What are the perks of submission?

[guidedbybobafett]

Sometimes I do wish I could submit or just be a fundie so I wouldn't have to deal with life. It's hard juggling everything, paying bills, ect. I think that's why they do it. Of course for me, the cure is worse than the illness.

Yeah, I have definitely had moments where I've thought "What if I could just stay home and decorate my house and make bread? That would be so much better than going to work!"

I come to my senses eventually, and realize that this attitude is, in a way, harmful and unfair to SAHM's. I don't have any children or pets, I live in an 800 SF apartment with my boyfriend, and we have enough money to not only make ends meet but also to do fun things. I think that staying home and taking care of babies and cooking would be a different kind of stress, and maybe one that I want, but I don't think idealizing it is fair. Of course, I also blame all of their perfect blogs. :evil:

[Full enough quiver]

I would say I'm pretty submissive to my husband. I do the cooking, cleaning, laundry, and childcare. He helps if im sick or something, but i do 90% of it. (I work two days a week, to keep my skills up) He speaks for us when we are out in public (Im pathologically shy) I leave the major decisions up to him. I ask his opinion on things. He is 19 years older than I am, and likes traditional gender roles. He likes being "in charge", being the manly man who takes care of and protects his wife and daughters. Fortunately, I enjoy being a "keeper at home", so this works for us. We've been together almost 5 years, and it took 3 years for me to figure out that I can disagree with him. Because he's a good man, he's helped me to be more outspoken at home (he's probably sorry, because now I give him a hard time), and he is probably the only man that doesn't terrify me. I grew up thinking that men were bigger than I was, and would hurt me if they could. My husband saw me as someone he needed to protect. I had never felt safe before, and I enjoyed the feeling of safety I got from him. When we first got married, I think I needed him more than loved him. I love him now, but it took time for me to stop seeing him as a father figure, and more as an equal. I feel sorry for fundie girls who never reach that point. These poor girls are mentally and physically abused, and made to feel that the world isn't safe. Even god is a scary guy who will punish you if you mess up. The idea of being protected from the world by daddy, and then husband is appealing. There's also the never being allowed a childhood, yet being considered a child until marriage. Submission to husband instead of father, with fewer children to look after (at least at first) is probably appealing too.

[kpmom]

Full enough quiver, do you really see your situation as different from the fundy girls and women you feel sorry for?

[norabrie]

Yeah, I have definitely had moments where I've thought "What if I could just stay home and decorate my house and make bread? That would be so much better than going to work!"

I come to my senses eventually, and realize that this attitude is, in a way, harmful and unfair to SAHM's. I don't have any children or pets, I live in an 800 SF apartment with my boyfriend, and we have enough money to not only make ends meet but also to do fun things. I think that staying home and taking care of babies and cooking would be a different kind of stress, and maybe one that I want, but I don't think idealizing it is fair. Of course, I also blame all of their perfect blogs. :evil:

I also think it's more in how you act than what you do.. I'm a SAHM and do 90% of childcare, as well as pretty much 100% of cooking, cleaning, shopping, chores, while my husband has two jobs to support us. But when it comes to our relationship, we make decisions together and have equal weight and input. Wayyyyy OT but kind of to what you were mentioning, I do feel like SOME SAHM's kind of play up the amount of stress we have to make the choice seem more valid. Working moms do everything I do while having a job, and I have a ton of respect for them.

I can't imagine being in this position though and being essentially trapped to my husband's will.

[Full enough quiver]

I think there are two key differences. The first is that my husband actually respects my opinion, and encourages and supports me more than most fundie men. Although he is the leader in our home, he leads with love. He doesn't demand my respect, he earns it. He is also self aware enough to work together on issues that affect our marriage. The second difference is that I have a marketable skill. I'm an lvn. I choose to work 2 days a week, because we both prefer for me to keep the house running and be available to pick the kids up from school. Two days keeps my skills up, keeps me from getting bored, and gives me spending money. But I could work more if I had to. Unlike the "college minus" graduates, I have options.

[Joan of Snarc]

snip

His response? "Who was the first person to see the risen Lord? It was a woman! Ah-ha, see? We honor women!"

I said, "Then why no women priests?"

His response - summarized - "Being a priest is no honor, it's a responsibility, a chore, a burden,..." etc.

Sounds like The White Man's Burden....

:roll:

[AVENues]

The perks of submission? No idea. That they are fed and sheltered? Sometimes fed with 3 course rice meals, and sheltered in a pop up, though. And they don't have to think because men that can't provide for sh** and cannot put whole sentences together and lack proper education are obviously much wiser and smarter and more mature. Just because they have male genital organs. Right. So, these submissive wives theoretically are not obliged to think, right? I wish though, that they would not try thinking as a hobby - and blog their "thoughts" before the entire world.

[RosyDaisy]

I can't think of a single perk. Being a submissive to me means to remain in a child like state and depending on someone else for your basic needs. There are no perks there that I can see.

[Micah]

My parents have been married for thirty two years and are as much in love now as when they met (which was in a seperationist Seventh Day Adventist community, ie a cult). Mum is very submissive. Dad has always made the major decisions and up until recently when he had to retire due to injury, he was always the bread winner, while Mum stayed at home and home schooled the kids. Mum is now doing a nursing degree and working in aged care, first time in her life she's worked.

It's worked for them. It used to frustrate me when Mum would shrug and smile and say, "Dad wouldn't like me to do that." But Mum is one of the happiest, kindest people I know. She is basically what most of the fundie bloggers aspire to be and will never reach. She never has a judgmental word to say about anyone. She homeschooled us kids up until high school without the use of plumbing line. I have a certificate in hospitality, my brother is completing year 12 and my sister got early admission to university.

I am a SAHM. I do 99% of the housework. I work three nights a week, just for something to do. But I also handle all the finances and my other half would be the first to tell you I am far from submissive. I handle the finances because other half has NO head for money at all. I do everything else because he works fourteen hour days to support his family and I don't care how outdated and 'unfair' some people might view it, but I don't expect him to come home and do housework as well. Not when I'm home all day.

[Hane]

I think there are two key differences. The first is that my husband actually respects my opinion, and encourages and supports me more than most fundie men. Although he is the leader in our home, he leads with love. He doesn't demand my respect, he earns it. He is also self aware enough to work together on issues that affect our marriage. The second difference is that I have a marketable skill. I'm an lvn. I choose to work 2 days a week, because we both prefer for me to keep the house running and be available to pick the kids up from school. Two days keeps my skills up, keeps me from getting bored, and gives me spending money. But I could work more if I had to. Unlike the "college minus" graduates, I have options.

I think that fundies invested in the "submissive wife" thing simply assume that Full enough quiver's husband is the "default" of male personalities: a loving leader who respects his wife--that "all" men are "really" like that, or could be if these "feministic" women weren't such rip-roaring bitches.

Yet another case of their being limited by black-and-white thinking. Full enough quiver's marriage model works ideally for her and her husband. Both are happy. He may be the leader, but he isn't the dictator. It's far from a Ken-and-Lori relationship.

Full enough quiver and her husband, by mutual consent, have arrived at a model that works--for them. Anyone with critical thinking skills and a knowledge of human psychology will know that no one model works for every couple.

[sacrilicious]

I think that fundies invested in the "submissive wife" thing simply assume that Full enough quiver's husband is the "default" of male personalities: a loving leader who respects his wife--that "all" men are "really" like that, or could be if these "feministic" women weren't such rip-roaring bitches.

Yet another case of their being limited by black-and-white thinking. Full enough quiver's marriage model works ideally for her and her husband. Both are happy. He may be the leader, but he isn't the dictator. It's far from a Ken-and-Lori relationship.

Full enough quiver and her husband, by mutual consent, have arrived at a model that works--for them. Anyone with critical thinking skills and a knowledge of human psychology will know that no one model works for every couple.

^^I agree, I think that is definitely part of it. IF you have a good husband who takes your thoughts and feelings into account it is going to be a completely different situation than one in which the husband blatantly ignored his wife's wishes. I am sure it also depends on what degree of submission you are talking about. For instance, does the wife choose how to dress herself and style her own hair, choose what to cook and how to decorate and clean the house, etc? Does she also get to give input on financial decisions but leaves the final say to her husband and that is their version of submission? I don't think Michelle Duggar gets that amount of independence since there seem to be a lot of comments on how Jim Boob likes her hair a certain way and it even seems to extend to the adult daughters. :?

While that wouldn't be ideal for me, I can kind of see how it might work for some families. There are things that my husband defers to my judgement on and areas where I defer to his, but it's not a set arrangement as it usually happens by default based on who knows more about the situation or who has the strongest feelings about it. Although... I am shy and tend to over analyze things so there is a part of me that sometimes wouldn't mind letting someone else make all the important decisions while I hang out at home and bake bread, ykwim?

I've also known and worked with a couple that belonged to a religion where the husband was the head of the family, and they claimed that this was the case. However--getting to know them the way I did I could see that the wife made most of the decisions. She was much older than the husband so it was almost like he looked up to her as a mother figure to make the decisions. I also seemed to see a lot of manipulation happening, even small things on a daily basis. :roll: I guess it worked for them, not so much for me, however, but that's a different story. I could see other fundie wives being "submissive" this way, too.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I don't see an arrangement where one spouse basically says, "you are in charge of X and I trust you with it" to necessarily be submissive. It may simply be a matter of delegating tasks and dealing with their own strengths and personalities.

Submission seems to be more about the idea that the husband has the right, simply because he is the husband, to have the final word in the house, despite any disagreement from the wife. If you feel that you would be out of line to directly disagree with your husband, even if it was done respectfully in private, then you are in a submissive relationship.

[salex]

Submission seems to be more about the idea that the husband has the right, simply because he is the husband, to have the final word in the house, despite any disagreement from the wife. If you feel that you would be out of line to directly disagree with your husband, even if it was done respectfully in private, then you are in a submissive relationship.

Exactly! Well put.

[debrand]

I don't see an arrangement where one spouse basically says, "you are in charge of X and I trust you with it" to necessarily be submissive. It may simply be a matter of delegating tasks and dealing with their own strengths and personalities.

Submission seems to be more about the idea that the husband has the right, simply because he is the husband, to have the final word in the house, despite any disagreement from the wife. If you feel that you would be out of line to directly disagree with your husband, even if it was done respectfully in private, then you are in a submissive relationship.

Delegation is not the same thing as submission. Sometimes one person is better at a task than their spouse. However, even in these instances, the other spouse should be made aware of what is going on so that they can help with decisions regarding that task. For example, if a wife is better at the budget, she and her husband still need to sit down and discuss how much is in the bank and where the money is going.

[debrand]

Submission seems to be more about the idea that the husband has the right, simply because he is the husband, to have the final word in the house, despite any disagreement from the wife. If you feel that you would be out of line to directly disagree with your husband, even if it was done respectfully in private, then you are in a submissive relationship.

Exactly! Well put.

Submission is also about turning the husband into a minigod because like god, their followers are supposed to blindly trust them.

Strangely enough there is no punishment in the bible for women who don't follow their husband's leadership. Somewhere in the book of Peter it states that god won't hear the prayers of men who don't respect their wives.

[Full enough quiver]

One thing I would never, ever, do is tell other women they have to live like I do in order to be happy, or be a good wife. Some of these women, like Lori doth protest too much, methinks. If it works for you, and your family, then great. Everyone is different. Not every woman is comfortable in, or good at taking a supporting role. Not every man wants to, or is capable of leading. I got very very lucky that while my husband is far from perfect, he is not a patriarchal asshole like Ken or the PP, who, in my opinion don't really understand what submission is supposed to be. It's not about the man being this all powerful dictator, while his wife is a long suffering doormat. It's about the man taking on the burden of providing for his family financially, but also keeping them safe and cared for, and handling things outside the home. The wife's job is to create a warm, inviting home, where the husband can lay down his burdens at the end of a long day, where he can come home to a clean house, a hot meal, and a happy wife and children. It isn't about him being better because he has a penis, or being a god. Its about each person performing different, but equally important roles. I don't think my marriage is perfect, there is plenty we could work on, but we try to live close to this model. Its not for everyone, but it works for us.

[turquoise]

If you had asked my parents, they would both have said that in a marriage the man is ultimately the one in charge. However, my dad was a kind and reasonable person who took my mother's wishes into account. I don't think my mother was trying to avoid responsibility for her own life. She had been taught, and sincerely believed, that this was the way things should be.

This kind of thinking can leave a woman very vulnerable, though. My mom didn't work after she was married, and my dad handled all the finances. When my dad had to go into the hospital, all of us kids were surprised she that didn't know even basic information about the bills and bank accounts. She would have been an easy target for a scammer.

[Hane]

On the other side of the token, how much pressure is on the men in this culture to provide financially, spiritually, emotionally etc (that is, if the do care about their family). I couldn't imagine the stress to feed an ever growing family on what is usually a very small salary. On top of that they have to make all the decisions not only for themselves but for another adult human being as well.

Patriarchy screws the men almost as much as the women!

To quote my late mother, who stopped working outside the home to be a SAHM when I was born, "Everybody wants to give a man a medal if he washes a dish or changes a diaper, but, when wives get jobs to help support their families, it's all, 'She's doing it for 'personal fulfillment."' I think, nowadays, these guys oughta kneel down and kiss you girls' asses." I had the great satisfaction of repeating this quotation at her eulogy (and it was made all the sweeter because the service was crashed by the uninvited Ex-Mr.-Hane-#2, who had to sit there and listen to it).

By the time I started working fulltime in 1980 (office job at the phone company), women's jobs were morphing from "a few extra bucks to save for the kids' college" to "absolutely essential for the operation of the household.' Lots of the gals were married to self-employed guys who depended on us to supply medical benefits.

[Jinger Jar]

This kind of thinking can leave a woman very vulnerable, though. My mom didn't work after she was married, and my dad handled all the finances. When my dad had to go into the hospital, all of us kids were surprised she that didn't know even basic information about the bills and bank accounts. She would have been an easy target for a scammer.

The folks whose farm abutted my grandparents' place had a modern fundie dream marriage back in the 40s, 50s and 60s. She raised the children, sewed, cooked, and kept an immaculate home. He ran their farm, handled all of the finances - personal and farm-related - and was the point-person for the outside world. She didn't know how to drive - had never had a driver's license, in fact - or write a check or employ a farmhand or work with an insurance agent.

The husband died very suddenly sometime in the mid-1970's, after their children had grown and moved away. I have vivid memories of my grandparents sitting at Mrs. Smith's kitchen table helping her sort through bank statements, insurance information, payroll, veterinarian bills, and farm equipment payment agreements and explaining what all of it meant to her. My grandparents oversaw operations at her farm in addition to their own awhile, every month grandpa went over to her place to help her pay bills, and my grandma drove Mrs. Smith into town for doctor's appointments, grocery shopping, and errands for several years. Eventually she sold up and moved to live with one of her kids. But in the interim if it hadn't been for my grandparents she easily could have been taken advantage of by a shady farm hand or insurance agent or livestock auction manager.

[ADoyle90815]

If you had asked my parents, they would both have said that in a marriage the man is ultimately the one in charge. However, my dad was a kind and reasonable person who took my mother's wishes into account. I don't think my mother was trying to avoid responsibility for her own life. She had been taught, and sincerely believed, that this was the way things should be.

This kind of thinking can leave a woman very vulnerable, though. My mom didn't work after she was married, and my dad handled all the finances. When my dad had to go into the hospital, all of us kids were surprised she that didn't know even basic information about the bills and bank accounts. She would have been an easy target for a scammer.

That's true, in fact my grandma fell for a scam after my grandpa died because she quit working after she started having children, and left all handling of the finances to my grandpa. Now, my uncle and one of her nephews who live close stop by to help her with the finances. Other than the time she was the target of a scammer, her brain is healthier than the rest of her body. She always had a driver's license, and her own car to run errands with while my grandpa was at work.

[formergothardite]

One thing I would never, ever, do is tell other women they have to live like I do in order to be happy, or be a good wife. Some of these women, like Lori doth protest too much, methinks. If it works for you, and your family, then great. Everyone is different. Not every woman is comfortable in, or good at taking a supporting role. Not every man wants to, or is capable of leading. I got very very lucky that while my husband is far from perfect, he is not a patriarchal asshole like Ken or the PP, who, in my opinion don't really understand what submission is supposed to be. It's not about the man being this all powerful dictator, while his wife is a long suffering doormat. It's about the man taking on the burden of providing for his family financially, but also keeping them safe and cared for, and handling things outside the home. The wife's job is to create a warm, inviting home, where the husband can lay down his burdens at the end of a long day, where he can come home to a clean house, a hot meal, and a happy wife and children. It isn't about him being better because he has a penis, or being a god. Its about each person performing different, but equally important roles. I don't think my marriage is perfect, there is plenty we could work on, but we try to live close to this model. Its not for everyone, but it works for us.

First of all, your version of submission really isn't that much better than anyone elses. You just got lucky that your husband isn't an asshole. If he was, well, your version of submission would suck just as bad as all other fundies.

Why should the man automatically be taking on the role of providing for his family, keeping them safe and handling things outside the home while women stay at home?

Do you teach your children this model of marriage? Do you teach them that women should be submissive and that men should be the leaders of the home?

[nelliebelle1197]

This needs to be engraved on about a million plaques and posted permanently within eye level of 99% of the world's population. In various languages, of course.

The Bible calls for spouses, and for Christians, to "submit unto each other" and to otherwise take care of the other. The whole "Biblical" Manhood and Womanhood scam is nothing more than a control tactic.

Personally, several years ago I learned the value of ceding occasional decision-making power to my The Spousal Unit, and in our case, it worked. Before embarking on a two-days-driving-one-way-just-to-get-to-our- destination car trip, I mentally decided to say, "you decide" and "whatever you think" to any question that wasn't really, really important to me.

A few hours into the trip, he asked if I wanted to take a detour that I'd talked about enthusiastically for a few weeks, but coudl live without. I said, "That's totally up to you" and to my delighted surprise, he took my route (the detour) and we did not spat until very, very late in the trip - a record for us, seriously.

About half a year later, in a marriage counseling session, the trip came up and I told him and our counselor (a male) what my plan had been. They were both surprised to learn it, but the professional had the presence of mind to ask my TSU what he thought about that, and if he'd suspected anything at all. My TSU hadn't, and he didn't take it badly a bit.

Since then, the level of conflict in our marriage has calmed down majorly, but it must be said that it's not by any means all due to ceding some decision-making power to him. I've continued in talk therapy, learning a lot of communication skills I'd never gotten around to, somehow. The big decisions are jointly made. I take my emotional temperature and survey my own needs when TSU proposes some activity or expense, and if the facts align, he's got the con, as they say.

But canid-like submission to his every whim on every aspect of life? NO perks there at all, unless one is into mental masochism.

ETA "occasional" which makes the statement accurate! :D

Damn. You are a grown up. You are a rare, wild flower.

[sewingmom2]

First of all, your version of submission really isn't that much better than anyone elses. You just got lucky that your husband isn't an asshole. If he was, well, your version of submission would suck just as bad as all other fundies.

Why should the man automatically be taking on the role of providing for his family, keeping them safe and handling things outside the home while women stay at home?

Do you teach your children this model of marriage? Do you teach them that women should be submissive and that men should be the leaders of the home?

I don't necessarily think a man "should" take over providing for his family, but my late husband did take over this role and I was thrilled. I'd always thought I'd work when the kids were out of diapers, but when my first baby was placed into my arms, I knew I would not leave him in child care if there was any way not to. I don't judge others--this is just how I felt. Maybe it was because I was the child of a working mom (1950's baby). Or it was just hormones. Or whatever. But I managed to be a sahm for 25 years before re-entering the work force and I have few regrets. At 60, I have a decent retirement and I only need to work part-time from now on out, thanks in part to dh's arrangements, insurance, and so forth.

I loved being home with children. I loved homemaking--and still do. I spent today washing spring clothes and getting most of them ironed. I am spending the night in a PICU with a friend's child so she can go home and sleep. Tomorrow, I will do church then come home and nap for a few hours. I will then ride my horse (boy, does he need it!) for an hour or so before coming back in to finish the ironing. Monday and Tuesday I teach, Wednesday and Thursday are free days, and I teach again on Friday. I love my life!!!!

[formergothardite]

I'm a SAHM because having one of us at home works for our family at this moment. It has absolutely nothing to do with submission or the man taking on the burden of providing for his family while the woman makes sure he comes home to a clean house. He happened to go to college and get a degree where he makes more money. If I made more money he would stay at home. We both keep the house clean, handle things outside the home, cook hot meals and try to keep the kids happy. When my youngest starts school this fall I'll go back to work.

FEQ was saying her version of submission was the "right" kind of submission and not as dangerous as the fundies we snark on, but really it is no different she was just lucky she didn't marry a jerk.

[freehannie]

I think the only "perk" is that some of these women feel like submitting in some way gives them security that their marriage won't fall apart. They seem to believe that men need to be propped up by women in order to feel like men. If I was completely dependent financially on a man with little or no marketable skills and several kids, I'd be worried about being left with no way to support myself or the kids. If everyone at church was telling me that men need submission to stay married, out of desperation, I'd do it. Luckily, I am not in that situation. But the impression that I get from some of the women we read is that they are very concerned about holding on to men that maybe it would be better to let go of and I can only imagine it's because they would be destitute without them and their church wouldn't necessarily step in to help them. That's why it's so concerning to me when girls aren't being educated and are left with few other options.