Abortion for 'medical reasons' 'legalised' in Tasmania

[Effie]

Hmm I wonder about the likelihood of postpartum depression in women who have been forced to undergo a pregnancy.

I can tell you this, 4:th survivor: I have a vulnerability for a certain kind of mental ill-health. If I would be forced to go through an unwanted pregnancy, you would most likely jeopardize my well-being and mental health. Can you tell me why you think I should be forced to take that risk? With my mental health history, I can't see how it would end well. The very likely outcome would be a) suicide attempt during pregnancy b) suicide attempt after pregnancy c)both a and b. The least likely outcome would be d) I would not attempt suicide. Note, you can't answer that you would lock me in (to protect me and the fetus from myself) because you wouldn't know beforehand about me being suicidal or not. The only thing you would know for sure is that my mental health would decline. So, would I be an exception-case for you? Should I be allowed to abort?

If yes, then why me? Why not other women who don't have a documented history of mental ill-health, but nevertheless would be risking their well-being and mental health? It's possible some of these women will try to end their lives. You don't know about that risk, since it's not documented.

If no, why? Just why?

[Effie]

Bumping this thread up again, in case the 4:th shows up. How's it going to be, survivor? Do you want Effie to die? :?

[FundieBunny]

Trying to argue people on THIS board out of their abortion beliefs seems like trying to put out the Black Saturday fires with an eyedropper full of water. If one needs to fulfill one's Jeebus Loves Mee and Hatez Da Evul Borshunists conversion attempt quota for the day, congrats! Mark the box, that's one pencil mark closer to Heaven. Go celebrate with a Salvation Meal at McCheesus.

I was an unwanted child. No abortions here, fundie Catholic family and all that. Parents didn't want me, were "forced" into it by peers, and my life has been a living hell because of it. Always a treat when your mom reminds you many times that she never wanted kids! Such a warm and fuzzy feeling.

Everytime some POS fundie tries to shove their PRESHUS BABBY rhetoric down my throat, it just adds ten more years onto the number of years that I'll stand by my beliefs. Right now I got enough Fundie Minutes added onto my life to keep my beliefs going well into this life and probably twenty of the next ones. Cheers!

[formergothardite]

I have really never gotten a anti-choice person to acknowledge that what they are doing can kill women and will most likely cause life long problems for the women. They will dance around it but it is like they are afraid to look at what their beliefs really do.

[Minerva]

I'd rather be adopted than aborted, wouldn't you?

This argument only works if you're trying to defend the fact that, if presented with the opportunity to go back in time and decide whether you will be aborted or adopted, you'd choose to be adopted. Because you exist already, your existence matters to you and you wouldn't want it to have not happened. That argument does not support your claim that it's wrong for pregnant people to have abortions because the child they could potentially have does not exist and therefore can't care about its own existence.

Furthermore, it's an absurd comparison. Being aborted happens to fetuses. Being adopted happens to babies. It's like comparing being adopted to be a tree that gets cut down. One act can be experienced and the other can't.

Many people have explained this to you, and yet you keep using the same silly argument. Normally in a debate, when someone refutes your argument, you can't keep using that argument unless you can refute their refutation. You have not attempted to do this. You have just kept repeating the same thing over and over again without refuting anyone's takedowns of your single argument. I think it's pretty clear that you're not equipped to be having this discussion.

[Anxious Girl]

* bumping this up 'cause she's back *

[GodsKnickers]

I'd rather be adopted than aborted, wouldn't you?

I don't know that adoption is any better. Not always. It probably would have been better if my teen mother had aborted me. My adoptive parents were horrifically abusive. Horrifically so. I could tell stories that would make your hair curl. Adoption is not the be all, end all it's presented as.

It just makes me doubly happy that I work with a group of women who had terminations for medical reasons and work incredibly hard to provide correct information and support to others in the same predicament. They are heroic, in my estimation.

[sugarloaf]

I think being aborted genuinely would have been the better choice for some people, and is for some potentially-could-be-people. I was a wanted, planned for baby, but given my health problems and some of the difficulties that I faced during my childhood, there are definitely times where I've thought that it would have been better if I'd been aborted (my parents could not have predicted much/ any of this, but it's immaterial as to my preference re my fate). There's an amount of suffering that no child should have to go through, which can lead to a legacy of broken and fragile adults. Sometimes then the cycle continues because broken adults reproduce. (I am in part talking about myself. If I ever fall pregnant- I take several precautions- I will abort as a matter of course, because I regard a child having me for a mother as an unspeakable cruelty)

I, for one, would rather that cycle never start and that it not be continued. Sometimes life is not worth living. (I'm doing better now. I've only been in therapy since I was twelve years old, and now, in my late twenties, am finally starting to turn stuff around. But I can't say it's been "worth it". I'd much rather not have had to spend my life struggling to cope with childhood trauma and chronic illness)

[Alice_Fraggle]

I honestly have to agree with everyone that says they'd rather be aborted. I wasn't me then so how I feel now doesn't matter about then. THEN I didn't know/feel anything. I'm glad to be here, but if my mom hadn't wanted to be pregnant or have another kid I'd rather have been aborted. As many previous posters have said - adoption isn't perfect. Some kids age out of the system without ever having a stable, loving family; some kids are abused by their adopted parents/foster parents; some kids run away; some live normal lives, but that doesn't mean they ALL do.

Also - as many posters have said - women can DIE during what appears to be a normal pregnancy. Not a risk I'm willing to take. And, for me, I agree with sugarloaf - "I regard a child having me for a mother as an unspeakable cruelty". I am not "Mom" material - I know that about myself (and have since an early age), so I take precaution to make sure I do NOT become pregnant.

I'm quite surprised that 4th didn't bring up birth control (hormonal) as abortion since I've seen many religious nuts state that hormonal birth control works by killing the implanted egg (I've never researched that as I don't really care either way if it does or doesn't). Abortion should be a CHOICE, and if a woman chooses that path than abortions should be SAFE. I'm tired of people not taking that into consideration. I don't think it's fair or right to take away a woman's option for a safe abortion. If abortion is outlawed women will start dying by botched abortions.

[alba]

The new Tasmania law is similar to that in the UK, where you need two referrals from doctors who believe the mental or physical wellbeing of the woman, her existing children, or the fetus is at risk because of the pregnancy. In practice, saying "I don't want to be pregnant" is reason enough to get that referral, because naturally continuing the pregnancy poses more of a threat to your mental wellbeing, not to mention the fact that being pregnant is more of a physical threat than having an abortion. It's still troubling, though, that the law pretty much states that women are not equipped to make this decision without input from medical professionals.

I wouldn't. If a woman's life is in danger then that's a different story. "I don't want a baby" isn't a good enough excuse though. If you don't want a baby or can't afford one then just put them up for adoption. Like I said I realize adoption's not perfect but I'd rather take my chances with that, wouldn't you?

I suggest you read this if you think adoption is an easy solution: http://www .shakesville.com/2009/03/breaking-silence-on-living-pro-lifers.html

Don't forget the fact that giving a child up for adoption still means sacrificing your body for nine months (and more, really, as it takes time to lose the baby weight). I'm not talking about this from a vanity perspective, but the fact is that for the better part of a year your body's state is a constant reminder of something you desperately don't want.

Also, there's the women like me who are so terrified of pregnancy and childbirth that I would undoubtedly become suicidal of I was pregnant and couldn't get an abortion. Surely even if an abortion is murder it's better to kill one and save the other than kill both.

On the topic of the woman's life being in danger, simply being pregnant puts a woman's life at risk. Because we have great medical care in the West these days, people forget that childbirth used to be a major killer of women (and still is in much of the world). My fiancé's mother was in her mid-twenties and had a totally normal pregnancy with him 25 years ago. Then the placenta fell out and she started hemorrhaging. If she hadn't already been in the hospital for a scan, she'd be dead. I value life too much to force any woman to put her life at risk like that. Not to mention women like Savita Halappanavar, who lives in a country where abortion is only legal to save the life of the mother and DID die because she couldn't get an abortion until it was too late.

I'm another who wouldn't have a problem with finding out my mother considered abortion. I wasn't a person then, I was just a lump of cells in her body making her vomit on the way to work every morning. Heck, if she'd wanted to have an abortion on that basis alone I'd understand, especially if the morning sickness was affecting her ability to parent her existing child. Now if she told me now that she wished she'd aborted me that would be a different story, because that would mean our entire relationship has meant nothing to her.

Besides all of the above, restricting abortion does not reduce the number of abortions, it simply increases the number of deaths from botched abortions. Improving access to birth control (did you know the UK has fewer abortions per 1000 women than the US, thanks to the NHS giving contraception out for free?), increasing awareness so people know how to prevent pregnancy, and providing systems that allow women who don't want to have an abortion to carry their pregnancy to term and raise their child (don't know about other countries, but the US has a high rate of abortion for financial reasons) are what reduce abortions, NOT restricting access.

[Alice_Fraggle]

The new Tasmania law is similar to that in the UK, where you need two referrals from doctors who believe the mental or physical wellbeing of the woman, her existing children, or the fetus is at risk because of the pregnancy. In practice, saying "I don't want to be pregnant" is reason enough to get that referral, because naturally continuing the pregnancy poses more of a threat to your mental wellbeing, not to mention the fact that being pregnant is more of a physical threat than having an abortion. It's still troubling, though, that the law pretty much states that women are not equipped to make this decision without input from medical professionals.

I suggest you read this if you think adoption is an easy solution: http://www .shakesville.com/2009/03/breaking-silence-on-living-pro-lifers.html

Don't forget the fact that giving a child up for adoption still means sacrificing your body for nine months (and more, really, as it takes time to lose the baby weight). I'm not talking about this from a vanity perspective, but the fact is that for the better part of a year your body's state is a constant reminder of something you desperately don't want.

Also, there's the women like me who are so terrified of pregnancy and childbirth that I would undoubtedly become suicidal of I was pregnant and couldn't get an abortion. Surely even if an abortion is murder it's better to kill one and save the other than kill both.

On the topic of the woman's life being in danger, simply being pregnant puts a woman's life at risk. Because we have great medical care in the West these days, people forget that childbirth used to be a major killer of women (and still is in much of the world). My fiancé's mother was in her mid-twenties and had a totally normal pregnancy with him 25 years ago. Then the placenta fell out and she started hemorrhaging. If she hadn't already been in the hospital for a scan, she'd be dead. I value life too much to force any woman to put her life at risk like that. Not to mention women like Savita Halappanavar, who lives in a country where abortion is only legal to save the life of the mother and DID die because she couldn't get an abortion until it was too late.

I'm another who wouldn't have a problem with finding out my mother considered abortion. I wasn't a person then, I was just a lump of cells in her body making her vomit on the way to work every morning. Heck, if she'd wanted to have an abortion on that basis alone I'd understand, especially if the morning sickness was affecting her ability to parent her existing child. Now if she told me now that she wished she'd aborted me that would be a different story, because that would mean our entire relationship has meant nothing to her.

Besides all of the above, restricting abortion does not reduce the number of abortions, it simply increases the number of deaths from botched abortions. Improving access to birth control (did you know the UK has fewer abortions per 1000 women than the US, thanks to the NHS giving contraception out for free?), increasing awareness so people know how to prevent pregnancy, and providing systems that allow women who don't want to have an abortion to carry their pregnancy to term and raise their child (don't know about other countries, but the US has a high rate of abortion for financial reasons) are what reduce abortions, NOT restricting access.

You said everything I meant but way better! I swear you're my twin (at least in thought on this topic)!

[alba]

You said everything I meant but way better! I swear you're my twin (at least in thought on this topic)!

Aww, thanks :)

[Anxious Girl]

* bumping this up 'cause she's back *

[bananacat]

If I had been aborted*, I wouldn't exist to know or care about it, just exactly the same as if I had never been conceived, if my parents had never met, etc.

*I'm a linguistic descriptivist, but I loathe this new phrasing that is a cheap appeal to emotion. People aren't aborted. Babies, fetuses, and embryos aren't aborted. Processes are aborted. Pregnancy is aborted, not the embryo or fetus.

[the 4th survivor]

You have this thing bookmarked don't you Anxious Girl?

Anyway I'm really not sure what else to say. Like I said you guys don't seem to put the same value on life that most people do. When I said none of you would be here if you were aborted I was told "so what?" as if it wasn't a big deal. You accuse right wingers of not caring about people after they are born but you are equally bad because you think a fetus is just an object that can be thrown away on a whim. All of us were fetuses at one point so that mindset doesn't make any sense to me. I can understand getting an abortion for a medical reason (or rape) but otherwise it is just a very selfish thing to do.

Before you give me the whole "you want to force a woman to do something that can kill her" shtick, death from pregnancy in the US is pretty rare. 14.5 out of 100,000 live births (http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/12/ ... P220101202) and that includes the women that had prior health conditions as well. If you only counted women who were totally healthy the death rate would be even lower. Besides, most abortions are not done out of health concerns, but rather because the woman doesn't want a child. This is selfish and could be solved by simply putting the baby up for adoption. An imperfect solution yes, but much better than not being alive.

[formergothardite]

It doesn't matter, if the rate is low, it can still kill women and cause life long damage to their health. So please admit that you value the lives of women so little that you would be willing to force them to die or suffer life long damage to their health for a fetus. Wanting to not die, suffer for months on end, have a lower quality of life or have live with life long consequences of pregnancy and childbirth because of an unwanted pregnancy isn't being selfish.

[formergothardite]

I have to wonder why people like the 4th Survivor or pretty much any anti-choice person never wants to discuss the damage done by forcing a woman to be pregnant against her will. Why? Is it really that they don't value women? Or is it that they don't want to think about what their beliefs to do women? Do they just want to stay in a magical little world where women give birth with no pain, death, or problems and pretend that the women are just going to be okay? And if they discuss this part of the abortion controversy they can no longer tell themselves that it doesn't hurt women?

[GolightlyGrrl]

I have to wonder why people like the 4th Survivor or pretty much any anti-choice person never wants to discuss the damage done by forcing a woman to be pregnant against her will. Why? Is it really that they don't value women? Or is it that they don't want to think about what their beliefs to do women? Do they just want to stay in a magical little world where women give birth with no pain, death, or problems and pretend that the women are just going to be okay? And if they discuss this part of the abortion controversy they can no longer tell themselves that it doesn't hurt women?

And don't they realize that even in abortion was made illegal women would still seek them out?

[GodsKnickers]

Because it's never about the woman. Ever. She's just the breeder. And it's not ever about the birthed child after, either. It's only ever about the fetus, while it's inhabiting a womb. After the birth, they don't give a fuck about the actual child.

[Anxious Girl]

You have this thing bookmarked don't you Anxious Girl?

Anyway I'm really not sure what else to say. Like I said you guys don't seem to put the same value on life that most people do. When I said none of you would be here if you were aborted I was told "so what?" as if it wasn't a big deal. You accuse right wingers of not caring about people after they are born but you are equally bad because you think a fetus is just an object that can be thrown away on a whim. All of us were fetuses at one point so that mindset doesn't make any sense to me. I can understand getting an abortion for a medical reason (or rape) but otherwise it is just a very selfish thing to do.

Before you give me the whole "you want to force a woman to do something that can kill her" shtick, death from pregnancy in the US is pretty rare. 14.5 out of 100,000 live births (http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/12/ ... P220101202) and that includes the women that had prior health conditions as well. If you only counted women who were totally healthy the death rate would be even lower. Besides, most abortions are not done out of health concerns, but rather because the woman doesn't want a child. This is selfish and could be solved by simply putting the baby up for adoption. An imperfect solution yes, but much better than not being alive.

U mad that I got it bookmarked? Freedom of speech and everything; so that means I get to bookmark it. So you wouldn't care if a kid found out that their biomother didn't want them but was forced to have them and instead of getting adopted; they remained in the adoption and/ foster care system for much of their childhood instead of being a wanted baby because you wanted to "save" them? My ovaries that go through menopauses aren't people, and thus aren't life to me. Why do I need to be justifying my beliefs to you if God judges but his people shouldn't? You're a sick fuck who's hypocritical.

So, he cares if a woman doesn't want to go through her pregnancy if she's pregnant? It's none of your business to decide whether or not she should be forced to continue with her pregnancy. That article wasn't upgraded; so try again.

[Maul the Koala]

You have this thing bookmarked don't you Anxious Girl?

Anyway I'm really not sure what else to say. Like I said you guys don't seem to put the same value on life that most people do. When I said none of you would be here if you were aborted I was told "so what?" as if it wasn't a big deal. You accuse right wingers of not caring about people after they are born but you are equally bad because you think a fetus is just an object that can be thrown away on a whim. All of us were fetuses at one point so that mindset doesn't make any sense to me. I can understand getting an abortion for a medical reason (or rape) but otherwise it is just a very selfish thing to do.

Before you give me the whole "you want to force a woman to do something that can kill her" shtick, death from pregnancy in the US is pretty rare. 14.5 out of 100,000 live births (http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/12/ ... P220101202) and that includes the women that had prior health conditions as well. If you only counted women who were totally healthy the death rate would be even lower. Besides, most abortions are not done out of health concerns, but rather because the woman doesn't want a child. This is selfish and could be solved by simply putting the baby up for adoption. An imperfect solution yes, but much better than not being alive.

You know what else is selfish? Making someone bring an unwanted child into this world because someone else thinks its the right thing to do.

"Oh you can always put the baby up for adoption!"

Well yeah, if the baby is white, healthy and your partner/family supports you putting it up for adoption. Miss one of those three factors and baby is either being raised by the woman or gets to languish in the foster care system. It's not as simple as you'd like it to be.

[Salamander]

Adoption and abortion solve different problems. Adoption is the solution to finding someone to care for a child one doesn't want to parent. Abortion is the solution to an unwanted pregnancy. What are your solutions for people with unwanted pregnancies, the 4th survivor?

And consenting to sex does not mean you have consented to pregnancy. Others here have already brought up numerous times the threat a pregnancy poses to a woman's mental and physical health. What about the potential threat to her career? Her other children? Over 60% of U.S. women who have abortions already have kids ([link=http://www.guttmacher.org/media/presskits/abortion-US/statsandfacts.html]source[/link]).

Anyway I'm really not sure what else to say. Like I said you guys don't seem to put the same value on life that most people do. When I said none of you would be here if you were aborted I was told "so what?" as if it wasn't a big deal. You accuse right wingers of not caring about people after they are born but you are equally bad because you think a fetus is just an object that can be thrown away on a whim. All of us were fetuses at one point so that mindset doesn't make any sense to me. I can understand getting an abortion for a medical reason (or rape) but otherwise it is just a very selfish thing to do.

Why is it okay to abort fetuses conceived by rape but not ones conceived by consensual sex? The standing pro-life logic [sic] I've encountered for this seems to be that the woman has suffered enough by being raped, no need to make her suffer more by forcing her to carry to term. But either all fetuses are preshus snowflakes who had nothing to do with the way they were conceived and thus deserve unfettered access to a wide and bountiful womb...or they're not. No need to rank them by the circumstances of their conception.

Rape is a violation of someone's personhood and bodily autonomy. So is forced pregnancy.

Lastly, fetuses being "thrown away on a whim"? That is immensely disrespectful to women who have made the decision to terminate a pregnancy. For some it's an easy decision, for others a hard one, but we don't saunter into clinics any ole time and get abortions for the fuck of it. Your wording and thought process, just...no. :hand:

[alba]

You have this thing bookmarked don't you Anxious Girl?

Anyway I'm really not sure what else to say. Like I said you guys don't seem to put the same value on life that most people do. When I said none of you would be here if you were aborted I was told "so what?" as if it wasn't a big deal. You accuse right wingers of not caring about people after they are born but you are equally bad because you think a fetus is just an object that can be thrown away on a whim. All of us were fetuses at one point so that mindset doesn't make any sense to me. I can understand getting an abortion for a medical reason (or rape) but otherwise it is just a very selfish thing to do.

You don't seem to put the same value on women that most people do.

[Guest Anonymous]

the 4th survivor is a straightforward troll. There is no need to poke it with a stick.

This troll has come up with a lot of shit (in no particular order):

1) Anti-racism is a conspiracy against white people.

2) Everyone should have guns and should shoot people who work for Child Protective Services.

3) Rape victims are responsible for the crimes committed against them.

4) Some transphobic bullshit (aimed at a 6-year-old kid).

5) Some random crap about guns (I didn't bother to read it but it included calling someone "That Zionist").

6) The anti-choice bullshit that appears in this thread.

It's time for the troll to go back under the bridge.

[Salamander]

I don't expect the troll to engage thoughtfully with anyone's responses, or even respond at all, but back when I was a lurker, I learned a lot from rebuttals to trolls even when they never returned to the thread. This is not to say that anyone has to take time to respond to trolls in either posts either sincere or sarcastic, pithy or lengthy, but just that people dropping by may find such posts beneficial and interesting.

That said, thanks, Shosholoza, for compiling a list of their Greatest Hits, as it were. I missed a couple of those...gems.