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Abortion for 'medical reasons' 'legalised' in Tasmania


Vex

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You have this thing bookmarked don't you Anxious Girl?

Anyway I'm really not sure what else to say. Like I said you guys don't seem to put the same value on life that most people do. When I said none of you would be here if you were aborted I was told "so what?" as if it wasn't a big deal. You accuse right wingers of not caring about people after they are born but you are equally bad because you think a fetus is just an object that can be thrown away on a whim. All of us were fetuses at one point so that mindset doesn't make any sense to me. I can understand getting an abortion for a medical reason (or rape) but otherwise it is just a very selfish thing to do.

Before you give me the whole "you want to force a woman to do something that can kill her" shtick, death from pregnancy in the US is pretty rare. 14.5 out of 100,000 live births (http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/12/ ... P220101202) and that includes the women that had prior health conditions as well. If you only counted women who were totally healthy the death rate would be even lower. Besides, most abortions are not done out of health concerns, but rather because the woman doesn't want a child. This is selfish and could be solved by simply putting the baby up for adoption. An imperfect solution yes, but much better than not being alive.

Bumping this thread up again, in case the 4:th shows up. How's it going to be, survivor? Do you want Effie to die? :?

I guess you indirectly answered my question, didn't you? Health concerns don't include mental health, according to you. If it did you wouldn't talk about women not wanting a child as an illegitimate reason. May I ask you, doctor nobody, what you know about women's "health concerns"? Keep your beliefs far away from my body and the bodies of people like me (mentally ill people) and people who aren't the slightest bit like me. You have no right to suggest that I should die for "this cause" you believe in, which is exactly what you just did. I told you this

If I would be forced to go through an unwanted pregnancy, you would most likely jeopardize my well-being and mental health. Can you tell me why you think I should be forced to take that risk? With my mental health history, I can't see how it would end well
.

, and yet you answered the way you did.

This is not a political issue. It is a health issue. Even the most traditional right-wingers in my country admitted that this year and thus they decided to not bring the anti-abortion-idiocy up even as a topic. They put the topic down before it went up for discussion in their party (Kristdemokraterna = Christian democrats). They basically said they were not qualified to have a saying in the matter, because it's a medical issue. For once, I think they said something reasonable. Too bad you can't do the same.

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You have this thing bookmarked don't you Anxious Girl?

Anyway I'm really not sure what else to say. Like I said you guys don't seem to put the same value on life that most people do. When I said none of you would be here if you were aborted I was told "so what?" as if it wasn't a big deal. You accuse right wingers of not caring about people after they are born but you are equally bad because you think a fetus is just an object that can be thrown away on a whim. All of us were fetuses at one point so that mindset doesn't make any sense to me. I can understand getting an abortion for a medical reason (or rape) but otherwise it is just a very selfish thing to do.

Before you give me the whole "you want to force a woman to do something that can kill her" shtick, death from pregnancy in the US is pretty rare. 14.5 out of 100,000 live births (http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/12/ ... P220101202) and that includes the women that had prior health conditions as well. If you only counted women who were totally healthy the death rate would be even lower. Besides, most abortions are not done out of health concerns, but rather because the woman doesn't want a child. This is selfish and could be solved by simply putting the baby up for adoption. An imperfect solution yes, but much better than not being alive.

I put enough value on life that I do not advocate shooting child protection workers.

In any case, ANY pregnancy has a profound impact upon the pregnant woman's body, and poses a risk of bodily harm or death. It is therefore my belief, as someone who values life, that nobody should be legally compelled to put their life at risk against their will.

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I put enough value on life that I do not advocate shooting child protection workers.

In any case, ANY pregnancy has a profound impact upon the pregnant woman's body, and poses a risk of bodily harm or death. It is therefore my belief, as someone who values life, that nobody should be legally compelled to put their life at risk against their will.

Thank you for saying that! *Applauds* :clap: :clap: :clap:

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There is no way to argue with this irrational (she IS being irrational) flamethrower because her only true argument is one of emotion.

All babies want to get borned! Why wouldn't you want to get borned? You must hate yourself!

I would not have been born due to an infinite number of unmappable permutations not proceeding in the exact manner in which they did, e.g. my parents meeting or having sweet fellowship at a specific moment and all the small occurrences that led up to those events. My mother's choice not to abort me is just one of those events.

She cries, "I just want to exist and abortion would have prevented that!" Well, many other things would have prevented your existence, so why does that mean that this one is evil?

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It doesn't matter, if the rate is low, it can still kill women and cause life long damage to their health. So please admit that you value the lives of women so little that you would be willing to force them to die or suffer life long damage to their health for a fetus. Wanting to not die, suffer for months on end, have a lower quality of life or have live with life long consequences of pregnancy and childbirth because of an unwanted pregnancy isn't being selfish.

Quoting this and bumping it right on up for the 4th survivor so she can answer. Or do what she usually does, write words but not really address what is being said.

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You guys word things so they sound better for you. "You want to force women to do something that could kill them!" No, I want to force them to take a small risk to their health by not killing the developing baby growing inside of them. The overall incidence of death in the US from pregnancy is 14.5 out of 100,000. That's a little over fourteen-hundredths of one percent chance to die and this is counting everyone including those with health problems. The risk to a pregnant woman is very small, the risk to a fetus is 100% when you have an abortion.

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Yes, but although there is a slight risk for medical complications from childbirth, there are also other factors in it as well.

What about the woman's mental health? There are some women who are so desperate not to be pregnant, that they will go to extreme lengths to stop it, such as going to an unqualified and unsanitary "doctor" or trying to do it themselves, risking death and infection. Some women could even be suicidal because of their desperation not to be pregnant. There are women who have delivered babies and killed them because they couldnt get an abortion but didnt want a baby.

What about the fetus when its born? What if it is kinder to abort the fetus now than doom it to an awful life...like if you find out in pregnancy that something is horribly wrong and the fetus has a medical condition that means that it will die at birth or live a short life full of suffering and have no quality of life.

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You guys word things so they sound better for you. "You want to force women to do something that could kill them!" No, I want to force them to take a small risk to their health by not killing the developing baby growing inside of them. The overall incidence of death in the US from pregnancy is 14.5 out of 100,000. That's a little over fourteen-hundredths of one percent chance to die and this is counting everyone including those with health problems. The risk to a pregnant woman is very small, the risk to a fetus is 100% when you have an abortion.

Yes, the risk is small, but it is still there. In the study of women denied abortions, one of the women who wanted and abortion and was denied died. So there is at least one woman who was forced to die because of people like you.

You have already admitted that a fetus is not valuable enough that you don't think raped women should be forced to carry a fetus against their will. I'm assuming this is because you don't view a fetus as full human. Or do you think babies who are born can be killed if it causes mental anguish to the mother to keep them alive? And how do you know that the mental anguish of a raped woman is any less damaging than the mental anguish of a women who is being forced to be pregnant when she doesn't want to be? The study on women denied abortions showed that their lives did not improve when this happened, but their lives DID improve when they were allowed abortions. ~I really want you to address this point. Why do you not care that you are forcing women to take the HIGH risk that their lives will be fucked up forever~

So, unless you are arguing that a fetus=baby and that it is okay to kill babies in certain cases when it would negatively effect the mother to keep the baby alive, you are saying that a fetus does not equal a baby. And so then why is the quality of a woman's life less than the life of something that isn't equal, in your eyes, to a person?

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And? That's it. Why do you treat fetuses like they are throwaway objects?

And?

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And? That's it. Why do you treat fetuses like they are throwaway objects?

You have some serious existentialism crisis issues.

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What if my parents had never met? I wouldn't exist, exactly as if my mom had had an abortion. Let me go wring my hands in the corner forever and try to someone make it illegal for parents to not meet each other.

Also, the risk of pregnancy and childbirth is vastly, vastly greater than the risk of abortion, even in pregnancies that are very much wanted. It's a simple medical fact. We've done much to mitigate the risks, but it's still the biggest health risk most women will make.

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Yes, but although there is a slight risk for medical complications from childbirth, there are also other factors in it as well.

What about the woman's mental health? There are some women who are so desperate not to be pregnant, that they will go to extreme lengths to stop it, such as going to an unqualified and unsanitary "doctor" or trying to do it themselves, risking death and infection. Some women could even be suicidal because of their desperation not to be pregnant. There are women who have delivered babies and killed them because they couldnt get an abortion but didnt want a baby.

What about the fetus when its born? What if it is kinder to abort the fetus now than doom it to an awful life...like if you find out in pregnancy that something is horribly wrong and the fetus has a medical condition that means that it will die at birth or live a short life full of suffering and have no quality of life.

The risk of childbirth complications is very high. Pregnancy and childbirth always have a detrimental effect on the body. Those effects might only be slight in some women but in others they are not. And it is very common.

Its all well and good if the woman wants to be pregnant and have a baby. This means she accepts those risks, but the woman who doesn't? Why should she be forced to? Why should she be forced to accept painful prolapse, rectoceles where you can't shit unless you stick your fingers up your vagina and push the pouch back into your rectum. Or the cystocele and urethracele where you can't pee unless you rock backwards and forwards yet every time you cough, sneeze or laugh you piss your knickers. Or the scar tissue which takes moths and months to heal and opens up whenever you have sex. Or the back pain caused by over stretched abdominal muscles. And these are the common issues affecting 2 out of every 5 women. I'd like to see 4th Survivor explain why a woman who does not want a pregnancy has to accept those common complications because a ball of cells with no awareness takes priority.

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But it wants the whole world to have a gun to shoot the evil peoples you know :cray-cray:

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And? That's it. Why do you treat fetuses like they are throwaway objects?

Why do you treat the risks to a woman's mental and physical health, career, and finances as if they're no big thing?

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And? That's it. Why do you treat fetuses like they are throwaway objects?

Are you a vegan? A cow or chicken has more thought capacity and desire for life than a fetus.

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The risk of childbirth complications is very high. Pregnancy and childbirth always have a detrimental effect on the body. Those effects might only be slight in some women but in others they are not. And it is very common.

Its all well and good if the woman wants to be pregnant and have a baby. This means she accepts those risks, but the woman who doesn't? Why should she be forced to? Why should she be forced to accept painful prolapse, rectoceles where you can't shit unless you stick your fingers up your vagina and push the pouch back into your rectum. Or the cystocele and urethracele where you can't pee unless you rock backwards and forwards yet every time you cough, sneeze or laugh you piss your knickers. Or the scar tissue which takes moths and months to heal and opens up whenever you have sex. Or the back pain caused by over stretched abdominal muscles. And these are the common issues affecting 2 out of every 5 women. I'd like to see 4th Survivor explain why a woman who does not want a pregnancy has to accept those common complications because a ball of cells with no awareness takes priority.

Wow, I didnt realise there was so much that could go wrong :o

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The 4th Survivor, as Maul the Koala said, has some existentialism crisis issues.

Let me make this clear first - I adore my life, and I like myself, and I want to go into some detail about that. It's under a spoiler, in case extreme positivity sets anyone's teeth on edge. :lol:

I love my day-to-day existence, my family, friends, and pets. I love my time alone. My work is deeply satisfying, even fun, and I take deep satisfaction in improving the world by educating people.

I delight in a day of beautiful weather and the glories of nature, and I am not put off by foul weather. I like the things I own, love matching favorite colors in decor and clothes, like good flavors and nice smells, and even enjoy working out at the gym. I love humor, laugh often, and get great satisfaction out of making others laugh. I sing frequently.

I am happy I live in a time when, due to electronic media and the printing press, I can watch old movies and listen to (or teach or perform) old music, and still enjoy all of the wonders of modern technology. Heck, I'm thrilled that I was born after indoor plumbing was invented!

I was not always such an optimist, and have had a life of mild but constant medical issues, some of which cause pain. Last year, I suffered a serious injury. But, now I'm even proud and happy that I've fought my way through those, and lived to be almost 60, so far. I'm hoping for many more years.

I know that, as soon as I submit this message, I will think of hundreds of things I love about being alive, that I forgot to add.

I am a Pollyanna about life, no doubt to the point of being annoying to others (who I hope have skipped that part of my post, if that attitude does annoy them!).

But I don't extend that to thinking that my existence was somehow pre-ordained or necessary. The fact that I was conceived and born was mostly coincidence. This is true of everyone ever born, even if they were deeply wanted by their parents.

If I had never been born, I would not exist to care about not being born.

If "you must not be glad you're alive," "not wanting to ban abortion means you don't value life" or "the aborted pregnancy could have been a child who grew up to do something wonderful" were valid arguments, we'd have to make sure that every potential child had a chance to be born.

So, not only abortion would need to be banned, but all of the following:

- contraception.

- natural family planning.

- people of a fertile age not knowing one another - yes, every person old/young enough to produce a child would need to meet every other person of that age in the entire world, just in case!

- people of a fertile age not being bold enough to ask for sex, or not wanting sex, from every person (in the entire world!) of the opposite sex - they'd just have to be forced, I guess. Sounds like a logistical and laundry nightmare to me.

Oh, and if you feel strongly about that marriage and commitment thing, gotta give that up -- what if the potential Wonderful Baby Who Will Grow Up to Do Great Things is destined to come from two strangers?

Oh, and wouldn't every fertile person in the work need to have sex again every month? How does every woman have sex with every man during that little window of time each month?

Gay people would have to participate - not sure you'd care about this group, but they'd have to be forced too, poor folks. I'd feel sad for them.

People who are ill-at-ease about sex with a person of another race would have to set that aside -- not sure if you're one of those "we must preserve the white race" folks, but, if every potential human must be given a chance to be born, you have to give that little dream up.

Are you ready to ban all of that? Wanna be the person in charge of organizing it all? :pink-shock:

And, as others have pointed out, that still doesn't account for the children not born because the mother was already pregnant, or didn't have sex at exactly the right time that month, or . . . (I'm sure I'm missing a lot).

The end of an existing pregnancy, whether it is chosen or done by nature (or God, if you prefer), is only one in a myriad, lengthy list of reasons why a new person doesn't come into the world.

My mother had several miscarriages. When I first heard about them, and whenever they are discussed since, it has never occurred to me to think of the potential siblings that never existed -- I had no curiosity about their gender (if known), how old they'd be now, etc.

My only thought was of how horrible it was for my beloved Mom to go through that, how terrifying it was for my father, who utterly adored her, how grateful I was that neighbors and family helped them at the time. Y'know -- thoughts of the existing people I already knew.

The 4th Survivor, if you really insist on trying to have anti-abortion arguments, you need to give up on the "it means you don't value life" and "aren't you glad you were born" angle -- it really makes no sense.

You've stated that you don't think we are educated enough to understand. I think it shows a certain level of education, maturity and common sense that many posters here recognize that, as much as we may adore life, the fact that we were born depended on many factors, some of which were chance.

In fact, educated people have played with this idea in their heads throughout history, acknowledging that many unpredictable tiny things go into results that are (or seem) great and important to us. "For want of a nail" and The Butterfly Effect are examples of this thought process.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/For_Want_of_a_Nail

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_effect

Oh, and BTW -- if the comeback to this is going to be "we don't have to do all of that, because God controls it all, and God knows which babies are important, etc." -- forget it. That means that God makes sure a person who will not continue the pregnancy (meets the guy, has sex, doesn't use contraception or it fails, etc. all of the Butterfly Effect tiny details) gets pregnant, and must want her to end it. Seems sort of a waste, unless God is just looking after the careers of doctors.

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Ok, while the thread had become somewhat removed from the intention of the actual title, I just wanted to de- lurk and chip in with...

I had an abortion 2 years ago in Tasmania and had no idea that it was illegal. It was relatively simple and I even got to claim a small percentage of it back from Medicare.

I'm not usually unaware of current events, bu I guess abortion had never been on my radar until I needed one. That's my explanation as to why I had no knowledge, I guess.

Anyway, as you were.

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But it wants the whole world to have a gun to shoot the evil peoples you know :cray-cray:

So it believes in abortion. Just post birth abortion. Because who facking cares about them after they slide down and out of mom's hooha. Bootstraps, man. Pull 'em up and just dodge the bullets in your classroom, as some crazy fuck shoots it up. Who cares about getting your face blown off at the age of 6? Big whoop.

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Like I said you guys don't seem to put the same value on life that most people do.

Most people. :laughing-rolling:

All of us were fetuses at one point so that mindset doesn't make any sense to me. I can understand getting an abortion for a medical reason (or rape) but otherwise it is just a very selfish thing to do.

You were an egg at one point. Therefore ovulating and not getting pregnant is a very selfish thing to do. How would you like it if your mom had decided not to fuck your dad the month she got pregnant with you? How would you feel knowing that your mom considered not conceiving you?

Did you ovulate this month, 4th survivor? If so, then by your own logic, it'd be extremely selfish of you not to find someone with a dick and get busy. Go on. Don't be a hypocrite now. The world is full of willing sperm donors.

And? That's it. Why do you treat fetuses like they are throwaway objects?

Because things that aren't conscious, that can't think, feel or experience aren't inherently entitled to consideration.

Answer me this: what makes the existence of something no more conscious than a blade of grass more important than my comfort, my health, my plans, and my safety? Why should I put myself at any risk or inconvenience for something no more special than my left tonsil?

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She cries, "I just want to exist and abortion would have prevented that!" Well, many other things would have prevented your existence, so why does that mean that this one is evil?

Exactly! If she were consistent in her beliefs, she would have to be against abstinence, contraception, and sterilization. I wouldn't exist if my grandparents hadn't immigrated to Canada, so she'd also have to be against not immigrating to Canada. I wouldn't exist if my parents hadn't both worked out at a specific health club in my hometown, so she'd have to be against not working out. Or would she have to be against not working out at that specific health club? Come to think of it, I like the 4th survivor's hypocrisy if it's all that's keeping her from moving to my home town...

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Are you a vegan? A cow or chicken has more thought capacity and desire for life than a fetus.

Exactly, I have yet to meet a pro-lifer who isn't a meat-eater as well. The hypocrisy burns so much! I have found lots of vegetarians and vegans among pro-choicers though.

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