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Truth in gender stereotypes?


YPestis

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I didn't read every response. So if I am repeating anything, sorry.

I do think there is a lot of truth in stereotypes. Men and women are different, we just are. Now that being said it doesn't mean that a Man and woman can't do the same things but they will do them differently. I have 4 boys and 1 girl, that little girl threw me for a loop. She is very diffrent from the boys, now she can throw a ball and is super smart, but she is just different, she likes to dress up is attracted to pink and sits and plays differently. Same toys just she plays differently with them.

Next we had a role reversal, I was a SAHM for years, now I am in premed and my hubby stays home fulltime. He is a wonderful SAHD BUT how he does it is completely different than me. He can stay home with a newborn, but how we parent is different. Yes a Dad can bond, stay home, clean and everything and a mom can go to work, but I think men and women are different creatures and we act differently. I was the only girl in a houseful of boys growing up too. I can play football and get down and dirty with the boys, but the min one of my brothers punched me I was crying.

Some examples of what I mean: I worry more about the kids, playing outside, what the neighbors think, read books, schedule, and everything. My husband doesn't care, he worries about them but if a neighbor said anything to him I think he would tell them to go to hell. He can not do hair, so I do my daughters hair. He can clean but I do deep cleaning my husband either goes nuts cleaning something silly like detailing the fridge or he orders the kids ot clean it and vacuums. I menu planned everything, my husband tried to grill everything, skipping veggies. I had to explain to him we need veggies too. I ironed the kids clothes, my husband has everyone dress in their clothes before bed and rolls them out of bed.

He also is bonded differently to the kids. I am married to a WONDERFUL man, and he is better than most but we do things very differently. And being we have broken most stereotypes, it is ok to point those differences out. Those differences never got in the way of our dreams and goals, but if we act like women and men are completely the same instead of realizing we have different things each has to overcome to reach those goals we are setting our kids up for failure. Just my 2 cents, take it or leave it. ;)

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Also, I think moms tend to focus more on certain things that many men just wouldn't care about. For example, it seems like a lot of the SAHDs I've met tend to be less focused on clothes and other "fussy" details, whereas the women often care more about these kinds of things.

Maybe moms are more focused on clothes because US culture conditions women to think they should be focused on clothes more than men. Another one is girls "naturally" liking pink and boys who grow up with sisters but turn out to be into all the stereotypical "boy things" later. That sounds a lot like cultural influence and expectations to me - like someone else said parents are (usually, coughMaxwellscough) not the only influence on a child's life. Kids also encounter peers at school, other adults, pop culture, etc.

I do think some stereotypes can belie truth - but as in, describing patterns within a culture. I would say most if not all the things people have posted here in "support" of gender stereotypes fall within that category. But a stereotype identifying a general trend within a culture is not the same thing as nor proof of those traits being rooted in nature.

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Another one is girls "naturally" liking pink and boys who grow up with sisters but turn out to be into all the stereotypical "boy things" later. That sounds a lot like cultural influence and expectations to me - like someone else said parents are (usually, coughMaxwellscough) not the only influence on a child's life. Kids also encounter peers at school, other adults, pop culture, etc.

I mean, especially given that pink hasn't always been the designated 'girl color'

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Guest Anonymous

I'm all over it! When I first read the thread I had to look at the address bar to make sure this was, in fact, FJ.

This new friend even gives "Man" a capital letter for extra validation!

I didn't read every response. So if I am repeating anything, sorry.

I do think there is a lot of truth in stereotypes. Men and women are different, we just are. Now that being said it doesn't mean that a Man and woman can't do the same things but they will do them differently. I have 4 boys and 1 girl, that little girl threw me for a loop. She is very diffrent from the boys, now she can throw a ball and is super smart, but she is just different, she likes to dress up is attracted to pink and sits and plays differently. Same toys just she plays differently with them.

...

Just my 2 cents, take it or leave it.;)

I'm going to leave it, thanks, until you learn the difference between "science" and "stereotypes". :lol:

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When a handful of people you know who all have (presumably) been raised and socialised in very similar Western cultures with pretty clearly defined gender roles follow those normalized gender roles it does not mean that males and females all over the world at various time periods exhibited those characteristics as well and that this is somehow natural, inborn, genetic, and unchangeable.

I don't think men and women are the same. I think everyone is an individual and not bound by their gender and/or sex.

There is nothing in men's genes that makes them bad at doing hair. This is the second time someone has posted this exact same thing on here about how gender roles are natural, I don't get it.

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I mean, especially given that pink hasn't always been the designated 'girl color'

So much this. In fact, 100 years ago, blue was a tranquil color "suitable for females" and pink was a junior red, which as the color of blood, was "manly," so no way in hell is attraction to pink naturally feminine.

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I think there are definite biological, brain based differences between boys and girls/men and women.

The pregnancy thing is definitely true. I have always believed that women are "pre-wired" to nurture babies, and whilst men can do a great job, I think it takes more effort on their part to learn the ropes. Women have special hormones that promote bonding between mother and baby (one of those hormones, oxytocin, is often released during breastfeeding). Men don't experience these physical or hormonal changes, nor do they go through pregnancy themselves, which IMHO puts them at a disadvantage compared to their female counterparts. It doesn't mean that men can't be nurturing, I just think they have to work harder at it. Also, I think moms tend to focus more on certain things that many men just wouldn't care about. For example, it seems like a lot of the SAHDs I've met tend to be less focused on clothes and other "fussy" details, whereas the women often care more about these kinds of things. I think a large part of mothering is very instinctual.

So the only way to feel completely comfortable with children is to get pregnant? What about mother's who adopt or foster? Do they not have the innate ability to parent their children? So women's hormones from pregnancy makes the "fussy" over small details? So based on your statements, only women can fuss over clothes. And that is nature, not nurture. That has nothing to do with what women have been conditioned to believe in society. That is not what every commercial has ever shown... not at all. And what evidence do you have that men don't care about such "fussy" details of raising a child?

My husband is the best Daddy in the world (not that I'm biased or anything :mrgreen: ) but while I was curled up reading Parenting books at bedtime, he was curled up reading Batman graphic novels :lol: It's just.....different. I don't think moms and dads are interchangeable, I think each gender has their strengths and weaknesses, and should build on each other to provide the best care they can for their child.

So your sample size of "men who don't read parenting books" is your husband of one? I guess I should hide my bookshelf of different parenting books because I shouldn't be reading them, and neither should the partner. To address the second statement... BULLSHIT! I'm sorry, while influences of both sexes should be present in anyone's lives, my children will grow up with TWO fathers and I highly doubt they will be worse for the ware because of it. You can have influences from both males and females without having a mother and a father.

I have 3 daughters, and a son. My daughters all came first, my son came last. It's been interesting seeing the genuine differences in their behavior. Boys seem to be more active by nature. Girls seem to be more verbal. I remember sitting at my kitchen window once, watching a group of 5-6 boys chasing each other with wiffle bats and smacking the crap out of each other. I remember looking to my husband and saying, You'd never see girls doing that! When my son was born, he was different right from the get go. While my girls wanted to coo and smile at me, I couldn't even get him to look at me. He was much more interested in the ceiling fans and wall hangings. As he grew I noticed he was much more physical, destructive, and aggressive than his sisters. He gravitated to cars and things with wheels. He was just very different.

Really you've never seen a girl smack someone with a wiffle bat? Perhaps it's because in your limited world you wouldn't give a girl a wiffle bat. Hell, growing up we had many girls who played street hockey with us in the cul de sac and they were just as rough as the boys. Is your son the way he is becaus eyou've CONDITIONED him or because of some innate feeling? Do you consider the culture you live as to why you expect your son to be the way he is?

I consider myself fairly "liberated" in the gender roles department. I allowed my daughters to dress my son up in tutus, paint his fingernails and toe nails, and put bows in his hair :mrgreen: Despite our best efforts, he has grown up to be interested in more traditionally "boy" activities. If indeed it was all "nurture", having 3 big sisters to show him how to be a great little girl should have produced a calmer, less "traditionally gender stereotyped" male. That was not the case at all. The older I get, and the more I experience life, the more convinced I am that nature plays a HUGE part in how people turn out. My 4 kids are all very different from each other, and have all been parented the same way. Even their interests vary wildly. How can we explain that through nurture?

Nature Vs Nurture is a very heated debate in many circles. You cannot solve the age old question with something as silly as your family. You parented your kids exactly the same way? You changed every diaper the same, placed each child in the exact same clothes, fed them the exact same food at every step in their journey as exactly the same age and time? You presented them each with exactly the same opportunity? You spoke to them in exactly the same tone, said the exact same words, answered every question the same? Did you keep your older children from every having contact with the younger children, keeping each child in their own bubble? Did you arrange their rooms exactly the same with exactly the same bead spread and thickness/softness of the mattress?

If you didn't do any of those things, you did not parent them in the same way. You may have kept the same philosophy, but you cannot account for everything you may or may not have done with each. It's been proven that people even SPEAK to boys and girls differently from the moment they are born, using different tones and choices of words. It's crazy to think you did everything the same.

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First I capitalized man because I am tired, and had a long day, typos happen. I make a lot of them I don't really care or worry about it.

Second after writing up a post I think I am just tired and confusing myself. I got to thinking about it and no stereotypes are stupid and have no meaning. I was thinking wait boys and girls are different, and skipping the whole fundy stereotype thing. I am tired guys sorry. Yesterday was midterms I don't think I have recovered yet. :whistle:

Oh my daughter who loves hello kittys favorite color is BLUE. I was not happy about it, after 4 boys her favorite color has to be BLUE! :doh:

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My husband and I are both reading parenting books at the moment. The only difference being that I am drawn to the theoretical, and he prefers the ones that read like the repair manual for his truck. I chalk this up to personality rather than gender.

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I think I've recommended this before, but a really good book on the subject is "Delusions of Gender" by Cordelia Fine. She pretty much demolishes the vast majority of the studies that supposedly prove there is an innate difference between girl people and boy people. Some of the dodgy "research" people have tried to pass of as science is astonishing -- like, studies that "prove" women are better/worse at whatever trait...which only study women. Or studies that show baby girl chimps like girl toys and baby boy chimps like boy toys, but the "girl" toys include things like frying pans. Because girl chimps know their true place in the kitchen, or something. Or the "boy" toy is an action figure, which I'm sure our hairy cousins know is Totally Different from a doll.

Frankly it makes me embarrassed as a psych student that there is so much of this in the literature.

People will look at children and see what they expect to see. Say you're looking at two kids, a boy and a girl, playing with an action figure and a Barbie doll, respectively. They're playing school, say. The boy is seen as a natural leader, bossy, authoritative, confident. The girl is seen as nurturing, gentle, sweet, kind. It doesn't matter if they're doing the exact same thing. It doesn't matter if the girl goes on to use her Barbie's head as a projectile weapon while the boy tucks his action figure into bed at night. Even if you see those two kids tending to their respective toys, the girl is a "future mom" and the boy is a "future doctor"!

My husband is the best Daddy in the world (not that I'm biased or anything ) but while I was curled up reading Parenting books at bedtime, he was curled up reading Batman graphic novels It's just.....different.

If I had procreated with any of the guys I have dated (or even fancied), this situation would be entirely reversed. It IS reversed for 2/3 of the young parents I know. Am I not a woman? Are they not women? Your situation does not extrapolate to everyone. :roll:

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Oh my daughter who loves hello kittys favorite color is BLUE. I was not happy about it, after 4 boys her favorite color has to be BLUE! :doh:

Doesn't that make just about as much sense as not being happy that one of your sons' favorite color wasn't pink?

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There is nothing in men's genes that makes them bad at doing hair. This is the second time someone has posted this exact same thing on here about how gender roles are natural, I don't get it.

That's particularly bizarre given the other stereotype of, you know, the gay male stylist.

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I think there are definite biological, brain based differences between boys and girls/men and women.

The pregnancy thing is definitely true. I have always believed that women are "pre-wired" to nurture babies, and whilst men can do a great job, I think it takes more effort on their part to learn the ropes. Women have special hormones that promote bonding between mother and baby (one of those hormones, oxytocin, is often released during breastfeeding). Men don't experience these physical or hormonal changes, nor do they go through pregnancy themselves, which IMHO puts them at a disadvantage compared to their female counterparts. It doesn't mean that men can't be nurturing, I just think they have to work harder at it. Also, I think moms tend to focus more on certain things that many men just wouldn't care about. For example, it seems like a lot of the SAHDs I've met tend to be less focused on clothes and other "fussy" details, whereas the women often care more about these kinds of things. I think a large part of mothering is very instinctual.

My husband is the best Daddy in the world (not that I'm biased or anything :mrgreen: ) but while I was curled up reading Parenting books at bedtime, he was curled up reading Batman graphic novels :lol: It's just.....different. I don't think moms and dads are interchangeable, I think each gender has their strengths and weaknesses, and should build on each other to provide the best care they can for their child.

I have 3 daughters, and a son. My daughters all came first, my son came last. It's been interesting seeing the genuine differences in their behavior. Boys seem to be more active by nature. Girls seem to be more verbal. I remember sitting at my kitchen window once, watching a group of 5-6 boys chasing each other with wiffle bats and smacking the crap out of each other. I remember looking to my husband and saying, You'd never see girls doing that! When my son was born, he was different right from the get go. While my girls wanted to coo and smile at me, I couldn't even get him to look at me. He was much more interested in the ceiling fans and wall hangings. As he grew I noticed he was much more physical, destructive, and aggressive than his sisters. He gravitated to cars and things with wheels. He was just very different.

I consider myself fairly "liberated" in the gender roles department. I allowed my daughters to dress my son up in tutus, paint his fingernails and toe nails, and put bows in his hair :mrgreen: Despite our best efforts, he has grown up to be interested in more traditionally "boy" activities. If indeed it was all "nurture", having 3 big sisters to show him how to be a great little girl should have produced a calmer, less "traditionally gender stereotyped" male. That was not the case at all. The older I get, and the more I experience life, the more convinced I am that nature plays a HUGE part in how people turn out. My 4 kids are all very different from each other, and have all been parented the same way. Even their interests vary wildly. How can we explain that through nurture?

Neither do adoptive mothers.

My mom has nine kids, a mixture of boys and girls, shockingly we are all different from each other even after having been parented the same way. Even our interests vary wildly. I actually have more in common with some of my brothers than with some than with some of my sisters. How do we explain this? Well, we are all individuals and have different personalities.

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Confessions that according to some posters mignt make me "not a real woman":

I suck at doing hair. As long as it is combed I am happy.

As long as it is weather appropriate, I really don't care what my kids wear.

I don't iron.

I got kind of bored with the parenting books and would have rather read other things, but felt guilty for feeling this way so I forced by way through at least one.

I used to beat up other kids when I was little. Apparently the parents of one toddler boy in the church nursery refused to leave him if I was there because I tormented him so much.

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Some examples of what I mean: I worry more about the kids, playing outside, what the neighbors think, read books, schedule, and everything. My husband doesn't care, he worries about them but if a neighbor said anything to him I think he would tell them to go to hell. He can not do hair, so I do my daughters hair. He can clean but I do deep cleaning my husband either goes nuts cleaning something silly like detailing the fridge or he orders the kids ot clean it and vacuums. I menu planned everything, my husband tried to grill everything, skipping veggies. I had to explain to him we need veggies too. I ironed the kids clothes, my husband has everyone dress in their clothes before bed and rolls them out of bed.

In my experience, this has more to do with how men were raised, and very little to do with how they're hard-wired.

I have an 18 year old son of my own, and two stepsons, ages 21 and 23. When I first met my husband I bought the idea that he was just wired differently! We have different ideas about how the house should be cleaned! Etc. etc. It wasn't until the older boys came to live with us that I started to say, oh, hell no. Because they were being raised the exact same way by THEIR mother as my husband was by his.

It really contrasted to how I raised my son as a single mom. My son kept his room clean. He learned to cook, and then clean up after himself when he was done. Studying came first, then he could do social stuff, etc. etc. Whereas his stepbrothers had a housekeeper (because boys). They could cook stuff, but if they cook, it's not their job to clean up the mess (because boys are messy in the kitchen). Their grades were mediocre at best (because football and/or gaming). They never changed their sheets (because guys don't think like that!).

Anyhow, the more I lived with them, the more I started to notice how I accepted that exact noise from their father, who was truly bewildered as to why I wouldn't be super excited after doing the housework after working all day to find that he had rinsed his dinner dishes under the tap.

My first husband was also raised by a single mom and it is startling, the differences in how he took care of a home. He actually started and finished whatever jobs he was doing around the house. My husband now, much as I love him, would never, ever keep his home clean. But it has nothing at all to do with him being a man. It's that he's had women trailing around taking care of him for 49 years.

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My first husband was also raised by a single mom and it is startling, the differences in how he took care of a home. He actually started and finished whatever jobs he was doing around the house. My husband now, much as I love him, would never, ever keep his home clean. But it has nothing at all to do with him being a man. It's that he's had women trailing around taking care of him for 49 years.

It doesn't have to do with the mom being single or not, it just has to do with how they are raised. My brother was raised to help clean up around the house too, and our parents are still married.

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About hair, I didn't mean it like that, I already posted I was tired. I meant he doesn't do my daughters hair, my husband is uncomfortable getting my daughter dressed and doing her hair but I think that is more cultural than anything. He does the boys hair, but she has super long hair and I get her up everyone morning before work to pull it up. I was talking about the aspect of parenting. I think in general guys just worry less about little things when it comes to parenting. I know part of it is cultural but genetics have a lot to do with it. I know when we had a newborn, if they cried I had breast-milk shooting out of me and almost felt a panic attack. My husband didn't have that. If I left the baby too long I leaked breast-milk and I was a physical pain. I had postpartum anxiety after my kids, but my husband did not. So those things do contribute to how we parent and are not "cultural." It was natures way of telling moms to get back to their babies. Does this mean that Dads and Adoptive moms don't bond, hell no, but we are not robots. Women and men do have differences; we have hormones etc going on that boys do not. I am sorry but labor and pregnancy are very bonding things men do not have. In the "ideal" situation. I put that because someone is going to say, oh so and so didn't bond or about some weird story. ;)

And don't forget http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

That being said stereotypes are still stupid, women may bond with the children during pregnancy and parent differently BUT they can still be wonderful parents, girls still go to work, men can still clean a house etc. Boys can still make good grades at school. I was worried when I went to work, but my husband is a much better stay at home parent than I ever was. And he is not feminine in anyway, we didn't "change" him either. He has other friends who are SAHD's. But bottom line we do have "nature" but we are also civilized.

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I didn't read every response. So if I am repeating anything, sorry.

I do think there is a lot of truth in stereotypes. Men and women are different, we just are. Now that being said it doesn't mean that a Man and woman can't do the same things but they will do them differently. I have 4 boys and 1 girl, that little girl threw me for a loop. She is very diffrent from the boys, now she can throw a ball and is super smart, but she is just different, she likes to dress up is attracted to pink and sits and plays differently. Same toys just she plays differently with them.

Next we had a role reversal, I was a SAHM for years, now I am in premed and my hubby stays home fulltime. He is a wonderful SAHD BUT how he does it is completely different than me. He can stay home with a newborn, but how we parent is different. Yes a Dad can bond, stay home, clean and everything and a mom can go to work, but I think men and women are different creatures and we act differently. I was the only girl in a houseful of boys growing up too. I can play football and get down and dirty with the boys, but the min one of my brothers punched me I was crying.

Some examples of what I mean: I worry more about the kids, playing outside, what the neighbors think, read books, schedule, and everything. My husband doesn't care, he worries about them but if a neighbor said anything to him I think he would tell them to go to hell. He can not do hair, so I do my daughters hair. He can clean but I do deep cleaning my husband either goes nuts cleaning something silly like detailing the fridge or he orders the kids ot clean it and vacuums. I menu planned everything, my husband tried to grill everything, skipping veggies. I had to explain to him we need veggies too. I ironed the kids clothes, my husband has everyone dress in their clothes before bed and rolls them out of bed.

He also is bonded differently to the kids. I am married to a WONDERFUL man, and he is better than most but we do things very differently. And being we have broken most stereotypes, it is ok to point those differences out. Those differences never got in the way of our dreams and goals, but if we act like women and men are completely the same instead of realizing we have different things each has to overcome to reach those goals we are setting our kids up for failure. Just my 2 cents, take it or leave it. ;)

Is "we just are" now a compelling argument? If so, I've wasted a lot of time on my graduate thesis.

You and your husband parent differently because you are two different people, not because one of you has a penis and the other has a vagina.

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It doesn't have to do with the mom being single or not, it just has to do with how they are raised. My brother was raised to help clean up around the house too, and our parents are still married.

Oh yes, absolutely. Just in my case, I was a single mom, and so was ex-husband's mom.

It's kind of strange to me (grew up in the 70's) that a lot of my friend's mothers were far, far less accepting of any slack from their husbands/male sons than many mothers are today.

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It's kind of strange to me (grew up in the 70's) that a lot of my friend's mothers were far, far less accepting of any slack from their husbands/male sons than many mothers are today.

I do agree here. I think most of us who are active on this site agree that if you live in a household you pitch in. But I've also seen people who seem to think that if the husband does anything around the house, cares for the kids, they are OMG AMAZING and can never ever be put down for anything that they do.

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It's kind of strange to me (grew up in the 70's) that a lot of my friend's mothers were far, far less accepting of any slack from their husbands/male sons than many mothers are today.

I've noticed this too. A lot of people my age (early-mid 20s) seem to "accept" those gendered roles a bit more (although few of these women would, say, give up their careers or quash an interest in the STEM fields in order to be a submissive fundie-style SAHM). I wonder if it's because in the 60s-70s, people were more optimistic that things were changing (women in the workplace! sexual revolution!), but the sexism that still exists in the mainstream now is more subtle and ingrained. Like people think, ok, we had feminism and my husband still doesn't know how to do dishes, so obviously you need two X-chromosomes to put plates in a dishwasher. It's harder to step back and think about the possibility that said husband was raised in a gendered household by gendered parents, who, even if they were progressive, simply didn't expect a boy to pull as much weight around the house. It's like saying "well, we gave our daughters crayons in every imaginable colour and they still like pink, so it must be innate", while ignoring the fact that nearly every girls toy available incorporates pink in some way. It's not easy to change societal expectations so quickly, and I guess that leaves some people feeling like those expectations must be based in fact.

It reminds me of people who say that the J'Slaves (or other SAHDs) must be happy because they're all old enough to leave and haven't. They ignore a whole life time of indoctrination, a disturbing lack of life skills, the emotional upset it would cause, etc, and only see the superficial. Likewise, people say "girls must like playing with dolls because I offered my daughters a tonka toy and they rejected it", while ignoring the extensive portrayal of girls and women in the media (and in real life) as carers first and foremost (even in adventure-type shows, the "girl" character is usually the team mom), and ignoring the way people (strangers, even) will encourage them to play with dolls but call them "tomboys" (sometimes derisively) if they prefer toy cars, and ignoring the way they themselves insist that their daughters are different from their sons, as if their perceptions have no effect on their children. You don't get to pretend your not a cult just because your members ostensibly have the right to leave, and you don't get to pretend you're a gender-neutral parent just because you bought your daughter a toy microscope. In pink.

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