schism between Protestant sects. Where I live Roman Catholicism and Judaism are the two most popular religions. Growing up my Catholic friends thought all Protestant denominations were the same. When they came to my ELCA Lutheran church they were shocked to find that they recognized much of went on during the service since it is so similar to a Catholic mass (obviously there are major theological differences and liturgical ones, but the formatting is still very much the same).

I was communed at 10 and confirmed at 14. This was much later than my Catholic friends, and the process was more rigorous. We spent several years in weekly classes studying the Bible and Luther's catechism. It was the bane of my existence.

I don't understand what fundies object to with confirmation. Even if they wanted to call it something else, they could still manage to have a confirmation for their children without appropriating Jewish traditions.

[stacyf]

Congregationalist here, I was baptized as an infant and confirmed when I was in 8th grade. My nephews who are in 8th and 9th grade are going through their confirmations right now.

[Buzzard]

I was going to answer to this as being a mindless answer, but then I read the next quote and it's explain it clearly not mindless to me. >>

Thank you, I understand so well now.

I also see a lot of it as a "you're doing it wrong" type thing. Its not just the adoption of time honored traditions but the major modification of them. I know of a church around here that encouraged the purchase of Mezuzot (from them, of course) with "kosher" scrolls containing the Lords Prayer (in hebrew) to be hung on exterior and interior doors. They hung them willy nilly in any which direction, side of the door etc, completely missing the commandment of WHAT should be written on the scroll and the whole point of it. When asked why they paid $300/each the response was "pastor said its commanded." Yes, except that... YOU are doing it wrong...

[Irishy]

Communion here is age 8. Used to be 7 but they raised it to 8 as most 7 year olds (myself included) didn't have a notion if what is was all about. My son is making his first communion next month and it's a big moment for him. Whatever I may think of it, he's been preparing in school for about a year and he's really excited. He views it as just getting to know God and spirituality a bit better and examining his conscience a bit more through the first reconciliation business. It's been harmless at worst. We will have a big party. Mostly to celebrate his general awesomeness and it'll be a special party just for him. The party of parties in his childhood and one he'll never forget. He will likely receive a pile of money and afterwards he will (through school) donate a chunk of that to a charity. It's very much a cultural thing here.

Confirmation is age 12.

[Lady]

Sorry, I was actually being sarcastic! I know not only Catholics have confirmation :) By Protestant, you mean Lutheran right? To the people who are doing the fake bar mitzvahs, Lutherans aren't Protestant 'enough'.

Seriously? Luther began the Reformation and by extension the Protestant movement...but Lutherans aren't Protestant enough? :doh:

[lilwriter85]

It seems odd to me that the article picks up on Quinceaneras when a lot of latin@ teens would have had a confirmation too? A quinceanera isn't a religious rite so I don't understand why they used a religious rite (the bar mitzvah)? Just throw a party, geez.

Quinceaneras sometimes have religious elements especially with Catholics. Some quinceneara celebrations include Catholic Masses or the priest attends the party and gives a blessing. Not all Latino communities do quincenearas. Some of the oldest Hispanic communities in the United States don't do the quinceanera tradition that much or not at all. For example, the Hispano/Nuevomexicano communities in Northern New Mexico never adopted certain rites of passage that other Hispanic/Latino communities have in the U.S. and in other countries. Once in a blue moon, a New Mexico Hispanco family will have a quince. The Hispano Catholics of Northern New Mexico sometimes make a big deal for confirmations, but most Hispanos in New Mexico only do celebrations for educational milestones like high school graduations, college, etc.

[yewchapel]

Well, no. Lutherans have vestments and a liturgical calendar and don't believe in a strictly memorialist interpretation of Holy Communion. To the kind of evangelicals engaging in fake-Jewish stuff, those are Catholic things, and are either not understood or are considered heretical.

Edited to add that this is in reply to Lady.

[oil]

I know of a church around here that encouraged the purchase of Mezuzot (from them, of course) with "kosher" scrolls containing the Lords Prayer (in hebrew) to be hung on exterior and interior doors. They hung them willy nilly in any which direction, side of the door etc, completely missing the commandment of WHAT should be written on the scroll and the whole point of it.

I'm Sabra Tel Avivim, the Israeli people who are the most tolerant and not worrying about what any one else likes to do, but this disrespect of Mezuzot makes my blood very very hot. Maybe atheists will say I'm crazy to have fever from a misuse of an object, but it is my belief and tradition, not worship of an idol thing.

Any way, I'm afraid here because maybe my tolerant will go away after I learn more about the fundy Christian Jews. I'm to read more about these people.

[yewchapel]

Quinceaneras sometimes have religious elements especially with Catholics. Some quinceneara celebrations include Catholic Masses or the priest attends the party and gives a blessing. Not all Latino communities do quincenearas. Some of the oldest Hispanic communities in the United States don't do the quinceanera tradition that much or not at all. For example, the Hispano/Nuevomexicano communities in Northern New Mexico never adopted certain rites of passage that other Hispanic/Latino communities have in the U.S. and in other countries. Once in a blue moon, a New Mexico Hispanco family will have a quince. The Hispano Catholics of Northern New Mexico sometimes make a big deal for confirmations, but most Hispanos in New Mexico only do celebrations for educational milestones like high school graduations, college, etc.

Thank you for the information!

[Buzzard]

I'm Sabra Tel Avivim, the Israeli people who are the most tolerant and not worrying about what any one else likes to do, but this disrespect of Mezuzot makes my blood very very hot. Maybe atheists will say I'm crazy to have fever from a misuse of an object, but it is my belief and tradition, not worship of an idol thing.

Any way, I'm afraid here because maybe my tolerant will go away after I learn more about the fundy Christian Jews. I'm to read more about these people.

Welcome to FJ, where you will see things that you wish you could unsee yet must be seen. And with that warning... I give you my personal favorite douchebag, Ralph Messer. I warn you... if the Mezuzot makes you angry, this will make you cry.

http://www.freejinger.org/forums/viewto ... f=8&t=7377

AVkoQHCXSK8

[Ralar]

Just ran across this article from the New York Times. It discusses the emerging trend of fundamentalist Christians appropriating Jewish traditions and symbology to throw "bar mitzvah" celebrations for their sons. An excerpt:

I don't even know what to say, except that this just infuriates me for all of the reasons discussed on other threads about faux Jews. Get your own frigging rituals and rites of passage, people. And besides, why not just use confirmation, which is an actual thing in a variety of Christian denominations? The idea of some Pentecostal kid getting up to the altar in a tallit, probably with no idea of just how incredibly offensive he's being (because it's not like his parents would tell him), just infuriates me. As for Rabbi Pearlson, who seems to be cool with this kind of thing (and praises Hagee and his ilk in their own appropriation of Judaica), he ought to be ashamed of himself. I wouldn't attend the synagogue or trust the halachic decisions of a rabbi who kept those kinds of ties with fundamentalist Christians. Not on a bet.

Eliot Perlson and I grew up not far from one another. We have overlapping social circles and many mutual friends. I've heard noting but good things about him.

[Ralar]

Call me crazy, but in my ELCA Lutheran church we were confirmed and called it a day. I wouldn't expect to see a Jewish kid confirmed nor would I expect to see a Christian kid with a bar mitzvah.

In many Conservative and Reform synagogues Jewish teens are confirmed around age 15 or 16. The ceremony is usually on Shavout, the holy day commemorating the giving of the 10 Commandments. I'm not into confirmations.

[Mama Mia]

It seems odd to me that the article picks up on Quinceaneras when a lot of latin@ teens would have had a confirmation too? A quinceanera isn't a religious rite so I don't understand why they used a religious rite (the bar mitzvah)? Just throw a party, geez.

Quinceaneras often have a religious component, and they are really more than just another party.

I can see why they would want to come up with a similar coming of age event for young men, especially in areas where Quinceaneras are very popular.

I love a great deal of the ritual and meaning behind Jewish ceremonies and understand the attraction from that standpoint. When I was growing up my parents best friends were Jewish, so we got to participate in celebrations sometimes and I really enjoyed it.

The part that bothers me about the fundamentalists who appropriate Jewish ceremonies is that I think the underlying reason they do it is because it ( to them ) emphasizes the Old Testament, fear God or you'll be damned aspects of the Bible that they feel the new testament is missing, with it's pesky insistence on tolerance and loving your neighbor. I think it is a way for them to say "Hey, yes we love Jesus, but hey .... don't forget the Old Testament with all of the striking down and smiting and an angry, testing God !"

I'm not at all saying that is what is meant by any of the Jewish rituals they emulate -- I just think that is the underlying motivation, is to include the Old Testament as just as important, without coming out and saying it.

I have zero proof of this, just my gut feeling based on how the fundamentalists really, really like the less than kind portions of the Bible.

[oil]

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=7377

AVkoQHCXSK8

Oh G-d, what do they mean? They use the Torah like that to wrap the guy in it???? No respect they show to Jews. Leave us alone with our Torah. We don't take the cross and make it a Jewish thing. I respect Christians ( not the robot fundy), and I think even my Christian and Muslim friends will spit on them for this. Sad what that man did with the holy scroll. :(

I am observant, but not orthodox, and so I am not very religious, but the Torah scroll is holy to us and it hurts to see it like a bastard use. No respect to us. I can imagine what the Orthodox and Charedi feel like if they see this. Just like Christians would be fevered if we took the cross and put Moishe on it.

[Diana]

Here communion is done at 9-10 years old, and confirmation with 15-18. The first communion is usually a big celebration with a party an all but is more cultural than religious thing thought.

I understad why this thing of appropriating someones rituals is disturbing to you. But most religions and cults have come from borrowing ideas and traditions from others, just like the christian christmas come from pagan celebrations, so if they want to do it and believe in that, why not? and at least Jesus was a jewish himself so is not that weird.

[pookel]

As a member of the UU by choice--not by birth--I find your "definition" both inaccurate and offensive.

As a child and grandchild of UU members, I find it hilarious (and my late grandma would have, too). Right up there with the jokes about the holy symbol of UU being the coffeepot.

[Hane]

As a child and grandchild of UU members, I find it hilarious (and my late grandma would have, too). Right up there with the jokes about the holy symbol of UU being the coffeepot.

Yeah, but, pookel, we get to make fun of ourselves--the coffeepot joke is our joke to make.

On a less contentious note:

Back around 1950, my very Baptist aunt and her fallen-off Catholic husband bought a house that had been owned by a Jewish family. There was a mezuzah mounted by the front door, and my aunt insisted on leaving it there, out of respect to the other family and their beliefs. I thought that was sensitive and touching.

[sheltonLE]

Sorry, I was actually being sarcastic! I know not only Catholics have confirmation :) By Protestant, you mean Lutheran right? To the people who are doing the fake bar mitzvahs, Lutherans aren't Protestant 'enough'.

Oh, okay. :) By Protestant, I mean this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelic ... in_Germany . The correct term in Germany would be "evangelisch", but evangelical is not really what it means. I guess Lutheran could be an edaquate translation. Thanks!