What are the perks of submission?

[Full enough quiver]

I guess I should have specified- biblical submission, which is what I assume is the goal for fundie couples, involves the man taking the leadership role. (not that women can't take the leadership role. In my case, I don't want it) The critical part that they miss is the part about husbands loving their wives. I never said we were doing it right while everyone else was wrong. We have arrived at a model for marriage that works for us, by mutual consent. If you never know anything different, and believe you will go to hell if you don't do marriage this way, then you aren't consenting. That is my big issue with fundie submission. People can do whatever they want, my way is by no means the only way, or the best way. But it is the best way for us. I will be encouraging my girls to know what they want before they get married. My older girl is like me, easygoing and more of a follower. She wants to be a sahm. I will encourage her to be very careful who she marries, because natures like ours can be taken advantage of by the wrong person. Also, she needs to have a skill to fall back on, just in case. College isn't for everyone, but she needs to have some way to support herself in case her husband dies, or becomes disabled, or becomes an abusive asshole. Younger daughter is much more of a leader. She is super smart, and takes crap from no one. She says she wants to travel the world with her adopted children. She wants to study oceanography. Both are perfectly legitimate ways to live. I personally would be miserable as a go getter career woman. I'm sure some of you would be miserable living like I do. Different strokes for different folks.

[2xx1xy1JD]

If you had asked my parents, they would both have said that in a marriage the man is ultimately the one in charge. However, my dad was a kind and reasonable person who took my mother's wishes into account. I don't think my mother was trying to avoid responsibility for her own life. She had been taught, and sincerely believed, that this was the way things should be.

This kind of thinking can leave a woman very vulnerable, though. My mom didn't work after she was married, and my dad handled all the finances. When my dad had to go into the hospital, all of us kids were surprised she that didn't know even basic information about the bills and bank accounts. She would have been an easy target for a scammer.

Once upon a time, I worked for a government agency that handled the affairs of people who were not mentally capable of handling their finances themselves.

We noticed that a number of widows would be deemed mentally incapable of taking care of their finances. Part of the standard screening was to ask about bank accounts, bills, etc. There were women who were still able to manage basic personal care for themselves, who had no idea of how to manage finances after a husband passed away.

[burntnorton]

My older girl is like me, easygoing and more of a follower. She wants to be a sahm. I will encourage her to be very careful who she marries, because natures like ours can be taken advantage of by the wrong person. Also, she needs to have a skill to fall back on, just in case. College isn't for everyone, but she needs to have some way to support herself in case her husband dies, or becomes disabled, or becomes an abusive asshole. Younger daughter is much more of a leader. She is super smart, and takes crap from no one. She says she wants to travel the world with her adopted children. She wants to study oceanography. Both are perfectly legitimate ways to live. I personally would be miserable as a go getter career woman. I'm sure some of you would be miserable living like I do. Different strokes for different folks.

I hesitated to respond because what I have to say sounds harsh. Bluntly, your elder daughter needs to learn to stand up for herself and use her voice before she marries anyone. No matter how well you think you've chosen your spouse, you don't know what he or she will be like one, five, or ten years in. You don't know what having children, losing a parent, or any other of the myriad stresses and changes of life will do. No one should EVER be in a position where they have to rely on their spouse not take advantage of them in order to not be taken advantage of.

And while there is nothing wrong with wanting to be a SAHM, that isn't a career and it isn't something that is completely up to her to determine. She doesn't know when she'll find a husband (or if she will). She doesn't know how he will feel about her staying home. She also doesn't know whether she'll like it. She doesn't need just something to fall back on. She needs to build a life for herself as an adult where she can be happy being the person she will be regardless of whether the whole SAHM thing works out. That doesn't mean she needs a corporate career or a profession or a college education. It just means she needs to build a life that is a life and not just an extended waiting period for her "real life" as a SAHM to start. I always wanted marriage and children and ruled out some careers (foreign service) because I saw th@4t the prospects for building that kind/ of life were slim, but if marriage and kids hadn't happened, I would have been happy and fulfilled in the career and life I did choose. You should encourage your daughters to do the same.

Finally, referring to those of us with careers as go-getter career women is condescending and ignorant. We "career women" have no more in common with each other than you have with all SAHMs or that "career men" have with each other. Some of us are laid back, some hard charging, some live to work, some work to live, and most of us fall somewhere in the middle. Besides, I suspect you would never use the phrase "career men" because you would consider vBulletin the "career" to be an almost completely unhelpful modifier, as men are presumed to have careers. Well, for many, if not most, of us,it's the same for "career women".

[mg78]

I guess I should have specified- biblical submission, which is what I assume is the goal for fundie couples, involves the man taking the leadership role. (not that women can't take the leadership role. In my case, I don't want it) The critical part that they miss is the part about husbands loving their wives. I never said we were doing it right while everyone else was wrong. We have arrived at a model for marriage that works for us, by mutual consent. If you never know anything different, and believe you will go to hell if you don't do marriage this way, then you aren't consenting. That is my big issue with fundie submission. People can do whatever they want, my way is by no means the only way, or the best way. But it is the best way for us. I will be encouraging my girls to know what they want before they get married. My older girl is like me, easygoing and more of a follower. She wants to be a sahm. I will encourage her to be very careful who she marries, because natures like ours can be taken advantage of by the wrong person. Also, she needs to have a skill to fall back on, just in case. College isn't for everyone, but she needs to have some way to support herself in case her husband dies, or becomes disabled, or becomes an abusive asshole. Younger daughter is much more of a leader. She is super smart, and takes crap from no one. She says she wants to travel the world with her adopted children. She wants to study oceanography. Both are perfectly legitimate ways to live. I personally would be miserable as a go getter career woman. I'm sure some of you would be miserable living like I do. Different strokes for different folks.

I do not see any problem with your lifestyle. As you have posted, you have chosen this way of living and you are happy living this way. Also, it looks like you know about the dangers of this kind of lifestyle and you are encouraging your daughters to attend college and have an open mind. Just keep doing these.

[takers401]

I find the bolded statement a bit contradictory (not exactly the word I'm looking for, but it'll do) for what FreeJinger fights for. A woman being able to chose for herself the life she wants, rather than patriarchy defining the singular lifestyle she can have. If the daughter wants to be a SAHM, and does so without pressure from her parents that that's all she's good for/her only place in life to be good Christian, then why can't she build a life that would support her goals of being a SAHM? I see your point about her goals requiring that her potential future husband also has the same goals, but if she truly wants to be a SAHM wouldn't she steer clear of men who don't want that?

[TheLurkingFrumper]

I think that the definition and examples of submission in this thread are very narrow and incomplete. The focus seems to be on the physical rolls people take in the family when "submitting," but I would argue that Biblical submission has less to do with stereotypical gender roles and more to do with the development of humility and strength of will. These are character traits and have little to do with who changes the diapers vs. who changes the oil.

Ephesians 5 is where all that stuff about submission is found. Preceding the verses about submissions, is a call to live a wise life in which you carefully evaluate various aspects of your life and choose moderation over excess. This is an important context for the verses about submission. The verse right before "wives submit yourselves to your husbands" is "submit to one another out of reverence for Christ." In other words, the wise Christian, in humility, submits themselves to all other Christian, regardless of gender (or whether you're married to them). All Christians are called to submit as a way to grow spiritually; to become less focused on your own wants and desires and more focused on the needs of other; submission is a vehicle to grow in compassion and prayerfulness. There is great benefit to being able to consider another words thoughtfully, rather than react from pride. Submission is as simple as pausing to think before you respond in conversation. If submission is not mutual, it is not Biblical.

As for gender roles, a lot of the fundies quote Proverbs 31. However, the Proverb's 31 woman clearly works outside the home. What struck me when reading this Proverb is the verse, " She considers a field and buys it." Not she prays about it, not she asks her husband if she can, but she see a good deal and she acts. This woman that is played up as a meek housewife is out in the world making business transactions without her spouse. "She makes linen garments and sells them, and supplies the merchants with sashes . . ." The Proverbs 31 woman is a woman of brains and action who does not consult her husband on all things. The argument could be made that her submission comes in doing what is best for her family and putting them first. She works in the world, for her family. She is wise, compassionate, not prone to excess; these are hallmarks of Biblical submission.

Without considering the spiritual aspect of submission, submission either becomes abusive and destructive, or it becomes that one book, which I can't remember right now. You know, the one about how to manipulate your husband by pretending your dumb so he feels manly? They advise to purposefully install a Dixie cup-holder upside down so he can fix it and feel manly. And to stamp your foot and toss your hair when your mad?

Anyway, the point of this whole long thing is any discussion about submission that lacks the spiritual aspects and purposes of submission and only focuses on the material aspect is incomplete.

[valsa]

Anyway, the point of this whole long thing is any discussion about submission that lacks the spiritual aspects and purposes of submission and only focuses on the material aspect is incomplete.

Do we have a vomiting smilie? I feel like I need a vomiting smilie.

[burntnorton]

I find the bolded statement a bit contradictory (not exactly the word I'm looking for, but it'll do) for what FreeJinger fights for. A woman being able to chose for herself the life she wants, rather than patriarchy defining the singular lifestyle she can have. If the daughter wants to be a SAHM, and does so without pressure from her parents that that's all she's good for/her only place in life to be good Christian, then why can't she build a life that would support her goals of being a SAHM? I see your point about her goals requiring that her potential future husband also has the same goals, but if she truly wants to be a SAHM wouldn't she steer clear of men who don't want that?

There's nothing wrong with building a life that would enable her to be a SAHM. There is something very, very wrong with putting all your effort and all your identity into being a SAHM. For one thing, it tends to lead you to make bad choices about who you marry, either in the name of marrying early or not missing your last chance to achieve that goal. But the larger problem is it leads to depression and frustration if it doesn't happen right away. It creates a mindset where your real life and real adulthood don't start until you get married. Then as the years go by and it hasn't happened, you begin to question your worth. Everyone should build their lives in a way that they are happy and proud of who they are and where they are, even if they never achieve all their goals.

[TheLurkingFrumper]

Do we have a vomiting smilie? I feel like I need a vomiting smilie.

“Looking at the past must only be a means of understanding more clearly what and who they are so that they can more wisely build the future.â€

― Paulo Freire, Pedagogy of the Oppressed

Also paraphrasing Freire, no one can liberate another person, each person must liberate themselves. That can only happen when you are willing to enter into dialogue with the oppressed. Dialogue in the Freirian sense is not merely speaking, but it is coming into the conversation understanding that you are fully human and the person with which you are dialoguing is fully human; you are equals. Any hint that you, be by belief or wealth, are superior to them inhibits any true dialogue and inhibits the oppressed's ability to liberate themselves. You cannot through the oppression of perceived superiority become a liberator of minds.

The purpose of this thread seemed to be an honest question about the benefits of submission. I was merely pointing out that the conversation at hand was narrow and incomplete because it fails to account for the fact the Christianity is a religion and it's main goals, in all thing, are spiritual development. I apologize if that makes you want to vomit. I thought we were having a conversation.

Apparently this thread is just to make ourselves feel better about ourselves by professing our superiority through vomiting smilies. My mistake.

Edited for type-os

[formergothardite]

I think that the definition and examples of submission in this thread are very narrow and incomplete. The focus seems to be on the physical rolls people take in the family when "submitting," but I would argue that Biblical submission has less to do with stereotypical gender roles and more to do with the development of humility and strength of will. These are character traits and have little to do with who changes the diapers vs. who changes the oil.

Ephesians 5 is where all that stuff about submission is found. Preceding the verses about submissions, is a call to live a wise life in which you carefully evaluate various aspects of your life and choose moderation over excess. This is an important context for the verses about submission. The verse right before "wives submit yourselves to your husbands" is "submit to one another out of reverence for Christ." In other words, the wise Christian, in humility, submits themselves to all other Christian, regardless of gender (or whether you're married to them). All Christians are called to submit as a way to grow spiritually; to become less focused on your own wants and desires and more focused on the needs of other; submission is a vehicle to grow in compassion and prayerfulness. There is great benefit to being able to consider another words thoughtfully, rather than react from pride. Submission is as simple as pausing to think before you respond in conversation. If submission is not mutual, it is not Biblical.

As for gender roles, a lot of the fundies quote Proverbs 31. However, the Proverb's 31 woman clearly works outside the home. What struck me when reading this Proverb is the verse, " She considers a field and buys it." Not she prays about it, not she asks her husband if she can, but she see a good deal and she acts. This woman that is played up as a meek housewife is out in the world making business transactions without her spouse. "She makes linen garments and sells them, and supplies the merchants with sashes . . ." The Proverbs 31 woman is a woman of brains and action who does not consult her husband on all things. The argument could be made that her submission comes in doing what is best for her family and putting them first. She works in the world, for her family. She is wise, compassionate, not prone to excess; these are hallmarks of Biblical submission.

Without considering the spiritual aspect of submission, submission either becomes abusive and destructive, or it becomes that one book, which I can't remember right now. You know, the one about how to manipulate your husband by pretending your dumb so he feels manly? They advise to purposefully install a Dixie cup-holder upside down so he can fix it and feel manly. And to stamp your foot and toss your hair when your mad?

Anyway, the point of this whole long thing is any discussion about submission that lacks the spiritual aspects and purposes of submission and only focuses on the material aspect is incomplete.

Bullshit.

Let's look at the whole passage about wives:

Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

Nothing in this passage about men and women being equal and both being the head of the house. Nope. Not there. Husbands are the head of the wife and wives submit. If it meant what you claim it means it would say that both men and women are the head of the house just as Christ is the head of the church so just as the church submits to Christ, husbands and wives should submit to each other.

[valsa]

There's nothing wrong with building a life that would enable her to be a SAHM. There is something very, very wrong with putting all your effort and all your identity into being a SAHM.

Agreed. First of all, there's no guarantee this girl will ever find a husband. Next, even if this girl found a husband, there's no guarantee she'll find a husband during her child-bearing years. Even if she found a husband during her child-bearing years, there's no guarantee she'll find a husband who will support her being a SAHM. Even if she found a husband during her child-bearing years who supported her being a SAHM, there's no guarantee that her husband would be able to financially support their family for that whole time. Even if she found a husband during her child-bearing years who supported her being a SAHM and would be able to financially support their family that entire time, there's no guarantee that both of them will be fertile. Even if she found a husband during her child-bearing years who supported her being a SAHM and would be able to financially support their family the entire time and they were both willing to adopt in a case of infertility, there's no guarantee they'd be able to get a child. And so it goes- her husband would have to not leave her or become disabled or die early.

[valsa]

Apparently this thread is just to make ourselves feel better about ourselves by professing our superiority through vomiting smilies. My mistake.

I think your mistake was not understanding that this entire board exists to point and laugh at people who believe women should submit to men for spiritual reasons.

[TheLurkingFrumper]

Bullshit.

Let's look at the whole passage about wives:

Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

Nothing in this passage about men and women being equal and both being the head of the house. Nope. Not there. Husbands are the head of the wife and wives submit. If it meant what you claim it means it would say that both men and women are the head of the house just as Christ is the head of the church so just as the church submits to Christ, husbands and wives should submit to each other.

I never said there was. I said the previous verse, "21 Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ." Indicates that, regardless of who is head of house, all Christians are required to submit to each other. Husband and wife both being Christian, the husband also has a duty as a Christian to submit to his wife as a fellow Christian.

[formergothardite]

If the husband is the head of the house then he isn't submitting to his wife.

[formergothardite]

I guess I should have specified- biblical submission, which is what I assume is the goal for fundie couples, involves the man taking the leadership role. (not that women can't take the leadership role. In my case, I don't want it) The critical part that they miss is the part about husbands loving their wives. I never said we were doing it right while everyone else was wrong. We have arrived at a model for marriage that works for us, by mutual consent. If you never know anything different, and believe you will go to hell if you don't do marriage this way, then you aren't consenting. That is my big issue with fundie submission. People can do whatever they want, my way is by no means the only way, or the best way. But it is the best way for us. I will be encouraging my girls to know what they want before they get married. My older girl is like me, easygoing and more of a follower. She wants to be a sahm. I will encourage her to be very careful who she marries, because natures like ours can be taken advantage of by the wrong person. Also, she needs to have a skill to fall back on, just in case. College isn't for everyone, but she needs to have some way to support herself in case her husband dies, or becomes disabled, or becomes an abusive asshole. Younger daughter is much more of a leader. She is super smart, and takes crap from no one. She says she wants to travel the world with her adopted children. She wants to study oceanography. Both are perfectly legitimate ways to live. I personally would be miserable as a go getter career woman. I'm sure some of you would be miserable living like I do. Different strokes for different folks.

So what would you do with an easy going son who is a follower and doesn't want to work when he has kids? Would you make it clear to your son that he might be miserable as a career man and it is perfectly legitimate for him to have being a SAHD as his life plan? Do you actually use the term career man? Or is it just women?

[TheLurkingFrumper]

I think your mistake was not understanding that this entire board exists to point and laugh at people who believe women should submit to men for spiritual reasons.

No, I understand that quite well. I often laugh at them too. However, there were some thoughtful post here and some people indicated an impetus of actually trying to understand why people buy into such things. The flaw of having a mainly atheist board to discuss religion and a board culture that chases off most people who are not, is that you cannot come to a real understanding of the motivating forces behind the movement. I am often struck but how many people here often seem to want to help these women. However, if you are unwilling to look at an issue in it's whole context, you will be unable to do so.

[TheLurkingFrumper]

If the husband is the head of the house then he isn't submitting to his wife.

Why?

[formergothardite]

What does being the head of the house mean to you Lurking Frumper? Maybe it means men and women are equals in all way to you and that is how you can say husbands can submit and still lead the house? But then one has to wonder what is it about women that makes them unable to lead the house? They lack an all mighty penis?

But in life, if there is a leader, then the leader gets to make the final decision. The leader will get input from the people submitting to him, but the final decision comes down to the leader and the people submitting have to obey. So that is why the husband can't be the head of the house(leader) and submit to his wife at the same time. Because the act of submitting and followering her means that he is no longer leading or the head.

[valsa]

No, I understand that quite well. I often laugh at them too. However, there were some thoughtful post here and some people indicated an impetus of actually trying to understand why people buy into such things. The flaw of having a mainly atheist board to discuss religion and a board culture that chases off most people who are not, is that you cannot come to a real understanding of the motivating forces behind the movement. I am often struck but how many people here often seem to want to help these women. However, if you are unwilling to look at an issue in it's whole context, you will be unable to do so.

Yes, because we're all atheists here :roll:

[formergothardite]

It is pretty clear from the start that fundies aren't going to get hugs and snuggles here. I was raised fundie, I already know what motivates the movement. It is mostly a hatred of women(and people who are gay).

[TheLurkingFrumper]

It is pretty clear from the start that fundies aren't going to get hugs and snuggles here. I was raised fundie, I already know what motivates the movement. It is mostly a hatred of women(and people who are gay).

I agree that it is a movement of hatred and I am the very farthest thing from a fundie. And I was not looking for hugs and snugs, merely intelligent conversation. Having done some (not extensive by any means) work with women escaping some similar situations, I was curious how the spiritual aspect would be considered here, and the role it does play in Christian spirituality, since it is a key issue for women is these types of situations. And simply telling them its bullshit does not help them.

But there is a reason I mainly lurk and have low post count, I just forgot it in this moment. I forget I haven't time or patience to deal with the vomiting smiling crowd. I shall go back to being horrified by naked roast sitter.

[TheLurkingFrumper]

What does being the head of the house mean to you Lurking Frumper? Maybe it means men and women are equals in all way to you and that is how you can say husbands can submit and still lead the house? But then one has to wonder what is it about women that makes them unable to lead the house? They lack an all mighty penis?

But in life, if there is a leader, then the leader gets to make the final decision. The leader will get input from the people submitting to him, but the final decision comes down to the leader and the people submitting have to obey. So that is why the husband can't be the head of the house(leader) and submit to his wife at the same time. Because the act of submitting and followering her means that he is no longer leading or the head.

So, the moment a man submits to his wife, he loses his place as head of household? Does it happen if he submits just one time? Or is three enough? Does four do it? One of the definitions of submission is compliant. So, the moment a husband agrees with his wife, he has lost his place?

[valsa]

I was curious how the spiritual aspect would be considered here, and the role it does play in Christian spirituality, since it is a key issue for women is these types of situations.

It's not key, it's an excuse.

It's impossible to follow every guideline in the Bible, that's why people cherry pick it. The women who choose to follow the submission portions of the Bible are only using it to fulfill some other desire of their's, such as not wanting to take responsibility for things like a goddamn adult. Spirituality isn't a foundation for submission, it's a cover for whatever real reason women want to submit. If it wasn't, they'd just ignore it like the hundreds of other parts of the Bible they don't follow.

[alysee]

It's not key, it's an excuse.

It's impossible to follow every guideline in the Bible, that's why people cherry pick it. The women who choose to follow the submission portions of the Bible are only using it to fulfill some other desire of their's, such as not wanting to take responsibility for things like a goddamn adult. Spirituality isn't a foundation for submission, it's a cover for whatever real reason women want to submit. If it wasn't, they'd just ignore it like the hundreds of other parts of the Bible they don't follow.

THIS!

[salex]

Without considering the spiritual aspect of submission, submission either becomes abusive and destructive, or it becomes that one book, which I can't remember right now. You know, the one about how to manipulate your husband by pretending your dumb so he feels manly? They advise to purposefully install a Dixie cup-holder upside down so he can fix it and feel manly. And to stamp your foot and toss your hair when your mad?

Fascinating Womanhood?