Eric Holder: Homeschool family political asylum (MERGED)

[Patsy]

I'm not anti-homeschooling and I think they're idiots. It's like... I heard that in the U.S., you can't buy syringes or needles without a prescription. If that's true, I think it's dumb, but I'd be angered by an American seeking asylum to buy syringes wholesale in Aus.

[FreeJosie]

Ugh. My fundie fb friends are posting this story with the "Obama is deporting a HS family!! RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION!1!!"

Annoying as hell.

I was just waiting for it to be Obama's fault! "OMG HE'S GOING TO BAN HOMESCHOOLING IN THE US TOO!"

[yewchapel]

I did not know that they could just move to Austria and have the right to homeschool. The move across the border would seem much easier than moving to the United States.

nogreaterjoy.org/articles/post-nazi-germany/

I wonder if this is the same family? If so, there might be more at play than a desire to homeschool. Is spanking illegal in Germany? Is it illegal to be a Mennonite in Germany? It worries me that they are in contact with the Pearls. To be fair, contact does not mean that they agree with the Pearls

The German constitution of 1949 guarantees religious freedom, and according to Wikipedia there are 39,414 Mennonites so I'm assuming it's not illegal. Spanking however has been illegal in Germany since 2000.

As for German-speaking Mennonites in the US, I'd imagine they spoke Old German and not the modern language.

[snackle]

I asked a German friend of mine. School attendance is mandatory, but homeschooling is not technically illegal. You can do both; you just can't skip school. She further said that school is literally only from 9-11:30 in most cases (kids have to go home to a hot meal prepared by mom). So, you have all day to do whatever you want. No sympathy to this family, especially when their EU citizenship meant they could literally move a 30 minute drive away and homeschool with abandon.

It's not religious persecution to have secular school. It really isn't. Teach whatever religion you want at home. Pray in your head during class. No one is forcing you not to believe or practice. Just, you know, learn science.

Yes, patsy, needles are prescription only. Wouldn't want drug users to have clean needles!

[Widget]

I asked a German friend of mine. School attendance is mandatory, but homeschooling is not technically illegal. You can do both; you just can't skip school. She further said that school is literally only from 9-11:30 in most cases (kids have to go home to a hot meal prepared by mom). So, you have all day to do whatever you want. No sympathy to this family, especially when their EU citizenship meant they could literally move a 30 minute drive away and homeschool with abandon.

It's not religious persecution to have secular school. It really isn't. Teach whatever religion you want at home. Pray in your head during class. No one is forcing you not to believe or practice. Just, you know, learn science.

Yes, patsy, needles are prescription only. Wouldn't want drug users to have clean needles!

Depends on the state. In a majority of states it is legal to buy without a prescription. Most pharmacies won't actually sell them, but it's not the law stopping them.

Virtually everyone I know (diabetic or otherwise) with need of syringes just buys online where they are cheaper and no one asks questions.

[DarkAnts]

The US immigration system is messed up and while the argument behind this application may not be so convincing, I think the family should be allowed to stay. The US needs to move away from the "Deport all the foreigners!!!" mentality.

HSLDA is taking it on because they don't have much to do anymore. They used to fight restrictions on homeschooling; now just about anyone who wants to can homeschool legally and there's less need for them.

I say deport them because they were stupid. They moved here instead of moving some place in the EU that would allow them to homeschool. They made this decision and should face the consequences.

The US is not deporting all foreigners anymore. They mostly deport people with a criminal record. Its more effective and cost less money.

[Childless]

I say deport them. It's obvious they did this out of a need to cry presecution. If they were truly upset because they could not homeschool and just wanted to be able to do it, they would have moved to Austria. It was an easier move, the culture is similar, the language is the same, and it would not have cost as much money. They decided to apply for asylum and come to the U.S. so they could make a big stink about how persecuted they are as Christians. It's all about publicity and getting their names in the news. It's not about homeschooling. Asylum is for people who are in danger physically or who are being denied their rights as human beings. It's not to be used by people who disagree with this law or that law in their home country. Otherwise, we'd have half the planet trying to immigrate here because they have a beef with domestic legislation.

What's next? People from Canada claiming asylum because they disagree with universal healthcare? People from the UK claiming asylum because they can't own assult weapons? Where does it end?

[Flossie]

The US is not deporting all foreigners anymore. They mostly deport people with a criminal record. Its more effective and cost less money.

Not necessarily: http://www.pri.org/stories/politics-soc ... 12340.html

I don't think the link needs to be broken, please let me know if I'm wrong.

[latraviata]

While I positively roll my eyes at the "we're persecuted!!!" angle from the family in question, I do personally understand what a disruption it is to move. Of course, moving in our case involved the children changing schools, but even without that, there are 1) a new job for at least one partner 2) leaving friends 3) making new social contacts 4) THE EXPENSE!! and the hassle of selling a house, buying a new one and hiring a moving company. (and all our moves were within the state)

Oh come on it isn't that bad. What about diplomats children, they are often dragged from pillar to post. Both my children were fine with that and they experienced it as very adventurous, exciting and they can easily adapt to various situations.

[longskirts]

I say deport them because they were stupid. They moved here instead of moving some place in the EU that would allow them to homeschool. They made this decision and should face the consequences.

The US is not deporting all foreigners anymore. They mostly deport people with a criminal record. Its more effective and cost less money.

Well if that's true and these parents don't have a criminal record, why deport them?

Yes, they could have stayed in Europe, but why should they have to? I don't see how the similar culture is a reason to send them back. Unless we think people from different cultures should have to stick with their own kind. Not an attitude I'm comfortable with.

As for crying persecution, this persecution stuff wouldn't be in the news if the US government didn't challenge their appeal and hassle them the way it hassles anyone who tries to follow procedures to move here legally.

[flyaway]

I asked a German friend of mine. School attendance is mandatory, but homeschooling is not technically illegal. You can do both; you just can't skip school. She further said that school is literally only from 9-11:30 in most cases (kids have to go home to a hot meal prepared by mom). So, you have all day to do whatever you want. No sympathy to this family, especially when their EU citizenship meant they could literally move a 30 minute drive away and homeschool with abandon.

9 to 11:30 is a bit of an exaggeration, but their school day is shorter than in the US. Obviously it varies greatly. But I'd say getting out at 1 is more than norm. Then you go home and have your big hot lunch. Sometimes in the older grades, though, there is stuff after lunch -- usually special subjects that you only have once or twice a week. (I'm American but was an exchange student in Germany for a year and spent other time living there as an adult.)

[debrand]

9 to 11:30 is a bit of an exaggeration, but their school day is shorter than in the US. Obviously it varies greatly. But I'd say getting out at 1 is more than norm. Then you go home and have your big hot lunch. Sometimes in the older grades, though, there is stuff after lunch -- usually special subjects that you only have once or twice a week. (I'm American but was an exchange student in Germany for a year and spent other time living there as an adult.)

warning OT

Okay, this is boggling my mind a bit. How does Germany have a shorter work day than American students but still out perform the United States on tests?

[yewchapel]

Pretty sure kids start school at 6yo in Germany too.

[Maggie Mae]

9 to 11:30 is a bit of an exaggeration, but their school day is shorter than in the US. Obviously it varies greatly. But I'd say getting out at 1 is more than norm. Then you go home and have your big hot lunch. Sometimes in the older grades, though, there is stuff after lunch -- usually special subjects that you only have once or twice a week. (I'm American but was an exchange student in Germany for a year and spent other time living there as an adult.)

I thought it varied by area (state?) in Germany.

[morfydd]

"Well if that's true and these parents don't have a criminal record, why deport them?"

Because they don't have a valid visa. They could stay if they tried to meet the standard entry criteria, but they haven't done that.

"Yes, they could have stayed in Europe, but why should they have to? I don't see how the similar culture is a reason to send them back. Unless we think people from different cultures should have to stick with their own kind. Not an attitude I'm comfortable with.

They don't have to stay in Europe. They can get a normal visa like everyone else who wants to move to the US. I'm a US citizen working in Germany and I know at least five German coworkers who have moved to the US, with varying plans for how long they plan to stay. People aren't saying they should be sent back because they should have to "stick with their own kind". They're pointing out that the claim of religious persecution is bogus, because they can, with *no legal hassle*, move a short way to Austria, and there they would also have the advantages of: a native language, lower moving costs, short travel to visit relatives, and yes, a similar culture.

"As for crying persecution, this persecution stuff wouldn't be in the news if the US government didn't challenge their appeal and hassle them the way it hassles anyone who tries to follow procedures to move here legally."

They didn't try to follow the normal procedures to move here legally. They tried to jump the line by saying they were religious refugees. The US disagrees that homeschooling invokes that status, and they could easily avoid the homeschooling rules by moving to another EU country.

[longskirts]

Someone else said they should have gone to Austria where the language and culture are similar.

I agree this is not the normal procedure but it is much harder to immigrate here legally than you're saying. People enter the lottery and wait years and even decades for permission to live here. If we reformed that system then these questionable asylum cases wouldn't happen.

[flyaway]

I thought it varied by area (state?) in Germany.

It definitely does. It was an attempt at generalization.

[pudding]

In Austria school starts at 7:45 and in Germany at 8:00 - a regular schoolday is fnished at 1 pm, the older you get, the more afternoons you spend at school. So from age 14 up you ar likely to have 2-3 times a week until 5 pm. Of course this varies with courses, states and schooltypes, but in general it's like that. Just fyi

[FundiPastafari]

Well, I just finished high school in Germany and I have lived in several places in Germany (different "Bundesländer") and also in the US for half a year.

In elementary school (age 6-10), school starts at roundabout 8 and you finish at 11 or 12. Later on, it's usually from 8 to 1 or 2, and from the age of fourteen you usually have 2 times a week until 3 o'clock.

I dont get why they didn't moved to Austria... I have seen documentaries about families which moved to Austria to homeschool their children... The Romeikes got quite a lot of attention in the SPIEGEL and other newspapers... they maybe like to see themselves as persecuted "victims". I have very little sympathy for them.

[jaynie]

warning OT

Okay, this is boggling my mind a bit. How does Germany have a shorter work day than American students but still out perform the United States on tests?

A lot of countries that outperform the USA on education have much shorter days, especially for younger kids, and start classes later in life too. I think it has a lot to do with developmental appropriateness (most six year old children aren't going to glean a lot of knowledge from a full day of intense schoolwork that their minds are too young to understand properly in the first place), but there are other factors like teacher quality, small class sizes, and greater investment in schools by the government. Though shorter workdays increases productivity in adults, too. Quantity =/= quality, as it turns out. Brains just aren't built for sitting and focusing for such long stretches of time.

[Childless]

Someone else said they should have gone to Austria where the language and culture are similar.

I agree this is not the normal procedure but it is much harder to immigrate here legally than you're saying. People enter the lottery and wait years and even decades for permission to live here. If we reformed that system then these questionable asylum cases wouldn't happen.

How long it takes to immigrate here legally doesn't matter. The point is that they claimed asylum when they had no reason to do so. If it's judged that their claim is false, then they are deported. End of story. There was no persecution on their part. They are permitted to practice their religion in Germany. No one is stopping them. They had viable alternatives to pursue if they wanted to home school their children. They have no leg to stand on in this case.

If they want to be here, then they can go through the legal process like anyone else or the husband can find a job in the U.S. and obtain a work visa. Those are their only two choices.

[longskirts]

If they want to be here, then they can go through the legal process like anyone else or the husband can find a job in the U.S. and obtain a work visa. Those are their only two choices.

"Like everyone else"? There are millions of people living in the US illegally because the system is so unworkable. If there were a straightforward way to apply for citizenship (instead of lotteries that you can enter and wait decades to win) then there wouldn't be so many illegals or fake asylum cases.

[Hane]

Yes I've seen that on fb too, followed by "we let all the illegal immigrants stay but of course Obama opposes this one family"

I saw this posted by an otherwise intelligent friend who has fallen into the "OMG Obama is taking all our freedoms away!!1111!!!11!" camp. I couldn't help posting,

Political asylum is intended for people who will suffer actual danger should they be returned to their homelands. I met many political refugees during my years teaching ESL, and this family doesn't fit the profile. Germany is only one of two European countries that prohibits home-schooling. I don't understand why the parents didn't simply move the family to neighboring Austria, a German-speaking country which does allow home-schooling.

Waiting for the $#!+storm to happen.

[SpeshulTaterTot]

I remember when this family first moved to the States and a friend of mine cried persecution. She's not even Christian, she's the hippie homeschooling type. I didn't get it then and I don't get it now. There are people who face being killed in their home countries who aren't granted asylum, so how is not being allowed to homeschool any worse? Especially if, as it's been said many times, they could just move to a country in the EU where homeschooling is legal. They wouldn't be the first family to do that. But of course, that wouldn't get them any attention.

As for the shorter school days, yeah, they are a lot shorter. Most schools don't serve lunch, either. Berlin schools are slowly starting to switch to an 8-3 or 4 day with lunch, but the afternoons aren't usually classes, kids can just do homework with supervision or even get to play. It really depends on the state.

[jaelh]

How long it takes to immigrate here legally doesn't matter. The point is that they claimed asylum when they had no reason to do so. If it's judged that their claim is false, then they are deported. End of story. There was no persecution on their part. They are permitted to practice their religion in Germany. No one is stopping them. They had viable alternatives to pursue if they wanted to home school their children. They have no leg to stand on in this case.

Actually; given their initial application was successful, there was clearly at least some disagreement on wether they had a "reason to do so". Further, no one has judged their claim false - everything they state has been accepted as fact. I'm not sure if they were kicked out in the basis of "membership of a particular social group" (ie: that they are no members of a group to whom the RC applies) or that the actions taken against them did not constitute persecution. I'm going to *guess* it was the former [they can't be claiming persec. as Christians, as everyone is discriminated against in this way]; and if they're claiming discrimination on the basis of being homeschoolers,[that's hardly an immutable characteristic...]).

"Viable alternatives" aren't necessarily appropriate measures - say I'm denied access to a primary education on the basis of my religious background, and I could afford to be sent abroad for an education (let's say it is a viable alternative) - doesn't mean that any group should be compelled to so act.

I didn't get it then and I don't get it now. There are people who face being killed in their home countries who aren't granted asylum, so how is not being allowed to homeschool any worse?

It's not about being "worse" or "deserving". The Refugee Convention protects very particular types of actions and persons. These guys could well have gotten through (and very nearly did, if I understand the various previous postings).

To qualify as a refugee you must have a

a) well founded fear of persecuted

on the basis of:

b) race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion.

Nothing actually needs to have happened to you necessarily. People getting killed in warfare aren't being persecuted; there is no (for lack of a better phrase) discriminatory political intent. [i know; that phrasing doesn't really work, but it's the best I can do having just woken up]

Now,... if the group *doing* the killing was the government, then things might be different (unless it was a civil war; then things might be different again.. etc). Maybe it's blocking children of a past enemy from accessing higher education etc... Life and death matters don't have anything to do with it [i'm not saying this is a good thing, it's just how it is].

Think of the type of actions you'd have wanted taken in Germany in the 1930's - many of the early acts of discrimination against the Jews weren't physical or violent - banning from public service jobs; no interracial marriage; etc... The Jews of Germany had no grounds on which to base an appeal for admission to other countries when things started to get bad. The Refugee Convention was intended to deal specifically with this political discrimination and that alone. It was designed to provide a relief valve *before* things got to gas chambers etc.. We *need* people to be able to claim asylum on the basis of "small", "non-violent" things, if we're to achieve the spirit of the Convention. That people are being killed is tragic, and there should be ways of aiding them, but they are not the intended beneficiaries of the RC, nor should their existence have any bearing on wether people can or should be able to access asylum.

Anyway - the other part is the membership of the particular group is also important. Imagine if a state said - we're going to treat all Jews or Muslims the was Saudi Arabia treats women. Every Jew or Muslim is such a country would be entitled to refugee status. However; women in Saudi? no. They're not (at least in my jurisdiction) classed as "members of a particular social group or political opinion".

anyway. not to say the claim isn't laughable (in fact, though likely also in law) - I'm curious as to which group they claimed membership of most of all. And I'd love to see the initial approval [actually; that makes me curious - if the state approved them, who appealed? The whole thing is a very strange scenario that doesn't make much sense..]