Intensive mothering

[docmom]

I think most parents, and especially mothers, want what's best for their kids. Unfortunately they don't know what that is and that's extremely difficult for modern women to deal with. We should be able to go to a book or the internet and figure it all out, dammit. So we go on these boards and all of a sudden there's 50 different ways to do it right and we're even more confused. So we pick one way and then get scared that it's the wrong way but we can't admit it so we we get all defensive and say that the other ways must be wrong. I went thorugh all this with my first child. By kid number 2 I was definitely more laid back and by the third (and at age 42) I finally realized that I wasn't perfect, they weren't perfect and no-one had any better plan on how to bring them up than me and my husband. I now stay away from all those mommy boards like the plague and my kids seem to be doing OK.

[ladyamylynn]

Elisabeth Badinter is not exactly non-biased when it comes to breast v formula. She has very close ties to the Nestle Corporation which has perhaps been the largest and most deceitful of promoters of artificial baby milks in the developing world. They have certainly been the most deceitful. They used to have women dressed up as nurses giving out samples of their formula powder. The mothers would not be given out enough milk to sustain their infants for very long, but long enough to undermine their milk supply. These mothers were often illiterate and poor. They could not read the preparation instructions on the can of formula concentrate or powder so they frequently over-diluted the milk. It still looked white so it must be ok, right? Wrong! The water that they used to mix the formula was often polluted, as well. Many babies died as the result of Nestle's deceptive marketing practices.

Ms Badinter is also not a feminist.

Well, I did some more reading, and you certainly appear to be correct that she has some troubling ties to Nestle. I still think I agree with her overall point, as it pertains to women in developed countries, at least. Could you point me to some further criticism of her feminism? I first heard about her in the comments section of a radical feminist blog, so I assumed that she had some feminist street cred. I couldn't find much that wasn't in French, and my high-school French skills are way rusty. Thanks!

[shedemei]

I'm not totally convinced that the "mommy wars" is even a real thing. Aren't there a lot of schools of thought about a lot of different things? If we saw computer programmers debating in blog form about the best way to write a program to do xyz, would we call it "computer programmer wars"?

Clearly, you weren't around for the vi vs Emacs wars back in the day. Or the Linux vs everyone else wars. :D

[Black Aliss]

In 1989, when I first got internet access, the mommy wars were already in full swing on the misc.kids Usenet newsgroup and they were vicious! Especially when you consider that in order to have internet access back then you had to be at least functional enough to attend a university or be employed by a company or gov't agency that provided internet access, and have sufficient technical competency to navigate command-line unix. There was the SAH vs WOH war, the cloth vs disposable diaper war, the circ vs non-circ war, the breast vs bottle war. (old-internet-hats, did I miss any?) The battles would die down for a while, then flare up again, lather, rinse, repeat. And yes, the participants and spectators did refer to them as the Mommy Wars, even though there were plenty of dads involved. The mainstream media was blissfully unaware of the phenomenon, probably because they didn't have internet!)

[gardenvarietycitizen]

In 1989, when I first got internet access, the mommy wars were already in full swing on the misc.kids Usenet newsgroup and they were vicious! Especially when you consider that in order to have internet access back then you had to be at least functional enough to attend a university or be employed by a company or gov't agency that provided internet access, and have sufficient technical competency to navigate command-line unix. There was the SAH vs WOH war, the cloth vs disposable diaper war, the circ vs non-circ war, the breast vs bottle war. (old-internet-hats, did I miss any?) The battles would die down for a while, then flare up again, lather, rinse, repeat. And yes, the participants and spectators did refer to them as the Mommy Wars, even though there were plenty of dads involved. The mainstream media was blissfully unaware of the phenomenon, probably because they didn't have internet!)

Heh. I'll back you up on this too - I read that newsgroup myself, mainly for the snark (didn't have kids, still don't).

[Feberin]

I have to be honest that as someone who works more than full time in a demanding job at a large nonprofit, SAHM talking about about difficult the "job" is drive me insane. I go to work at 7 to get home by kindergarten dismissal at 2:30 and usually work after bedtime. I pick up my daughter at daycare because at the same time because we do not want her there more than 7 hours. I do the lessons, the playground after school, the playdates and pretty much everything the neighborhood stay at homes do PLUS work full time. I don't get the honor of spending that core 7 hours with my kids, but that is about all I do that is different from the SAHMs in my neighborhood. Most of them think I am one of them, in fact. Yet that job is considered harder. My husband and I both wonder how. I just roll my eyes and move on, but the fact is that none of us should be judged or judging for choices- we all have to make it work as best we can and as long as we are trying to be good parents and make good people, I am not sure what else matters.

I think both working and staying at home are difficult in their own ways. When I was working then I was trying to find time for everything that had to get done and exhausted. I felt like I never got a chance to rest. Now that I'm staying at home I have a lot more time. Things like getting laundry done doesn't force me to miss out on sleep. But I also have a long day at home with my kids. I struggle a lot with boredom and loneliness now that I'm staying at home. My kids also get on my nerves a lot more since we're pretty much always together. I also think everyone's situation is unique. When I worked I only had one child so in general life was easier then now staying at home with two children. I also think it's a little odd that you say nobody should be judged while clearly judging staying at home not be a job and saying that it's easy.

[Hestia]

Hands-on dads get one of two reactions:

1. Shock that they are actually being hands-on dads, bizarre (and possibly illegal) questions from bosses like "why would you want to take parental leave?" (when it is a legal right written into his contract), comments that he must be "whipped" and jokes questioning his manhood.

2. Instant adoration, esp. from other women. I do all of the carpools, make all the lunches, do all the grocery shopping and cooking, and do 90% of the errands and running around with the kids, I'm home when hubby is working late or at meetings, but he is the hero because he does the soccer and hockey, and actually attends parent-teacher interviews with me. I'm glad he does it, but yeah - there's a double standard.

There's also my favorite line from my hubby on parental leave and from several divorced dads that I know: "You have NO IDEA how hard and tiring parenting is!" I just laugh and laugh.

This is so true. My husband looks after the kid 3.5 days out of 7 (the .5 is our family off day and so we both take care kiddo and chill out). This is made possible by the fact that my husband is a PhD student and I'm about to start again at Uni, so our timetables are really really flexible. Everyone we meet thinks he is absolutely WONDERFUL at being such a GREAT DAD and aren't I just SO LUCKY!!! This was also the same attitude that people had when he organized our wedding (even sewed the dresses), and took care of 75% of the housework during my very hard pregnancy. Now he is a wonderful man, but he gets as frustrated as I do, when people will heap praise upon him and completely ignore me, or even look askance at me because I "trust" him so much with the kid.

Mind you, growing up a lot of my friends (in our fundie homeschooler community) had dads who would not even change nappys or stack the dishwasher, so one of my must haves in a future partner was someone who would insist on being an equally involved parent. Fuck that shit!

[PennySycamore]

Well, I did some more reading, and you certainly appear to be correct that she has some troubling ties to Nestle. I still think I agree with her overall point, as it pertains to women in developed countries, at least. Could you point me to some further criticism of her feminism? I first heard about her in the comments section of a radical feminist blog, so I assumed that she had some feminist street cred. I couldn't find much that wasn't in French, and my high-school French skills are way rusty. Thanks!

I found this article last evening that was pretty disturbing: http://sisyphe.org/spip.php?article720

I think the article was originally in French, but has been translated into English.

[Turtle]

That is why I do it, too. And you can resell the cloth on eBay and make a lot of your investment back when you are done! No diaper rash with the cloth diaper baby after two years of cloth. I still have the same jar of ointment I bought when she came home.

I have to be honest that as someone who works more than full time in a demanding job at a large nonprofit, SAHM talking about about difficult the "job" is drive me insane. I go to work at 7 to get home by kindergarten dismissal at 2:30 and usually work after bedtime. I pick up my daughter at daycare because at the same time because we do not want her there more than 7 hours. I do the lessons, the playground after school, the playdates and pretty much everything the neighborhood stay at homes do PLUS work full time. I don't get the honor of spending that core 7 hours with my kids, but that is about all I do that is different from the SAHMs in my neighborhood. Most of them think I am one of them, in fact. Yet that job is considered harder. My husband and I both wonder how. I just roll my eyes and move on, but the fact is that none of us should be judged or judging for choices- we all have to make it work as best we can and as long as we are trying to be good parents and make good people, I am not sure what else matters.

I think sometimes moms want to talk about how being a SAHM is soooo hard because society confuses "difficult" with "valuable". It has to be hard because we are raised to be competitive and traditional childcare work isn't really valued. So, a mom has to talk about how challenging it is to cloth diaper, full time breastfeed, make your own laundry soap and do craft projects with the kids that she found on Pinterest to prove that her decision to stay at home is worthy compared to a mother who works and brings home income.

For example, I have a friend who posts on Facebook all the things she does "before noon": walking the dog, grocery shopping, dishes, laundry, etc. and adds something like "and I did it all with two little kids in tow!" I'm sure that most working parents do that plus go to work, but I don't see any of my working mom friends posting everything they did that morning on Facebook. But society values their work differently because they get a paycheck, so they don't need to convince everyone that they are sooo busy.

[PennySycamore]

Oh yeah, we definitely use strollers, too. Once again, whatever works is my motto! Yes, the strange looks about non-vax are the best. I am having a hard time deciding whether or not to let my son play in that playgroup (so far, it has been mom only meetings) and the leader is very non-vax. I have a hard time keeping my mouth shut!

Some years ago, we had a Leader Applicant in our LLL group and another wanna-be Applicant mom. She was very extreme in a lot of her views (e.g., she didn't believe in toys) and quite strident about them as well. There was no way we could have recommended this mom to be a Leader. Anyway, the Leader Applicant was walking in the mall with her toddler daughter in the stroller. The strident mom scolded the LA because she walked at the mall and worse, didn't wear her daughter. Didn't she know she ought to walking around in the fresh air with that child in a backpack? IIRC, it was winter and the Leader Applicant didn't live in a neighborhood conducive to walking. The other mom lived in a great neighborhood for walking. I know -I used to live in that neighborhood.

Yeah, I used to be an LLL Leader, but not anymore.

[Hestia]

I think sometimes moms want to talk about how being a SAHM is soooo hard because society confuses "difficult" with "valuable". It has to be hard because we are raised to be competitive and traditional childcare work isn't really valued. So, a mom has to talk about how challenging it is to cloth diaper, full time breastfeed, make your own laundry soap and do craft projects with the kids that she found on Pinterest to prove that her decision to stay at home is worthy compared to a mother who works and brings home income.

For example, I have a friend who posts on Facebook all the things she does "before noon": walking the dog, grocery shopping, dishes, laundry, etc. and adds something like "and I did it all with two little kids in tow!" I'm sure that most working parents do that plus go to work, but I don't see any of my working mom friends posting everything they did that morning on Facebook. But society values their work differently because they get a paycheck, so they don't need to convince everyone that they are sooo busy.

This is very true in my experience. My kid is 5 months old and even though up until a month ago I did all the childcare and housecare, I felt like I was lazy and contributed nothing to society, even when I was awake 24 hours straight because my baby was sick, even though I used to pump 2 hours around the clock, even though I cooked and cleaned and baked and preserved etc I felt like I was doing NOTHING with my time and felt as if I had to justify myself to everyone I met as to why I was so tired. Now that I'm going back to uni, I suddenly do not feel that need at all.

I don't think that being a SAHM is harder than being a working mum. But, often it is lonely, thankless and very, very dull. I never understood why my mother as a grown adult got sucked into the fundie community, but now I do. Fundamentalism tells SAHM mums that they are doing a vital job for the good of society, truth, justice etc etc. They value and idolize the SAHM. The more kids you have, the better your status. Instead of feeling shut out and anxious you feel important and like you are achieving great things. I get how my mum as a lonely woman, whose friends had all gone to university and had jobs, would want to join a community like the one I grew up in. I still think it's very very very wrong. But I get it.

[nelliebelle1197]

As someone who has done both the SAHM and WOHM thing, I have to object to putting "job" in quotations.

The stress that comes from juggling is something that a SAHM doesn't face, but otherwise, the parent at home IS working. If they are at all competent, they are caring for a child, and if a stranger is doing the same thing, they are getting paid for it and considered to be working. Working those 7 hours would not be possible if someone else wasn't providing care during that time.

Parenting is also a 24/7 job. The difficulty will depend on what is going on 24/7, not just Monday to Friday, 9-5. If a SAHM is not getting any help at home from a spouse who works long hours, and if she has a particularly demanding baby that isn't allowing her to sleep, then yes, it's a demanding job. By the same token, the working mom who spends every single moment that she's not at work with a baby attached to her (which is exactly what baby #1 did) is very much a hands-on mom. I spent more time with baby #1, even though I went back to work full-time when she was 7 months, than I did with baby #3, when I was a SAHM until he was 14 months, because he spent most of his first year asleep.

I understand that objection. I guess sometimes it feels from the working mother POV that SAHMs judge our workload as less. Parenting isn't a competition and I do get that 24/7 with kids is not fun, but working women deal with the same 24/7 issues - and many of them don't even have significant others to help at all! I guess a lot of it in my area is that all the stay at homes are degreed former professionals who feel like EVERYTHING is a competition- tons of former lawyers and academics and such; plus, I'd say 75% of parents are in their late 30s/early 40s in our little town. I think that makes a difference

[PennySycamore]

Turtle, your post reminds me of something I read years ago about Dr Ruth Lawrence, professor of pediatrics at the University of Rochester School of Medicine and Dentistry. Dr Lawrence and her husband (also on the faculty) were the parents of nine children. When her children were small, Ruth only taught part-time, but before she left for work in the morning she would make 10 beds, do three loads of laundry and fix school lunches for the school-age kids. This remarkable woman also ran the Rochester area poison control center out of her home at one time. I think she's still serving on the faculty and she's in her mid to late 80s.

[Patsy]

I think sometimes moms want to talk about how being a SAHM is soooo hard because society confuses "difficult" with "valuable". It has to be hard because we are raised to be competitive and traditional childcare work isn't really valued. So, a mom has to talk about how challenging it is to cloth diaper, full time breastfeed, make your own laundry soap and do craft projects with the kids that she found on Pinterest to prove that her decision to stay at home is worthy compared to a mother who works and brings home income.

For example, I have a friend who posts on Facebook all the things she does "before noon": walking the dog, grocery shopping, dishes, laundry, etc. and adds something like "and I did it all with two little kids in tow!" I'm sure that most working parents do that plus go to work, but I don't see any of my working mom friends posting everything they did that morning on Facebook. But society values their work differently because they get a paycheck, so they don't need to convince everyone that they are sooo busy.

Fantastic post.

[FJismyheadship]

s.

FMJ, I think there was a former poster on here that did EC. I don't recall who it was, though, but I think they bolted in all the Alecto drama. I heard a couple of pediatricians express their thoughts on EC on CNN a couple of years ago. One doctor pointed out that infants did not have the capacity to exercise bladder or bowel control until they could walk. And Dr T Berry Brazelton asked the question "Is this how you really want to spend your time with your baby in the first year of life" Babies aren't bothered by being wet or poopy if they're not cold or rashy. Rather we as mothers are bothered by them being "dirty". I do know one thing: It's irritating to have led a young mother's meeting having to pee the last half of the meeting and then, when you are finally able to go, find the only bathroom occupied by an 8 month old! She used up the last bit of TP, too!

I hope I edited that quote right

Mine cries the second she wets her diaper. She was wearing disposables at first because people did buy them for me, but she is so sensitive that she wets the diaper and instantly cries. It's the only thing that keeps her from sleeping through the night. Super absorbent doesn't work either. I found a basket full of of Fuzzy Bunz and soakers at a consignment shop for fourty dollars and snatched them right up.

[Rosa]

I think sometimes moms want to talk about how being a SAHM is soooo hard because society confuses "difficult" with "valuable".

QFT.

I think, too, that women who worked fulltime and then became SAHM's feel like they have to make parenting/housekeeping really complex and difficult to "justify" not working for a paycheck, even when the economics clearly favor staying home.

I have known more than one woman to think about or actually have another baby mostly because staying home with an infant is seen as valuable but staying home with a school-age kids isn't. Even though, face it, not working with fewer children is a smarter economic choice than not working with more children.

[linnea27]

I think whether staying home or working is "easier" depends on your personality, and possibly your situation.

I live in Canada, where we have one year mat leave. I recently returned to work after having my second child. While I grieved putting my baby in daycare. working is easier for me and my life. My husband works long hours (2 - 3 24 hour shifts per week) and being home with two kids for that length of time is exhausting for me. I was cranky and lonely and frustrated at times. Returning to work is definitely easier in that I get some child-free time when I interact with adults and dress in clean clothes and get out of the house. I do think being a SAHM is hard, and whether that is due to just where my skillset lies, or my personality, or the fact that my husband works long hours, I don't know. But I think these debates on which is harder are silly. We are all cut out for different things and have different goals for our lives.

[Feberin]

I think whether staying home or working is "easier" depends on your personality, and possibly your situation.

I live in Canada, where we have one year mat leave. I recently returned to work after having my second child. While I grieved putting my baby in daycare. working is easier for me and my life. My husband works long hours (2 - 3 24 hour shifts per week) and being home with two kids for that length of time is exhausting for me. I was cranky and lonely and frustrated at times. Returning to work is definitely easier in that I get some child-free time when I interact with adults and dress in clean clothes and get out of the house. I do think being a SAHM is hard, and whether that is due to just where my skillset lies, or my personality, or the fact that my husband works long hours, I don't know. But I think these debates on which is harder are silly. We are all cut out for different things and have different goals for our lives.

I agree with this so much! I find staying at home easier but that doesn't make it easy if that makes sense. Parenting is hard and it doesn't matter if you work or stay at home. Every situation is unique and different making it so that you really can't say ____ is easier because there are factors involved such as number of children, temperments of all family members, if SO is involved, any special needs and how demanding of a job if working outside the home.

[nelliebelle1197]

I think whether staying home or working is "easier" depends on your personality, and possibly your situation.

I live in Canada, where we have one year mat leave. I recently returned to work after having my second child. While I grieved putting my baby in daycare. working is easier for me and my life. My husband works long hours (2 - 3 24 hour shifts per week) and being home with two kids for that length of time is exhausting for me. I was cranky and lonely and frustrated at times. Returning to work is definitely easier in that I get some child-free time when I interact with adults and dress in clean clothes and get out of the house. I do think being a SAHM is hard, and whether that is due to just where my skillset lies, or my personality, or the fact that my husband works long hours, I don't know. But I think these debates on which is harder are silly. We are all cut out for different things and have different goals for our lives.

I think you are 100% right on that! And I would have loved a one year leave!

[Lulu]

I don't find staying at home all that hard but now that my littlest one is away at school too I would love to get a small p/t job but the hours I can work are not all that flexible so looking is hard. And I do not think it would be economically viable for me either, I once had a friend who worked and after it was all tallied-childcare, petrol, carparking etc she came out about $10/week better off. Plus she still had the care and running of the house.

[Rosa]

I've stayed home with a toddler, worked full time, worked part time/flex, and now I'm home with a schoolgoing kid.

The last one is easiest. The first was hardest for me. Working full time was pretty awesome but a lot of things about our life just fell apart - my partner works 60-80 hours a week, so if I work 40-50 (my FT job had mandatory overtime 3 weeks a quarter) we were working as much as 3 regular fulltimers and shit at home just did not get done (i hope to get another fulltime job and what's getting cut is the grandparent & extended family time, not our household stuff and not my friends. Screw the old people and their "we decided to move across the country but we want to SEE OUR GRANDCHILDREN so we will whine until you travel more). Other than being home with a toddler, the flex/part time was hardest, because it was get up with child, work, child time all afternoon (plus chores & dinner), then work after dinner.

People work too much/too hard in our culture. We forget to enjoy ourselves, we don't take enough time off, and too many times we end up old empty-nesters with no deep friendships because we spent years just covering the stuff we had to do and not the stuff we wanted to do.

[GiggleOfGirls]

I think that mommy wars stem mainly from insecurity. Moms have probably always been insecure, but nowadays anyone who isn't completely confident in their parenting (which is almost every single new parent, IME) is confronted with people who are also not completely confident and who are justifying their way as being the absolutely best way ever. That kind of thing probably feeds on itself until it gets out of control.

I have EC'd all of my babies and it really wasn't a big deal. I used backup diapers until they were signing/telling me they had to go reliably, I pottied them when I knew they had to go, and didn't stress about it when they went in their diapers. I also don't go around telling people who don't ask about it that they should EC.

ECing is something that I personally can't imagine not doing, but it's worked out well for my family. I stay home for the first year and I don't think it would have worked nearly as well had I needed to go back to work sooner or if I hadn't heard about it with my oldest because then I wouldn't be used to doing it from the very beginning of parenting. It's not something that would work for everyone and it's also not something that I could fathom getting into an online "war" about :roll:

[quinoa]

I hope I edited that quote right

Mine cries the second she wets her diaper. She was wearing disposables at first because people did buy them for me, but she is so sensitive that she wets the diaper and instantly cries. It's the only thing that keeps her from sleeping through the night. Super absorbent doesn't work either. I found a basket full of of Fuzzy Bunz and soakers at a consignment shop for fourty dollars and snatched them right up.

I'd be interested to know what actual scientific basis those pediatricians had for making those claims, because, like FMJ's little one, mine went out of his way to avoid a wet diaper before the age of six months. This is purely anecdata, but he appeared to exercise good bladder and bowel control by waiting to void until we changed his diaper. I learned right away that I needed to unfasten the diaper, but leave it over him until he finished peeing and possibly pooping (ask me about cleaning breastmilk poop off a wall four feet away from the changing table.) As soon as he could sit up, I started setting him on a little potty periodically through the day, and he never pooped a diaper again unless he was sick. This was all when I was working full time and he spent large chunks of each day with daddy, grandma, or a nanny, so it's not like I had some sort of super-close attachment mommy attunement to his needs that made this possible.

Now, I would never suggest that diapering a kid and waiting to potty train until they're older is bad parenting, especially since modern disposable diapers do maintain a very dry surface when they contain urine and it's a lot easier and perfectly safe to leave that diaper on until you get home. I just think that it's unfair for people like pediatricians, who are respected as experts, to make these claims about bladder control when there's not really science to back it up. It marginalizes parents who do things differently from the norm of "child-led" or toddler potty training, but who are obviously not damaging their babies. Marginalization of almost any parenting choice about diapering, feeding, sleeping, etc. is stupid and counter-productive.

[GiggleOfGirls]

Yes, quinoa, I agree with you, and it's always neat for me to hear about ECing where the parent was working full-time! :)

I have yet to see any scientific basis for the claims that babies have no sphincter control and what I personally have witnessed with my own children is that they had quite a bit of control starting almost from the beginning.

At the same time, other people should diaper their children however it works best for their family. We have carpets and such in modern society and even most ECers (at least the ones I have met) don't go completely diaper free. Do what works and leave people who do things differently alone unless they're being abusive assholes and then, by all means, call them on it.

[HeckBound]

I've been a SAHM and now, for a long time, have worked FT. There's no question that my life was 1000% easier without the 40+ hour work week, but we're into food and heat and cars and shit, and I neither want nor am in a position to not work. Also, now that my kids are older and in HS/college, what the heck would I so all day at home without losing my mind? I've never understood how a parent who puts food on the table is somehow "less" of a parent than one who doesn't.

I blame the Internet for the mommy wars.