Abortion for 'medical reasons' 'legalised' in Tasmania

[Vex]

Apparently a lot of women in Tasmania, Australia are currently having to fly to Melbourne to get abortions. While abortion isn't completely illegal in TAS, the law currently states:

- A woman must be no more than 12 weeks pregnant to have an abortion.

- A woman must obtain two written statements from two different doctors testifying to the medical need for an abortion.

- The woman must receive counseling after having the abortion.

There are only two doctors in the whole state who perform abortions. The state government is hoping to increase the number of clinics that provide abortions by 'relaxing' the rules to the following:

- The woman can have an abortion up to 24 weeks.

- She must still have 2 letters from 2 doctors testifying to the medical need for an abortion.

- No mention of counseling.

I am fervently hoping that when a woman asks the doctor for a letter, the doctors don't use a strict code whereupon the woman's life must be in imminent danger from continuing the pregnancy. After all, a doctor can say a woman who already has 6 kids will have a high risk pregnancy and it would be true. A teenager could also be written off as being high risk.

But this bothers me a lot.

It says that 'I don't want to be a mother' isn't an acceptable reason to have an abortion. Even if the doctors find a reason for every woman who asks for a legal abortion, it means that the government is condemning women for not wanting their pregnancies. It says to me that the potential person they are growing in their wombs is more important than the woman who is hosting it.

It seems hypocritical to say they want more clinics to open, but then demand that women only disrupt pregnancies for medical reasons. It's not enough for a woman to just say 'I do not want this pregnancy'.

[sugarloaf]

I had no idea Tasmania was so retrograde in that regard. It's good that they're looking to liberalise the law, but it's still quite harsh compared to other states.

I wonder whether this will, in practice, go the way of New South Wales' law. My recollection is that NSW's law is written in such a way that makes it look like there needs to be a medical reason for abortion, but in practice "social reasons" are acceptable. I can only hope so, for the sake of the women in Tasmania, particularly those who can't afford a trip to Melbourne.

[Vex]

Sometimes I forget how conservative Australia is in many ways.

In the US it seems like the laws on abortion are fueled by religious beliefs.

In Australia we don't have huge crowds mobbing places that perform abortion services, and those whose conservative values stem directly from Christianity seem like the minority (and usually a fairly quiet one at that). Yet we have laws like these in place, no states allow gay marriage, it's extremely difficult to get donors for eggs/sperm/surrogates for gay couples and in many states (mine included) gay couples can't adopt. In a lot of ways we're far more backwards than America.

[miffy]

I'll never forget when a 'friend' told our circle of friends that she was pregnant & wanted us to lend her money to get an abortion. She then went to tassie to see her family over christmas. When she was asked about the pregnancy she told us that she got an abortion in Tasmania & then proceeded to make excuses like 'oh well I went to a special part of Tasmania to get it' :lol:

Consenting sex between two men wasn't decriminalized in Tasmania until the late 90s.

[August]

Sometimes I forget how conservative Australia is in many ways.

In the US it seems like the laws on abortion are fueled by religious beliefs.

In Australia we don't have huge crowds mobbing places that perform abortion services, and those whose conservative values stem directly from Christianity seem like the minority (and usually a fairly quiet one at that). Yet we have laws like these in place, no states allow gay marriage, it's extremely difficult to get donors for eggs/sperm/surrogates for gay couples and in many states (mine included) gay couples can't adopt. In a lot of ways we're far more backwards than America.

Ugh, ipad deleted my post. This one will be shorter.

They have legal gay marriage in New York, in Tennessee the legislation giving to vote to women was ratified in 1984. The country's not called "the united states" for nothing. It's a collection of very very different places, andoften the only way the southern states are beaten into humanity is by force of numbers from the civilised parts. They sent the army in to protect kids desegregating schools.

Mixed race marriage was legalised in Alabama in 2000.

http://www.worldsfamousphotos.com/2007/ ... tion-1957/

http://www.aolnews.com/2011/04/08/46-pe ... -marriage/

[Drina Adams]

In Ireland we're still waiting on abortion to be made legal only where the woman's life, not her health is at risk. There's no proposal to extend abortion beyond that precise criteria.

[Vex]

This is just horrifying. I think a lot of people don't realise just how backwards gay and womens rights are right in their own backyards.

[the 4th survivor]

It says that 'I don't want to be a mother' isn't an acceptable reason to have an abortion. Even if the doctors find a reason for every woman who asks for a legal abortion, it means that the government is condemning women for not wanting their pregnancies. It says to me that the potential person they are growing in their wombs is more important than the woman who is hosting it.

It seems hypocritical to say they want more clinics to open, but then demand that women only disrupt pregnancies for medical reasons. It's not enough for a woman to just say 'I do not want this pregnancy'.

That's not a good reason to kill your unborn child. Now I'm not gonna sit here and debate about what a fetus is or isn't but here's the bottom line. If your parents had an abortion, you wouldn't be alive right now. Now whether you use the term unborn baby, unborn child, fetus, embryo, or whatever, I'm sure you can understand that. Having an abortion just because you don't want a baby is terribly selfish. I don't know about you but if my mom and dad told me they would've had an abortion if they decided they weren't ready for me I'd be pretty upset and rightly so.

[OkToBeTakei]

That's not a good reason to kill your unborn child. Now I'm not gonna sit here and debate about what a fetus is or isn't but here's the bottom line. If your parents had an abortion, you wouldn't be alive right now. Now whether you use the term unborn baby, unborn child, fetus, embryo, or whatever, I'm sure you can understand that. Having an abortion just because you don't want a baby is terribly selfish. I don't know about you but if my mom and dad told me they would've had an abortion if they decided they weren't ready for me I'd be pretty upset and rightly so.

Very, very occasionally I want to say something extremely un PC. Right now I am totally sitting on my hands.

[Guest Anonymous]

That's not a good reason to kill your unborn child. Now I'm not gonna sit here and debate about what a fetus is or isn't but here's the bottom line. If your parents had an abortion, you wouldn't be alive right now. Now whether you use the term unborn baby, unborn child, fetus, embryo, or whatever, I'm sure you can understand that. Having an abortion just because you don't want a baby is terribly selfish. I don't know about you but if my mom and dad told me they would've had an abortion if they decided they weren't ready for me I'd be pretty upset and rightly so.

That's a ridiculous argument. If I'd been aborted I wouldn't be here to get upset about anything. If my mother wasn't such a dimwit at taking her pills, I'd not be here either. There was nothing special or mystical about mine or many of my friends' conceptions.

My mum was actually offered an abortion, without asking, when she was pregnant with me, because she already had several young children and was poor and, frankly, not the world's most natural mother. She refused because the idea horrified her. Her choice and I'm happy to be alive now I'm here. In theory though, I think the whole family would possibly have been less poor, less stressed and better attended to if she'd chosen not to have me. I'm not going to get depressed about it or do away with myself, but I see no harm in speculating and learning from it and being damned sure I'd never have more children than I had the money and energy to raise.

[the 4th survivor]

That's a ridiculous argument. If I'd been aborted I wouldn't be here to get upset about anything. If my mother wasn't such a dimwit at taking her pills, I'd not be here either. There was nothing special or mystical about mine or many of my friends' conceptions.

My mum was actually offered an abortion, without asking, when she was pregnant with me, because she already had several young children and was poor and, frankly, not the world's most natural mother. She refused because the idea horrified her. Her choice and I'm happy to be alive now I'm here. In theory though, I think the whole family would possibly have been less poor, less stressed and better attended to if she'd chosen not to have me. I'm not going to get depressed about it or do away with myself, but I see no harm in speculating and learning from it and being damned sure I'd never have more children than I had the money and energy to raise.

You misread what I said. I didn't say "how would you feel if you were aborted?" If you spoke to your parents right now and they told you they would have had an abortion if they didn't want you back then, how would you feel? I'd be pretty fucking hurt personally. I'd feel like my existence on this earth was worth so little to them that they would be willing to throw it away on a whim. Of course I know they'd never say that but I'd be pretty mad at them if they did.

You seem to put little value on your own life. "Well it was my mother's choice to have me and I'm happy to be alive but if I wasn't, hey that's fine too, they might have even had more money!" Are you serious? Your life takes priority over your mother's financial status.

[Widget]

That's not a good reason to kill your unborn child.

No, but it is a good reason to terminate an unwanted pregnancy.

Now I'm not gonna sit here and debate about what a fetus is or isn't but here's the bottom line. If your parents had an abortion, you wouldn't be alive right now. Now whether you use the term unborn baby, unborn child, fetus, embryo, or whatever, I'm sure you can understand that.

If my parents aborted me, I would have lacked the nervous system development or awareness necessary to give a shit.

Fetus, embryo, baby, and child ≠ interchangeable words for the same thing. They are separate and very distinct stages of development. Anti-choicers use them interchangeably, but they are different things.

Having an abortion just because you don't want a baby is terribly selfish. I don't know about you but if my mom and dad told me they would've had an abortion if they decided they weren't ready for me I'd be pretty upset and rightly so.

Bringing another unwanted child into this world is terribly selfish. I don't know about you but if my mom told me she really didn't want me but had me anyway because big sky daddy says it's bad to not to, I'd be upset and rightfully so.

I was a surprise pregnancy and my mother has said she considered aborting me. I am not bothered because I am an adult capable of considering the complex issues that go into a woman considering termination.

In summary... :shhh: grownups are talking.

[August]

That's not a good reason to kill your unborn child. Now I'm not gonna sit here and debate about what a fetus is or isn't but here's the bottom line. If your parents had an abortion, you wouldn't be alive right now. Now whether you use the term unborn baby, unborn child, fetus, embryo, or whatever, I'm sure you can understand that. Having an abortion just because you don't want a baby is terribly selfish. I don't know about you but if my mom and dad told me they would've had an abortion if they decided they weren't ready for me I'd be pretty upset and rightly so.

Fuck off and die, troll.

[Widget]

Fuck off and die, troll.

:clap: Perfect response.

[Anxious Girl]

That's not a good reason to kill your unborn child. Now I'm not gonna sit here and debate about what a fetus is or isn't but here's the bottom line. If your parents had an abortion, you wouldn't be alive right now. Now whether you use the term unborn baby, unborn child, fetus, embryo, or whatever, I'm sure you can understand that. Having an abortion just because you don't want a baby is terribly selfish. I don't know about you but if my mom and dad told me they would've had an abortion if they decided they weren't ready for me I'd be pretty upset and rightly so.

So? What if that aborted fetus had become the next Hitler, Kim Jong, Pol Pot or Stalin? I don't care if I Godwinned myself; I made a good point. You contradicted yourself by typing, "Now I'm not gonnna sit her and debate about what a fetus is or isn't but here's the bottom lin." (It's like saying, "I'm not gonna compare abortions to the Holocaust; but millions of babies die every year." You just insulted Holocaust victims and their families and friends.)

Then you go on to "explain" that "If your parents had an abortion, you wouldn't be alive right now. Now whether you use the term unborn baby, unborn child, fetus, embryo, or whatever, I'm sure you can understand that. Having an abortion just because you don't want a baby is terribly selfish." Um; you do know that even if my ma didn't have an abortion; there's only certain DNA, sperm, zygotes and chances that it would take to make me? Plus the enviorment I was raised in and who I was raised by and what my interests make me who I am; not that I once was a fetus. I'm disgusted that all you think I am was because I grew in my ma's uterus. I am who I am because of my likes; dislikes; how my parents brought me up; and who I grew up with in my enviroment.

A sperm meeting an egg doesn't create somebody's personality. In another universe; my ma probably didn't have me; because the DNA, sperm, zygote, and chances were different; along with social developments. So again; to recap; I'm royally pissed that you seem to think that just because a sperm meets an egg it creates my personality; because even if my ma hadn't an abortion; she could've married somebody else; and the results would've been different. So should we have conception days instead of birthdays and our ages be 1 year more because of this? Should we list pregnant women on censuses as having 1 more person in the house because she's pregnant? What if after she wrote that she had 1 more person in the house because she was pregnant on the census, then afterwards she miscarried and fucked up the census?

But you don't care about the greater good; do you? You just care about youreself; because you think each human is special. Just because humans strive to their potential to make the best out of their lives and become good people doesn't mean that we deserve an award. I'm sorry to burst your bubble; wait no I'm not; because we're not. Who cares about the family name being cared on? What has your family contributed to the world?

Oh, wait you only care about youreself. Go fuck youreself with a lego.

[Effie]

Widget, you're awesome! Perfectly reasonable responses.

We are way too many people on this earth already. If I had been aborted, the world would not have been a worse place. No, I don't find the idea of being aborted repulsive. As long as children die from starvation, I can't "justify" my existence. The pro-life movement feels so elitistic to me. It's like "The living can't possibly take percedence over the not yet living." I find that screwed up. It's like fetuses are more important than already born children. Why is that? Because a whole lot of the poor, sick and hungry children on this earth are "black"? I seriously wonder why their lives seem to count very little in the eyes of a pro-lifer...

[Maul the Koala]

How would I feel if I was aborted? No idea, considering I wouldn't be around to contemplate that thought. Interesting huh?

[ILoveJellybeans]

What would be worse?

A woman who gets pregnant by accident and doesnt want a baby, so has an abortion a few weeks after she finds out, or a woman who gets pregnant by accident, isnt allowed an abortion so has the baby but abuses him and reminds it every day how much she hates him, wishes she had an abortion and says getting pregnant ruined her life?

Just cause someone cant abort, doesnt mean she will instantly fall in love with her baby, want to keep it and magically gain the resources needed to give it an awesome life.

Adoption doesnt always work out either, as theres less people adopting than there are babies being put up for adoption, and not all adoptive parents are loving and good.

[formergothardite]

That's not a good reason to kill your unborn child. Now I'm not gonna sit here and debate about what a fetus is or isn't but here's the bottom line. If your parents had an abortion, you wouldn't be alive right now. Now whether you use the term unborn baby, unborn child, fetus, embryo, or whatever, I'm sure you can understand that. Having an abortion just because you don't want a baby is terribly selfish. I don't know about you but if my mom and dad told me they would've had an abortion if they decided they weren't ready for me I'd be pretty upset and rightly so.

I would rather be aborted than raised by someone who didn't want me or couldn't care for me.

[Magdelope]

The selfish thing really confuses me.

How could it be selfish to have an abortion? If you are not ready or want the child it is selfish to have it just to please other people.

Both me and my little sister were quite big surprises (especially me, I arrived at a "bad time") my mum contemplated abortion for both of us but decided she really wanted us both. We are happy to be here and that's that. It doesn't hurt me even remotely. It's not even something I think about.

[Anxious Girl]

Aw, look, it's back online. It's too chickenshit to talk to us! :lol: :animals-chickencatch:

[Miggy]

I had an abortion in NSW. The doctor put down "mental health issues" as my medical reason. She said that that forcing an eighteen year old to have a baby she didn't want could cause mental health issues. Counselling was compulsory too but it was just a single session and was really just to check you knew what you were doing and weren't going to regret it later. I think there might have been counselling available afterwards too but only if you wanted it. (I felt nothing but relief afterwards and I went out for dinner with my partner.)

I know Tassie has a reputation for being more conservative than NSW but I would hope there are doctors prepared to take the same attitude to those that I encountered. I am right in thinking that Victoria didn't allow abortions for a long time either? IIRC there were articles on the news when I was a child (1980s) about Victorian women travelling across the border to have abortions in NSW.

[formergothardite]

I have found that when people say controversial things and then say "I'm not going to debate this" it usually means that they aren't capable of defending what they said.

[Minerva]

You misread what I said. I didn't say "how would you feel if you were aborted?" If you spoke to your parents right now and they told you they would have had an abortion if they didn't want you back then, how would you feel? I'd be pretty fucking hurt personally. I'd feel like my existence on this earth was worth so little to them that they would be willing to throw it away on a whim. Of course I know they'd never say that but I'd be pretty mad at them if they did.

You seem to put little value on your own life. "Well it was my mother's choice to have me and I'm happy to be alive but if I wasn't, hey that's fine too, they might have even had more money!" Are you serious? Your life takes priority over your mother's financial status.

Of course my mother would have had an abortion if she didn't want to carry a pregnancy to term back then i.e. if she didn't want "me" (not that I even existed back then). She would have used birth control and/or condoms with my dad if she didn't want to be pregnant back then i.e. if she didn't want "me". My dad would have refused to have sex with her if she insisted on trying for a baby and he didn't want one i.e. if he didn't want "me". Yes, 4th survivor, if my parents didn't want a kid 20-something years ago, they wouldn't have had me. Because people who don't want a kid right now usually don't have a kid right now. There's nothing shocking about that. The only logical way someone could be butthurt over knowing their mother would have had an abortion if she didn't want them is if they believed that fetuses are people. Because for them it would be a matter of "OMG you would have done this terrible thing to me just because you didn't want a kid?" not just "Well duh, of course you wouldn't have had me if you didn't want a kid." Do you believe in fetal personhood? If so, we expect people to be able to defend their beliefs here.

But let's suppose the fact that our parents could have not had us was worth getting butthurt over. How is that an argument against having an abortion? If you have an abortion, there won't be anyone to be butthurt about it. You say it's wrong for me to have an abortion because if I didn't have an abortion, my kid would have been sad knowing that I would have had an abortion if I wanted to. If anything, that's an argument against carrying a pregnancy to term if you're undecided about it, because then there will actually be someone to be butthurt when they find out that you were undecided about the pregnancy. It is not, however, an argument against having an abortion.

[the 4th survivor]

No, but it is a good reason to terminate an unwanted pregnancy.

That's just codeword for killing your unborn child.

Fetus, embryo, baby, and child ≠ interchangeable words for the same thing. They are separate and very distinct stages of development. Anti-choicers use them interchangeably, but they are different things.

While it's true that they are different stages of development, the changes happen gradually, not all at once. There's very little difference between a baby a week before being born and a week after. What makes it okay in your mind to kill one but not the other? You go through separate and distinct stages of development after you are born as well. You go from infant to child to teenager to adult to elderly and killing a child would net you the same murder charge as killing an adult would. What's your point?

If you were aborted you wouldn't be alive right now. If you were strangled 5 minutes after being born, you wouldn't be alive right now. I'm not really seeing a major difference between the two.

Bringing another unwanted child into this world is terribly selfish. I don't know about you but if my mom told me she really didn't want me but had me anyway because big sky daddy says it's bad to not to, I'd be upset and rightfully so.

I was a surprise pregnancy and my mother has said she considered aborting me. I am not bothered because I am an adult capable of considering the complex issues that go into a woman considering termination.

How is that selfish? I would say raising and taking care of a child that you were not really ready for is one of the most selfless things you can do. Your mom thought about aborting you but chose not to so why would you be bothered? Hopefully she realized how terrible it was and that's why she reconsidered.

In summary... :shhh: grownups are talking.

You mean like Anxious Girl? "Go fuck yourself with a lego!" :lol: I don't even know what to say about all that nonsense she wrote. It was just one long emotional rant filled with half-truths, strawman arguments and contradictions. I only care about myself because I think every human is special? Wtf does that even mean?