Truth in gender stereotypes?

[Wolfie]

I've done the bolded, and the one underlined I do often but push gently to see if it will close, so I don't break things. The first two were things I just had to learn, and somehow didn't learn as a child even though I was expected to help with the dishes. (or maybe forgot as my first couple of apartments didn't have dishwashers.) And I'm a female. So I don't think it's a gender specific thing, just a problem for those of us with questionable gross motor skills. (my fine motor skills are awesome, gross motor, not so much.)

Edited because I didn't think about the fact that stuff would be in italics, changed to underlined.

[Diana]

1. Saying "scientists say" means nothing, and SOTDRT grads do this all the time. If there is an actual scientist with an actual study published in a peer-reviewed journal, please feel free to share.

2. I'm skeptical of "evolution" arguments to support gender differences, because men and women don't reproduce and evolve separately. We inherit one set of chromosomes from our mother, and one from our father.

Sorry but i cant remember the name of the scientist as you may understad since i read it on a newspaper long time ago, it was the typical new about scientists of an american university doing a study.. maybe you can search it in google or something i dont know...

Im not an expert on evolution or science(im a letters student) but as i know female are XX and male XY so there are differences since the females dont inherit the Y chromosome and all...

[justakawaiilurker85]

Sorry but i cant remember the name of the scientist as you may understad since i read it on a newspaper long time ago, it was the typical new about scientists of an american university doing a study.. maybe you can search it in google or something i dont know...

Im not an expert on evolution or science(im a letters student) but as i know female are XX and male XY so there are differences since the females dont inherit the Y chromosome and all...

just want to chime in

the X chromosome received from the mother is just one of the 23 unique chromosomes she passes to her offspring. likewise, the X or Y chromosome is one of the 23 unique chromosomes passed on to his offspring. so no matter if the offspring is male or female, they've received traits from both their mother and their father.

if i recall correctly, the XX and XY chromosomes simply control sex organ functions.

[Maggie Mae]

Sorry but i cant remember the name of the scientist as you may understad since i read it on a newspaper long time ago, it was the typical new about scientists of an american university doing a study.. maybe you can search it in google or something i dont know...

Im not an expert on evolution or science(im a letters student) but as i know female are XX and male XY so there are differences since the females dont inherit the Y chromosome and all...

Why don't YOU google it and find it, as you are the one who referred to this study in the first place?

[Boogalou]

I read once that scientists say that its supposed that our differences (physical and in the brain) came from evolution and the chores our ancestors in the prehistoria did, the males brain became better to process the long distance vision, and detect animals to hunt, the women were recolectors and their brains became better for short distance vision, obviusly women get pregnant and had to breastfeed, so the division of chores was necessary for survival reasons.

So we naturally have some differences, but since every person is different not all the womas or mens are the same, and there is the cultural thing too that have a big influence in our interests.

Its funny that the reason of gender differences is evolution, and the most ardent advocates of gender differences are also the ones that have the stronger rejection of evolution.

I had a reply to this all typed out last night and then the board died so I never posted it. So sad. Anyway...

How can a "scientist" know that somewhere in our vague evolutionary past men hunted and women gathered? If we look at contemporary foraging societies that is true in some cases but certainly not all. Among the Agta (or Aeta) of the Phillipines more than 80% of the women hunt on a regular basis. All women hunting groups are actually more successful than all male hunting groups (although mixed-sex hunting groups are the most successful). They are the most notable example but among foraging societies it is very common for women to hunt small game. I have no idea how you would go about looking at the sexual division between hunting and gathering even 10,000 years ago. You should ALWAYS be very suspect when someone claims there was some sort of universal behaviour (that just so happens to neatly fit into our modern gender stereotypes) when they really have very little (if any) evidence for it.

[Diana]

Why don't YOU google it and find it, as you are the one who referred to this study in the first place?

ok you dont need to be rude, i tell that if he is interested he can search about it, i read it in a spanish newspaper so if i search for it and found it he is not going to understad so i said that he can try to find it in english.

By the way i always heard of the difference between male and female brain, and its just logical that the difference comes from evolution, i always heard that, not only in that study about hunt/recolection, but in a lot other things(like the better ability of women in communication) but im not an expert to explain it or know enough english to sound convicing, so is better if you search for actual studies about it because im sure that there are a lot.

[Shirley MacLaine]

was checking out some things with google just to see what would come up with autofill, and it reminded me of this thread...

[valsa]

i always heard that, not only in that study about hunt/recolection, but in a lot other things(like the better ability of womans in communication)

What you have to understand is that what is "common knowledge" about gender differences is probably not innate.

Take your example of women communicating better. Who does society expect to communicate more- women or me? Who grows up being encouraged to express their feelings more- little boys or little girls? Who is more likely to be pushed towards physical activities (sports, rough-housing, etc) with friends/peers versus who is likely to be pushed towards communicative activities (talking over hair braiding, shopping, playing with dolls, etc) with friend/peers?

Society and culture grooms women from the time they're babies to communicate and express feelings more than men. There is no evidence that if society began to change their expectation of communication from boys to the same level as girls, that they wouldn't get similar results.

[Diana]

What you have to understand is that what is "common knowledge" about gender differences is probably not innate.

Take your example of women communicating better. Who does society expect to communicate more- women or me? Who grows up being encouraged to express their feelings more- little boys or little girls? Who is more likely to be pushed towards physical activities (sports, rough-housing, etc) with friends/peers versus who is likely to be pushed towards communicative activities (talking over hair braiding, shopping, playing with dolls, etc) with friend/peers?

Society and culture grooms women from the time they're babies to communicate and express feelings more than men. There is no evidence that if society began to change their expectation of communication from boys to the same level as girls, that they wouldn't get similar results.

Ok maybe thats true, i dont know because to know that you should educate a boy same as a girl and see if there are differences or not(and this is not really possible without isolating he of society). By the way the transexuals being educated like boys(and encouraged to do sports, dont cry, etc) still have the characteristics of girls so what is the explanation of that? i still believe that we are not the same, we have physical differences, the men are stronger, and women have more flexibility, so is not that weird that our brain have differences also, i see myself different of males and im happy for being a woman and not a men :lol:

[valsa]

By the way the transexuals being educated like boys(and encouraged to do sports, dont cry, etc) still have the characteristics of girls so what is the explanation of that?

Being transgender has nothing to do with feminine or masculine qualities. Someone can be a MtF transgender person and like football, BBQ, and not like to express their feelings.

i still believe that we are not the same, we have physical differences, the men are stronger, and women have more flexibility

There are many women who are stronger than the average man and many men who are more flexible than the average woman.

i see myself different of males and im happy for being a woman and not a men :lol:

You are different than many males. You're also different than many women. Neither of which have anything to do with innate differences between men and women.

I'm happy to be a woman as well. I also like other women, would prefer to build something over doing hair and makeup (which I haven't had done in over three years when I attended my stepsister's wedding), don't like to talk about my feelings, don't really enjoy cooking or cleaning, etc. None of those typically male characteristics make me any less of a woman.

[formergothardite]

I hate talking about my feelings. HATE IT. It is one of the biggest issues in our marriage is that he wants to sit and talk it out and I don't. I have to force myself to say what I am really feeling.

[Diana]

Im going to try to reply with all the quoting thing like you :lol:

Being transgender has nothing to do with feminine or masculine qualities. Someone can be a MtF transgender person and like football, BBQ, and not like to express their feelings.

I was not talking about hobbies or things that the person like i was refering to qualities and capacities.

There are many women who are stronger than the average man and many men who are more flexible than the average woman.

Of course there are exceptions, because there are different races, different genetics.. so not all men are same or equal strong. But in general women have more flexibility than men and men are stronger. For example in gymnastic classes the majority of girls can do more difficult flexibility ejercices, i had a very bad flexibility and was one of the worse of the girls, but still the majority of the boys have the same or worse flexibility than me,and only a few were better.

I'm happy to be a woman as well. I also like other women, would prefer to build something over doing hair and makeup (which I haven't had done in over three years when I attended my stepsister's wedding), don't like to talk about my feelings, don't really enjoy cooking or cleaning, etc. None of those typically male characteristics make me any less of a woman.

When i said that women are better at communication i was not talking about expressing emotions actually but about linguistical and not verbal communication abilities.

When i said i like to be a woman i was not refering that i like those activities that you said, actually the fact that this activities are femenine is only cultural, and i dont think that liking things like that make you more or less a woman(there are people who really like cleaning? :shock: ), but that im proud of being a female, with my physical and psychical characteristics that make me different from males.

[valsa]

I was not talking about hobbies or things that the person like i was refering to qualities and capacities.

The only thing required to be transgender is feeling that your physical gender doesn't match your actual gender. There are trans people with the qualities and capacities both of their physical gender and their real gender.

Of course there are exceptions, because there are different races, different genetics.. so not all men are same or equal strong. But in general women have more flexibility than men and men are stronger. For example in gymnastic classes the majority of girls can do more difficult flexibility ejercices, i had a very bad flexibility and was one of the worse of the girls, but still the majority of the boys have the same or worse flexibility than me,and only a few were better.

If there are as many exceptions to something as exists with gender stereotypes, it can't really be considered to be the truth. Generalizations aren't exactly something you should pin your whole belief system on.

When i said that women are better at communication i was not talking about expressing emotions actually but about linguistical and not verbal communication abilities.

And you don't think that being expected and encouraged to express feelings verbally would lead to girls having more practice at things like linguistics and non-verbal communication, thus usually making them more skilled at it?

but that im proud of being a female, with my physical and psychical characteristics that make me different from males.

This is a bit of a tangent but- why? Why would you be proud of what amounts to an accident of birth? I'm not proud of being white or blonde or blue-eyed because those physical characteristics aren't something I had any control over, so why would I be proud of being a woman? And why would I care that being a woman makes me different from being a man?

[2xx1xy1JD]

Diana - I'm not trying to be rude, but we've spent time on this board snarking on various bullshit theories that people - including some politicans - defend on the basis of "scientists/doctors say", without ever giving specifics.

Hormone levels are different in males and females, and can vary considerably within individual males and females. They likely account for some gender differences.

The evolution argument, though, seems to be an unsupported theory. Only traits found on the X or Y genes are linked to gender. We know how that related to something like hemophilia, but I haven't seen any evidence that communication patterns or any of the other things that you mentioned are connected to genes located on that chromosome.

[Diana]

I still think that there are differences between male and females because this is what the common sense and experience tells to me (by the way if you watch sports you see that in the olympics the man and woman compite separated, that is because our physical capacities are not the same and is proveed), but since i dont know enought about that im not going to argue with you i only told what i read in a newspaper.

Valsa you cant choose your gender, just like you cant choose your sexual orientation or nationality and still be proud of it.

[valsa]

Valsa you cant choose your gender, just like you cant choose your sexual orientation or nationality and still be proud of it.

I'm not proud of my sexual orientation and I'm only proud of my country if it accomplishes something or upholds something positive and I'm a part of it (for instance, if the Supreme Court makes a ruling that opens the door for nation-wide gay marriage and I've always voted in a way that supports equal rights (voting for candidates who support equality who in turn support either the decision-makers or policies that also promote equality), then I would consider that something to be proud of)

If my mother had lived about 70 more miles in one particular direction two and a half decades ago, I would have been born in an entirely different country. So I'm not seeing just being born in one particular geographic area as something to get all worked up about.

[Boogalou]

I still think that there are differences between male and females because this is what the common sense and experience tells to me (by the way if you watch sports you see that in the olympics the man and woman compite separated, that is because our physical capacities are not the same and is proveed), but since i dont know enought about that im not going to argue with you i only told what i read in a newspaper.

Valsa you cant choose your gender, just like you cant choose your sexual orientation or nationality and still be proud of it.

I must have missed the part where cleaning became an Olympic sport.

Thing is though that I would put those kinds of abilities (sports, weight lifting and whatnot) down to sex differences, not gender stereotypes. You also have to look at the different ways men and women's sports are funded which I am sure has some sort of effect (how much I don't know).

[RachelB]

ok you dont need to be rude, i tell that if he is interested he can search about it, i read it in a spanish newspaper so if i search for it and found it he is not going to understad so i said that he can try to find it in english.

By the way i always heard of the difference between male and female brain, and its just logical that the difference comes from evolution, i always heard that, not only in that study about hunt/recolection, but in a lot other things(like the better ability of women in communication) but im not an expert to explain it or know enough english to sound convicing, so is better if you search for actual studies about it because im sure that there are a lot.

If you had read the Cornelia Fine book cited above, you would know that part of the reason that methodologically unsound, sloppy evo-psych studies of the sort you aren't even citing get the newspaper coverage they do is that they purport to prove things that people think they have "always heard" and "always known" about differences between men and women, differences that "it's just logical" to think come from evolution. (Evolutionary psychology is, generally speaking, guesswork, because cave men and women left notoriously poor records, being pre-literate and all that.)

Such studies appeal to you because of confirmation bias. And confirmation bias, in case no one has ever told you, gets in the way of critical thinking. That is, it's a common cognitive problem, and it encourages you to believe an idea because you've already heard various versions of it many times, regardless of whether it's actually true.

[Spider Burps]

was checking out some things with google just to see what would come up with autofill, and it reminded me of this thread...

You made me curious, so I did some Google autofilling, too! In case you were wondering, there was nothing for "chicks shouldn't", "ladies shouldn't", or "gentlemen shouldn't."