Abortion for 'medical reasons' 'legalised' in Tasmania

[oil]

If a woman is 8 months pregnant and decides she doesnt want the baby/fetus/whatever it is, should she be allowed to abort it is she has no medical problems and no regrets and even would say some thing like shes glad to get that thing out of her body? It is preserving her body aotonomy. No one should force her to carry this fetus/baby, no?

I dont have opinion on this, only what I would chose for my self, I dont care what other women like to do.

[Mama Mia]

I'm honestly skeptical of the bolded. It is common fucking sense that something growing is alive and that something with human DNA is human. You don't even need to have taken biology to know that. I won't make excuses for Anxious Girl's post, but it is one of the only times I've seen someone unironically make that argument. Do people say that fetuses aren't human beings? All the time. And they're right; fetuses are exempt from many of the definitions of the term "human being". Do people say that fetuses aren't alive the same way that we are? Yes, I've heard it said. And it's true. We'd be brain dead if we had the brain activity that fetuses have before a certain point. Now you could, with enough determination, interpret those two statements to mean that fetuses aren't alive or human. But I assure you: most functional adults know better than that, and I do think you insult our intelligence by implying that we don't. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, though. Find me someone on FJ who honestly believes that a fetus isn't alive or human. Go on.

Sorry, I really suck at even using the quote feature in a reply here, but I will attempt as I have time to go through and find the quotes I am talking about - as they just come up from time to time from various threads it may take me awhile to search them out

Fun fact: abortion is legal up until the point of delivery in Canada. Yet elective late-term abortions don't happen here. Because no OB/GYN is cool with killing a 3rd trimester fetus without a very good reason. In fact, you can get an elective abortion two weeks later in the US than in Canada. Besides anti-choice groups being annoyingly misleading about it, there is no down side. The up side is that, unlike in places where the law grants fetuses rights, you can't be arrested for having a homebirth, or for refusing a c-section, or for using drugs while pregnant. Babies are safer when their mothers have no reason to be afraid of medical professionals. When we make laws, they have to be as much about justice they are about keeping as many people as safe as possible. This is why the police are often required to give up chases when they become dangerous, even though it means letting the bad guy get away. I strongly agree with the above bolded. I think I disagree that you can't have a law barring late term abortions for non-medical reasons without going so far as to have a fetal personhood law, I don't see that as an either/or situation

Are there people out there who genuinely have no problem with a 3rd trimester elective abortion? Yes. Does it make me uncomfortable? Yes. Am I concerned that someone of that opinion will go to med school, become an OB/GYN and take advantage of Canada's lack of an abortion law by moving here and offering 3rd trimester abortions? But doesn't the view that it should be legal as an elective procedure also imply that the Doctors opinon of it's necessity/ medical rationale should be irrelevant ?

In conclusion, now that you've explained how the pro-choicers of FJ have made you more conservative (and more "conservative"), Not sure what you mean by having conservative twice, once in quotes ? I'm assuming maybe I spelled it wrong ? But you have both spelled the same way, so maybe I'm missing something else ?it makes sense to me. The moves to conservatism, however, are based on very easily refuted arguments. I look forward to you providing the quotes I've asked for. And add me to the list of people who don't think you're a troll.

[Arete]

I do know what troll means. You're a troll because you think that woman should be pressured to go through with their pregnancies on a board that snarks on conservatives and fundies.

No, this response indicates you either do not know what troll means, or you are acting like a petulant child who is assigning a new definition to troll because you think it's fun. "Shit stirring troll" and "has a different opinion" are not equivalent.

[GodsKnickers]

Yeah, I'm not getting the troll designation. At all. Differing opinion, certainly, and not one that I agree with, but troll? No. I could tell you stories of anti-choice trolls that would make your head spin, that showed up at the TMFR board that I was the technical/security admin for (as mentioned previously). Disgusting bunch, those.

[formergothardite]

Thank you for saying I am not a troll. I do understand the problem with giving the father any sort of rights. I think IDEALLY maybe there would be some sort of arbitration or counseling or mediation that the father could request prior to the abortion if he wanted to take full responsibility for the child after it was born and the mother did not want to continue the pregnancy, so he could at least have the option of making his case in a neutral setting with professionals helping them to come to a resolution. This of course would be dependent on the mother even letting him know. Ultimately the final decision would need to be hers, as she does bare the medical risk, I acknowledge that.

Using my own life and how my first pregnancy went let me demonstrate how horrible this could be for women. When I first started having sex I was in my early 20's. I was working at a church run daycare and going to school at night and all day Saturday. Dating life was pretty much reserved for Sundays and even then it wasn't a lot of time because I had so much homework. I worked from 7:30-3:30 got home in time to each something and do homework, left at 5:30 and didn't get back home till close to 11pm. It was exhausting and luckily only for a brief time.

But lets say I ended up pregnant. My first pregnancy I was really, really sick the whole first trimester, so for this pretend pregnancy I'll be super sick to. So I'm trying to do all that, plus now I find out I'm pregnant and I'm so sick I can barely make it through the day. If my job finds out I'll be fired. So I go to get an abortion. Except, wait, my boyfriend knows because I told him and he suddenly changes his mind about supporting me and wants to make me go through mediation. Realistically with how the government here works, this would at the very least take a month to set up, probably more. But even if it is a week, that is a week where I am struggling to make it through the day, my boss is beginning to suspect I'm pregnant and now I have to go ask for time off so I can go to this mediation.

I make it through him trying to guilt me into not having an abortion, I go take more time off to go have the abortion. I think this will be the end, but nope, I have to have a waiting period so I can make sure that I really want this. By this time I've already failed some major tests because I'm so sick and tired that I can't study. And they aren't going to give me any time off from work unless I can provide some sort of doctor's note saying what is wrong with me. So I'm screwed. If I take time off to have an abortion they will fire me. If I don't, well they will fire me for being pregnant.

Or, we could have skipped all that and I could have called in sick one day, gone to get an abortion and then gone on with my life. This is why none of those things you are suggesting will work unless you want to cause women to experience hardships.

[Ruby Slippers]

All this mediation talk to negotiate terms about obtaining an abortion is alarming: abusive situations, rape, unhappy breakups. Add in missing work for this? Perhaps repeatedly? Paid time off? Coordinating schedules between parties? You're lucky if putting that shit together doesn't push you into the 2nd trimester when it's more risky.

And who the hell are these mediators that the state has the resources for, when it doesn't have resources to fund schools, enough DCFS investigators, or access to mental health care?

This idea completely sucks from a practical standpoint, let alone from a health and safety standpoint.

[Minerva]

I strongly agree with the above bolded. I think I disagree that you can't have a law barring late term abortions for non-medical reasons without going so far as to have a fetal personhood law, I don't see that as an either/or situation

You may be right. I could be glaringly wrong here, but from what I've read, the UK seems to have done just that. Not that there aren't other concerns (like anti-choice politicians taking the law and running with it like they tried to do in the UK - they can't do that in Canada!)

But doesn't the view that it should be legal as an elective procedure also imply that the Doctors opinon of it's necessity/ medical rationale should be irrelevant ?

In a system like Canada's, where the gestational limit on abortions is decided by doctors' and hospitals' policies, the doctor's opinion is the most relevant. Because you simply can't force a medical professional to do something they don't agree with. Even in places that have gestational limits, whether an abortion is deemed necessary usually comes down to the doctors' opinion as well.

Not sure what you mean by having conservative twice, once in quotes ? I'm assuming maybe I spelled it wrong ? But you have both spelled the same way, so maybe I'm missing something else ?

I put an extra conservative in quotes because thinking there should be counselling before an abortion and informational resources made available to every abortion patient is not conservative. It's only conservative if you think the counselling should pressure the patient to keep their pregnancy, or if you think the patient should be forced to look at certain information against their will. Meanwhile, a law that ensured high quality counselling and resources at every clinic would be the opposite of conservative since it involves a) genuine concern for a woman's ability to make any reproductive choice uncoerced and b) the generous allocation of a lot of government funds.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Babies are safer when their mothers have no reason to be afraid of medical professionals.

QFT.

I don't think that everything that every pregnant woman does is always moral. My best friend has a foster son with fetal alcohol syndrome, and I see all the ways in which it is ruining his life. I also know, though, that fetal alcohol syndrome often develops early in the pregnancy, before anyone would know that the woman is pregnant. Laws designed to control and punish women will never work as well as programs that provide health care, encourage women to get testing and be aware of whether or not they are pregnant, and provide education and assistance for women who may be dealing with substance abuse.

Re former gotherdite's post:

Again, more proof that the way to protect potential babies is to look out for the welfare of the pregnant woman. It's far easier to be pregnant and stay pregnant when you know that being on bedrest won't result in job loss, the loss of your home, inability to feed or care for existing children, etc. An organization that was truly pro-life would focus more of providing legal protection for pregnant workers and practical assistance for women on bedrest.

[OkToBeTakei]

You may be right. I could be glaringly wrong here, but from what I've read, the UK seems to have done just that. Not that there aren't other concerns (like anti-choice politicians taking the law and running with it like they tried to do in the UK - they can't do that in Canada!)

In a system like Canada's, where the gestational limit on abortions is decided by doctors' and hospitals' policies, the doctor's opinion is the most relevant. Because you simply can't force a medical professional to do something they don't agree with. Even in places that have gestational limits, whether an abortion is deemed necessary usually comes down to the doctors' opinion as well.

I put an extra conservative in quotes because thinking there should be counselling before an abortion and informational resources made available to every abortion patient is not conservative. It's only conservative if you think the counselling should pressure the patient to keep their pregnancy, or if you think the patient should be forced to look at certain information against their will. Meanwhile, a law that ensured high quality counselling and resources at every clinic would be the opposite of conservative since it involves a) genuine concern for a woman's ability to make any reproductive choice uncoerced and b) the generous allocation of a lot of government funds.

Has the law in the UK changed? I was not aware it had. Abortion is legal up to 24 weeks and after for medical reasons which includes physical and mental well being of the Mother. Every now and then a daft politician mentions their own agenda, it never gets anywhere. Last time in fact his own party leader nearly had political kittens.

[lilith]

My mother had a second trimester abortion when I was a child. Her experience is a big part of why I passionately believe in abortion on demand, no questions asked.

My mother conceived a wanted pregnancy. At about ten weeks, she and I both contracted German measles. Her doctor told her that the likelihood of the fetus developing without severe health/developmental issues was small. She was living off the grid with a four year old and a nine year old, she was in no way equipped to care for a baby with a high level of special needs, and she and my father both believed it would be cruel to bring such a child into the world. She needed an abortion, and her doctor, who was also the local surgeon, agreed.

We lived near a small town. The nearest abortion clinic was in the city, a six hour drive away. The doctor had to seek permission to perform the abortion at the local hospital. The local hospital board was majority catholic, and put every obstacle in the way that they could. My mother's doctor had to appear before the full board and argue his case. He eventually obtained permission to perform the procedure only if it was listed as a D&C.

By the time all this was dealt with my mother was 14 weeks pregnant. The fact that she had passed 12 weeks during the negotiations had set off yet another round of negotiations. All this with a pro choice doctor who firmly believed she should have this abortion, and in a small town where everyone knew each others business.

She had the procedure and moved on, but it makes me furious on her behalf to think of her and her doctor needing to beg a group of non medical professionals for permission for her to have a needed procedure in a public hospital.

If abortion is legal and it is accepted that a woman has a right to bodily autonomy, the only logical position is to trust women with their own bodies and provide abortion on demand, no questions asked.

[Alice_Fraggle]

Yes, but although there is a slight risk for medical complications from childbirth, there are also other factors in it as well.

What about the woman's mental health? There are some women who are so desperate not to be pregnant, that they will go to extreme lengths to stop it, such as going to an unqualified and unsanitary "doctor" or trying to do it themselves, risking death and infection. Some women could even be suicidal because of their desperation not to be pregnant. There are women who have delivered babies and killed them because they couldnt get an abortion but didnt want a baby.

What about the fetus when its born? What if it is kinder to abort the fetus now than doom it to an awful life...like if you find out in pregnancy that something is horribly wrong and the fetus has a medical condition that means that it will die at birth or live a short life full of suffering and have no quality of life.

(There's a lot that's gone on since I last checked this thread, so please forgive me for bringing up something from page 6 [i think], but there is something here that I want to make sure that 4th Survivor sees - if they're still around)

Re: The bolded - I know for a fact that if I were to become pregnant I would become suicidal. In fact - I have told my husband this. And do you know what he said? "We have ways to take care of the pregnancy so that you wouldn't get to that point." Meaning (since you don't seem to understand) that since I know I would become suicidal we would make sure that I had an abortion - because it's my choice what happens to my body, and NOBODY but ME can decide what's right for ME. Carrying the baby and giving it up for adoption is NOT an option for me because *I* would be long dead before the baby arrived (therefore - the fetus would be dead too). (Before you say I shouldn't have children then - YES I KNOW and my husband and I are doing everything we can to prevent pregnancy.) Do I not matter? Should I sacrifice BOTH myself and the fetus to make YOU happy, so YOU can feel good that their is another unwanted life on this planet? Isn't it MORE cruel to have a baby and put it uncertain circumstances, where they can be neglected, physically, sexually and mentally abused, beaten, ignored, burned, etc., than to end the "life" that isn't a life yet? Isn't it MORE CRUEL to FORCE a working, functioning member of society to end their life for the chance that a FETUS will become someone? Come tell me how I should stay pregnant, and "just give it up for adoption".

Your opinion and views are YOURS alone - don't expect anyone to agree with you. You are a hypocrite - just admit it. "All babies should be born, except those where there are medical issues, or in the case of rape." Either ALL babies should be born, or ALL mothers should have the choice. People like YOU are the reason that there are unsafe back alley coat hanger abortion "clinics". Until you stop looking down on those who make different choices than you on this one topic you will continue to cause women (and even some babies) to die - either in childbirth, in shoddy abortion "clinics" or at their own hand because YOU can't see past your own nose on this. No matter whether you like it or not - there will ALWAYS be abortions - there just won't always be SAFE abortions. There is a huge difference - and it's a VERY IMPORTANT difference.

(I'm sorry to get all Caps-lock-y, but this is a topic that makes my blood boil. I'm tired of the "If your mom had an abortion" bs, and the "stay pregnant against you will (AKA be a hostage in your own body) and give up the baby" (to whom? There is not a person waiting with open arms to adopt all the unwanted babies - that's why there are so many kids in foster care) bs, etc. Oh dear, I'm getting ragey all over again!)

Going back to catch up with the thread.

[Alice_Fraggle]

If a woman is 8 months pregnant and decides she doesnt want the baby/fetus/whatever it is, should she be allowed to abort it is she has no medical problems and no regrets and even would say some thing like shes glad to get that thing out of her body? It is preserving her body aotonomy. No one should force her to carry this fetus/baby, no?

I dont have opinion on this, only what I would chose for my self, I dont care what other women like to do.

It depends on the woman and the situation. I would wager that MOST women would have decided WAY before then to terminate the pregnancy, but if a woman only realized that she didn't want the child at 8 months then I think it should be up to her. It's not something that I agree with, so it's not something I'd do, but I wouldn't ever tell anyone that they can't or shouldn't. It's not my body. I would say that I'm glad to have that thing out of my body at any point in a pregnancy so I don't see how that has any weight at all. Why does it matter what she says about the baby being gone? Isn't that her right too? To say whatever she wants about the aborted fetus? I don't understand why that matters.

On the other topics - I agree that the "father" should have no rights to the fetus until after it's born. If the fetus becomes his then, as many others have said, so does the woman. We've moved past slavery as a society, and that sounds semi-akin to slavery to me. (I acknowledge that may sound un PC, but I hope it's clear what I mean. To me - it's slavery in that you are being forced to do something you don't want to do by someone that "owns" you. Please feel free to correct me if I sound like an ignorant asshole.)

RE: Waiting periods, and Counseling sessions: Those are both absurd. Women know why they're going to the abortion clinic - they know what happens, and I would bet that MOST women that go to abortion clinics aren't on the fence about their decision. To me, all those counseling sessions would be for is to hand out propaganda from the pro-life crowd. There would be nothing they could tell me that would make me change my mind, and I would bet that most other women would say the same. All the waiting period does is make the woman more likely to go somewhere else / take things into her own hands. Why do I need to wait for something that I've already decided to do? (I'm not talking "I decided but don't have the time/money/etc.". I mean just do the procedure when I come in the first time - that's why I came in.) It's taking precious time away from the women who don't have time to spare. Do the procedure when I ask you to so I can go on with my life without that parasite squirming around in my body driving me insane, and making me sick!

ETA: I just noticed my use of "mother" when I should have said "pregnant woman" in my post above this one. It's not something I had consciously thought about before someone brought it up, and I apologize. It will be something I think about in the future. (For reference: not all pregnant women should be called mothers, especially if they don't want the baby they are carrying.)