Lori Alexander: Medicine is Bad, Mmkay?

[YPestis]

Things are getting kind of heated in here, isn't it?

I think people here are stressing about a nonexistent disagreement. We know that diet, exercise and genes are major components of health. I'd say diet and exercise (thinks we can control) constitutes roughly 50% of the health issues I see. Genes are probably the other half. For some people, it's mostly genes, for others, it's mostly behavior. Overall, it breaks down to half environmental and half genetics if I spliced all the patients together.

As a third year med student, I once spoke with an older attending about the complicated drug regimen of our patients. He said he remembered back when a few pills were the extent of what the sickest patients would get. When I asked him why that's changed, he replied that what we see in hospitals now are patients who would never have survived in his intern days. As we extended their lives, we had to expand their medicine regimen to continue to keep them alive. These patients aren't usually "cured" with medications but we can keep them in steady equilibrium a bit longer with it. As their health naturally degenerates, we pile on more medicines to keep them alive.

That said, our age will catch up with us, as does our unhealthy habits. All that drinking, smoking, sedentary activity affects us more as we age. Good genes plays a role, but so do our choices. I think Lori and her ilk tend to see disease as completely controlled by external factors (i.e diet, exercise). That's as dangerous as thinking that disease is purely genetic and therefore nothing we do matters. Instead of viewing disease as a genes vs lifestyle proposition, people should look at it as a merging of those two factors. Not everyone will get diabetes, but if we have a predisposition to it already, lifestyles may determine the outcome of that disease. Or it may not. Then you go to the doctor. I don't wish ill will towards Lori, even though she's spreading ignorant and dangerous ideas with her anti-medicine rants. However, if she would spend some time in a hospital, maybe she'll have a better understanding of the true state of health in our country. It's far more complicated than "eat our vegetables to keep away the cancer".

[Minerva]

No, I took one part of her post to say it wasn't bad and have repeatedly mentioned genetics, luck, my own support of medicine and pharmaceuticals and have been told I am blaming people for the cancer they get. My point has been to show that prevention is important and drugs can be unnecessary and harmful and there can be alternatives. I was told to cite sources for my crazy claims that Americans are largely obese and getting unhealthier due to food/exercise choices. Had no idea it would be so controversial. The medical community is saying the same thing I am. Bad food leads to obesity leads to disease and antibiotics need to be prescribed less. Yes your Aunt Sarah ran an organic farm and died at 35. Yes your neighbors kids wash down their lunchables with strawberry milk and they are the healthiest kids you know. That doesn't change the general idea that healthy choices can prevent a state of unhealth and vice versa.

Yes, you've said over and over that healthy lifestyles are important in preventing disease. You've provided sources to back this up, though you're right that it's an obvious thing that shouldn't require sources. Here's the thing, though. No one's disagreeing with you on that, nor did they ask you for a source on that particular thing.

Wolfie initially disagreed with you by saying that she thinks we see more chronic illness nowadays because modern medicine keeps more people alive longer. Burris' initial reply to you pointed out that sedentary lifestyles are also part of the problem, that stopping only certain medications will lead to improved health, and asked for a source on the following claim:

Doctors ARE quick to hand out antibiotics, painkillers, anxiety meds, etc. Americans consume a lot of drugs. They don't consume enough real foods.

See? No one contested the idea that healthy eating prevents disease. Yet this is about when you started acting as if someone did.

And here you go again, blowing up strawmen. I said you weren't catching the nuance in people's posts, which you arguably aren't since people are disagreeing with parts of what you say, and you keep arguing points they didn't disagree with. Then you come along and basically say "No I am being nuanced, they're the ones who won't believe this perfectly reasonable claim". The first part is true. You're not excelling at reading comprehension today, but you are being nuanced. However, I never said you weren't. The second part is bollocks because everyone agrees with you on preventative healthy eating and unhealthy diets being linked to certain diseases. You claimed that you're being accused of blaming cancer victims for their cancer. LainieR said that about Lori, not you.

[NotALoserLikeYou]

Edited because I need to read this on the computer not my phone

[NotALoserLikeYou]

Someone, nor Burris, said it appeared I was blaming people who get cancer for their cancer. This is when I started rebutting this.

[Minerva]

Someone, nor Burris, said it appeared I was blaming people who get cancer for their cancer. This is when I started rebutting this.

You're right, I found the post in question.

[NotALoserLikeYou]

Mockingbird said, in response to me:

To me it comes off like you are blaming people who get cancer for getting it because they weren't being "proactive" enough, and that's offensive.

Do you have anything to support your claim that cancer rates are *dramatically* decreased if you lose weight or follow a healthier diet? Curious because there have been numerous studies that prove obvious direct links between certain behaviors or risk factors and cancer (i.e. smoking, radiation [like with Chernobyl], certain occupations like coal mining) but everything I have read/heard about nutrition and exercise has been more general, like that you will improve your health overall so by default that includes generalized cancer risk, but nothing that says obesity, for example, is specifically linked to a significantly increased risk of cancer.

----

So I did try to prove I was not blaming anyone for anything just saying the whole some people/studies show/eating/ spiel. I did feel the need to defend myself because I do not go around attacking cancer patients.

[Jinger Jar]

I wish I could find a few of these docs who hand out psychotropics like they're Halloween candy. In 2010 my husband had to take me to the ER because I was overcome with panic attacks three times before my GP agreed to anti-depressants and my psychologist was Okay with it. And this was only because I put my foot down and said that while yoga and walking and psychotherapy and whole foods and prayer and soothing music were helpful, they were not preventing me from waking up at 3:00 a.m., unable to breathe, unable to stop shaking and crying, and unable to stop racing thoughts that my life was going to hell on the bullet train.

Three damned times I thought I was dying, three damned times my husband was terrified I was having a heart attack or something, and three damned times my beautiful step-daughters had the living daylights scared out of them in the middle of the night before my health care providers were convinced I needed something more than chamomile tea and a massage.

And for those who've never had one, a panic attack feels like an elephant sitting on your chest while someone is holding a wet towel over your mouth and nose and telling you that you're a worthless turd over and over.

I started experiencing anxiety in my mid-40s, the same age my mother started having problems with anxiety, and the same age her mother started having problems with anxiety. I did not want to suffer what I watched them struggle with, so off I went to my GP at the first signs of trouble. Oh, she said I was fat, so that meant I was not exercising, and this lack of exercise was making me glum. No matter I was exercising four times a week at my gym, I obviously wasn't getting enough or else I wouldn't be so fat, right? And then she told me to eat more fruits and vegetables, and after I showed her 30 days of a food diary, she told me to eat more organics. And then she thought it was my thyroid, and after that she suspected I had a heart condition. Then it was the old fat person stand-by - diabetes. When all the tests everything came back a-Okay, she recommended kava kava and gave me a brochure for a yoga studio and the name of a psychotherapist.

And I had the same conversations with the therapist I had with my GP - my heart, my thyroid, and my pancreas were fine. Yoga was lovely, but it didn't prevent uncontrollable thoughts that everything was falling apart. Chamomile tea was delicious, but it didn't stop me from waking up every single morning between 2:00 and 3:00 a.m. and lay awake until dawn trying to calm racing thoughts and gather the courage to get out of bed and go to work.

So anyway, after 18 months of going around and around with these people and my third panic attack in 60 days, I finally got a prescription for an anti-depressant and an anti-anxiety. My therapist wanted me to assure her that this was just temporary, and my GP wanted to see me every month for an evaluation. After four months I asked why I had to pay for a monthlt office visit. She told me that she wanted to get me off psychotropics ASAP because she didn't want them to "become a crutch."

And that's when I lost it. I told her that she would tell a a patient that that an epi pen was a crutch, nor would she tell someone at risk of a stroke that Coumadin was a crutch. So how were drugs that altered just enough brain chemistry that I wasn't depressed 24/7, was sleeping through the night, wasn't crying all the way to work every morning, and wasn't in the ER every three weeks getting a tranquilizer to calm down crutches? She left me alone after that.

And for those who maintain that few people took psychotropics in the past, that's because there few of them and the ones available had side effects that people either didn't want to live with or couldn't live with. Even the low dose of the stuff I take took me 30 days to acclimate to, and during that time I had little appetite and a case of the shakes. But my range to emotions are normal - I feel happy and sad and not just less sad and more sad all the time. I can get up in the morning without dreading going to work or facing the day. I don't cry all the way to work. I sleep through the night. And I haven't had a panic attack in three years.

[NotALoserLikeYou]

And also that's what caused me to post all the cancer links since she asked. And cancer is considered a chronic disease. And there is more of it because of obesity AND because they are living longer instead of dying.

[NotALoserLikeYou]

You're right, I found the post in question.

Just quoting this to show my reading comprehension is functioning and I saw this after I posted my response (thus I am not continuing to argue with someone who has responded I was correct about something).

[Minerva]

Just quoting this to show my reading comprehension is functioning and I saw this after I posted my response (thus I am not continuing to argue with someone who has responded I was correct about something).

Alrighty. I'll back off; we've both probably got headaches at this point.

[mockingbird]

Mockingbird said, in response to me:

To me it comes off like you are blaming people who get cancer for getting it because they weren't being "proactive" enough, and that's offensive.

Do you have anything to support your claim that cancer rates are *dramatically* decreased if you lose weight or follow a healthier diet? Curious because there have been numerous studies that prove obvious direct links between certain behaviors or risk factors and cancer (i.e. smoking, radiation [like with Chernobyl], certain occupations like coal mining) but everything I have read/heard about nutrition and exercise has been more general, like that you will improve your health overall so by default that includes generalized cancer risk, but nothing that says obesity, for example, is specifically linked to a significantly increased risk of cancer.

----

So I did try to prove I was not blaming anyone for anything just saying the whole some people/studies show/eating/ spiel. I did feel the need to defend myself because I do not go around attacking cancer patients.

Thanks for the reply, BTW. I was honestly curious about the obesity link because it's something I see all the time, but it always seems really general besides like "healthy eating is good for you so of course it will prevent cancer!!11!" or even just that obesity is "associated with" higher cancer rates, which doesn't prove causality. (My statistics professor gave the example that higher ACT scores might be associated with higher IQ scores, but that doesn't necessarily mean a higher ACT score would cause a higher IQ score. You need a different statistical test to prove causality than just common traits. But I find that news articles tend to correlate the common traits argument with "so obviously X causes Y".) So I appreciate your more specific links, some of which did go beyond the common traits argument. I have heard about endometrial cancer specifically being linked to weight gain.

I don't think you were trying to attack people who had cancer. However, continuing to repeat that certain lifestyle factors cause cancer and then (only?) SOMETIMES it's another more random cause did seem to imply some blame in the majority of cancer cases. (ETA: Not trying to rehash the point, just explain why I posted what I did.) I would also point out that I think lifestyle factors would be more of a factor in adult cancer - I would say that the vast majority of childhood cancers are more random or genetic unless it's something like Chernobyl with radiation exposure.

[kolga]

Jingerjar's horrific experience (and I truly hope you're doing better) is what I heard most often when working in mental health. While there may be primary care physicians out there handing out psychotropic medication like candy, none of those physicians were the ones my clients were seeing. There was often a huge (like, several months) wait list to see a psychiatrist for a specialty assessment, and clients were often on inadequate levels of medication for longer than was necessary.

[Lillybee]

I hope that this thread doesn't turn into anything like the peanut butter one.

[YPestis]

I hope that this thread doesn't turn into anything like the peanut butter one.

I keep hearing allusions to the infamous peanut butter thread. It almost makes me afraid to type the words into any of my post! :o :lol:

[lilith]

So, do you take every ad you see as something you must do?

I don't think that anybody is arguing that this is bad. Just that this will not prevent all illnesses. Nothing will prevent some illnesses. As well as the fact that it's a lie that all these illnesses didn't exist before modern processed food and cleaners. Actually a lot of stuff was a lot more toxic 100 years ago. (Lysol douches anybody? Lithium or cocaine in your soda?)

Yes please! To the genuine coca cola pick me up, not the douche or the lithium.

And now I'll quietly go and sensibly read the rest of the thread.

[lilith]

Lori needs to go and read some books written during her favorite era ( Victorian) to see what life was really like when people ate only natural unprocessed food, went to church obsessively and believed that infectious diseases were spread through bad air (miasmas). She would see that Queen Victoria's daughter, several of her grandchildren, and millions of others across the world died from diphtheria- a disease no longer seen in much of the world because of vaccination. She would see that Queen Victoria's son, grandsons and great grandsons die of hemophilia- a condition that it competely controllbale nowadays with replacement factor (I'd love to see Lori organically pray away a bleed). She'd see doctors who recommended that you not place your young daughter in the same bed as her uncle as she might catch gonorrhea "from the sheets". That gonorrhea, being incurable in the days before antibiotics, would likely have renedered her infertile. Tough to eat and exercise your way out of that one. Lori doesn't even need to go back in time to see all this of course. She can head to any number of poor nations where people eat a wonderfully organic diet, exercise (only way to get around is to walk) and she will see people walking for days to get to a clinic that can give them modern medicine. Lori is LUCKY she can spout this trash because she has never had to deal with having a serious illness and no access to healthcare, but instead of being grateful she points to her own wonderful example and chastizes those who are ill. She is vile.

Where Queen Victoria only came to the throne cause the Princess of Wales and her baby, with the best medical care available in Britain, died in childbirth.

Where Victoria herself taking ether in her many labours was looked at askance for not taking on the curse of Eve in its entirety.

Where most women could expect to lose at least one, probably more, infant children.

Where the "evil stepmother" stereotype rose up, not due to divorce, but due to so many women dying in childbirth and their husband remarrying quickly so he could continue to work and have a woman to care for his children. Who may lose all her babies in childbirth and infancy and fiercely resent the progeny of her predecessor.

And that's just focusing on obstetrics. The world without modern medicine was a dangerous place for everyone, but especially child bearing women and infants.

[GeoBQn]

Tiffany · 15 hours ago

I loved this post. With our first baby, we vaccinated him "like the doctor said" at 2 months. It was an AWFUL experience. He wouldn't nurse for 24 hours and was absolutely not himself. It was heartbreaking, and then and there I started researching vaccines. He didn't get any vaccines after that. And our two little girls who have followed haven't received any, either. They are SO healthy! I breastfeed for a little over a year, and we don't go a lot of places when we have a young baby anyway. I honestly think the breast milk is the best medicine/vaccine they could be receiving.

My grandma will be 100 in June and is as healthy as can be. She lives completely on her own, still sews, cooks, cleans, and takes care of herself 100%. She isn't on ANY prescription medications. The only thing wrong with her is her hearing isn't so great. She was a farm girl her whole life, and as an adult too. She was raised on farm and garden fresh foods. If you ask her what her secret is to living so long, she says that it is because she has stayed away from doctors. :)

All of that just to say -- I totally and completely agree with you! It is NOT a popular belief to have among circles of people with young children, trust me. But we stick with our intuition and we are doing what we believe is best. I don't know much about probiotics, so we will have to look into that. Thanks for the info!

Lori Alexander · 14 hours ago

I had friends whose babies suffered from immunizations. Even some who were completely healthy until after immunizations and became autistic. Vaccinations so badly mess up the friendly flora in the gut which is crucial for good health. You are one smart mommy, Tiffany!

No. No. No . . . No. And later, when another commenter gives a long list of friends and relatives who died from vaccine-preventable illnesses, Lori just says that it's "up to every parent to decide what's best."

Lori Kay · 8 hours ago

I really like your list of how to avoid the toxins and absolutely agree we should find ways to naturally support our immune systems. Our sinful nature leads us to seek instant gratification in the form of pills rather than lifestyle changes. My in-laws fall into the category of those taking handfuls of pills each day. One handful for the illnesses and a second handful to counteract the side-effects from the first handful. It is sad and frustrating because most of their problems could have been avoided or alleviated with diet changes and exercise.

So it was my "sinful nature" that lead me to take twice the recommended amount of ibuprofen in half the recommended amount of time to stop menstrual cramps that were so bad I thought sawing off my abdomen was a realistic option. What is the non-sinful thing to do, ride it out and remain in bed, completely useless? I'm sure she wouldn't be happy with what did finally work--going on the Pill.

[mg78]

Thanks for the reply, BTW. I was honestly curious about the obesity link because it's something I see all the time, but it always seems really general besides like "healthy eating is good for you so of course it will prevent cancer!!11!" or even just that obesity is "associated with" higher cancer rates, which doesn't prove causality.

.

Right now, the line of thought is that obesity is not itself a factor but high levels of insulin in blood. Cancerous cells need a lot of energy to be able to divide so fast, therefore they need incorporate sugar into the cells and for that they need insulin. If there is more insulin because you are or are becoming insulin resistant which can happen in obesity, cancerous cells have more energy to divide and survive. Now, this is not the case for all cancer types because some of them are insulin independent and they do not need insulin in blood.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22223789 and http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22223787. Not sure if this are open access, but they are from Science magazine and they should be easily found in any university or library.

[Conuly]

I hope that this thread doesn't turn into anything like the peanut butter one.

You know, peanut butter causes cancer. Trufax, guys.

[NotALoserLikeYou]

Not only that, but vaccines cause peanut butter allergies. In my day no one was allergic to peanut butter. Now all this modern "medicine" and "science" is ruining our bodies natural ability to eat certain foods.

[Minerva]

Tiffany · 15 hours ago

I loved this post. With our first baby, we vaccinated him "like the doctor said" at 2 months. It was an AWFUL experience. He wouldn't nurse for 24 hours and was absolutely not himself. It was heartbreaking, and then and there I started researching vaccines. He didn't get any vaccines after that. And our two little girls who have followed haven't received any, either. They are SO healthy! I breastfeed for a little over a year, and we don't go a lot of places when we have a young baby anyway. I honestly think the breast milk is the best medicine/vaccine they could be receiving.

My grandma will be 100 in June and is as healthy as can be. She lives completely on her own, still sews, cooks, cleans, and takes care of herself 100%. She isn't on ANY prescription medications. The only thing wrong with her is her hearing isn't so great. She was a farm girl her whole life, and as an adult too. She was raised on farm and garden fresh foods. If you ask her what her secret is to living so long, she says that it is because she has stayed away from doctors.

All of that just to say -- I totally and completely agree with you! It is NOT a popular belief to have among circles of people with young children, trust me. But we stick with our intuition and we are doing what we believe is best. I don't know much about probiotics, so we will have to look into that. Thanks for the info!

Lori Alexander · 14 hours ago

I had friends whose babies suffered from immunizations. Even some who were completely healthy until after immunizations and became autistic. Vaccinations so badly mess up the friendly flora in the gut which is crucial for good health. You are one smart mommy, Tiffany!

(Taken from [link=http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=1156]this[/link] PHD comic)

[AuntCloud]

Having a kvetchy baby for 24 hours vs. exposing said baby to life-threatening illness and a very real risk of permanent disability.

Of course this makes sense. As much as never ever cleaning your house because a drop of bleach might stain your clothes.

[ILoveJellybeans]

Im sure she would rather have a baby that is grumpy for a day than a dead baby.

That isnt even a good reason, he was ill for 24 hours, its not like he had a life threatening allergic reaction to the vaccine or anything.

[Wolfie]

And can anybody explain how "immunizations mess up the gut flora"? I'd really like to understand that one.

[Minerva]

And can anybody explain how "immunizations mess up the gut flora"? I'd really like to understand that one.

I cannot even begin to guess.