Lori Alexander: Medicine is Bad, Mmkay?

[NotALoserLikeYou]

I am not arguing against healthy eating. What I am saying is that it's not the be all, end all of what causes diseases. And for what it's worth, type II diabetes' main cause is genetic, same with high blood pressure and cholesterol. Yes, they can be made worse by lifestyle, but it isn't the cause. And if you have the genetics for them, they can still hit with a very good lifestyle. All three, plus heart disease, run in my family. We are not overweight, we are very active, we don't eat much processed stuff, but it's there. My great grandmother had all three issues (not the one who died of cancer, the heart disease killed her), and she was an active gardener, ate well, and up to the end of her life she was out playing tennis before breakfast. My mom has the blood pressure and cholesterol problems, and no matter what she did with diet or excersize (she walks 2 miles daily), she couldn't get it down without meds. I'm now dealing with borderline high bad cholesterol and low good cholesterol, as I've said before, I eat well, mostly non-procesed homemade stuff, and am very active. (I have to be, I live alone on a mini farm and work as a teacher at multiple schools) One thing my family is lucky with, is that we don't have any tendency toward obesity, but strangely, I know people who do have a genetic issue with obesity who don't have the above problems, yet eat well and are still obese.

It sounds like you're listening to both the media and types like we're talking about and not getting into the real medical research.

I cannot believe that saying (amongst other things, let me again quantify that there are genetics and bad luck) some cases of diabetes, high blood pressure, heart disease, cancer, and other diseases can be prevented or treated (based on the illness) with a healthy lifestyle that includes a healthy diet and exercise and losing weight is actually a controversial opinion.

Can anyone show me medical research where it says your diet and lifestyle have no role in these diseases?

Diabetes can be genetic. Is it genetic that the cases of type II diabetes have skyrocketed in recent years?

http://www.kmbz.com/pages/14798275.php?

Diabetes is skyrocketing in the U.S., according to a new report from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

The CDC says 18 states saw at least a doubling of diabetes diagnoses between 1995 and 2010 -- and at least a 50 percent increase in 42 states.

The largest increase in patients with diabetes was reported in the South. The states with the largest increases were Oklahoma, Kentucky, Georgia, Alabama, and Washington, according to findings published in the CDC’s Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report.

“Regionally, we saw the largest increase in diagnosed diabetes prevalence in the South, followed by the West, Midwest, and Northeast,†said Linda Geiss, with the CDC.

“This is truly an epidemic,†said ABC News senior medical contributor Dr. Jennifer Ashton.

“The CDC estimates that by the year 2050, as many as one in every three American adults will have diabetes,†Ashton said, “and largely we're talking about type two diabetes, which is directly linked to obesity.â€

“We know that obesity is linked to a multitude of cancers, increased risk factor for heart disease and stroke,†Ashton said. “This is something we have to turn around or we will be paying the price both medically and economically."

So really, as horrible a person as Lori is, is her recommendation of possibly eating better leading to better health REALLY all that out there?

[LainieR]

[Wolfie]

Can anyone show me medical research where it says your diet and lifestyle have no role in these diseases?

Diabetes can be genetic. Is it genetic that the cases of type II diabetes have skyrocketed in recent years?

http://www.kmbz.com/pages/14798275.php?

Your lifestyle and diet have impact on these diseases, but if you don't have the genetic makeup for them then you are very, very, very unlikely to get them.

And for the increase? Part of that is yet unexplained, part of it is lifestyle, yes- but a very small part, part is that in the past they didn't have an easy way to check for type I and type II, so you were diagnosed based on age, and the last part is that with more awareness, more people are being checked and the disorder discovered. Our society is always changing, and it's changed a LOT since the 50's.

So really, as horrible a person as Lori is, is her recommendation of possibly eating better leading to better health REALLY all that out there?

Nobody is saying that it isn't a good idea to eat well. What we are saying is that she's saying that if you get sick it's entirely your fault, AND that the doctors can't help you so don't go.

[MandyLaLa]

I don't even want to know what this lunatic must think of mental illness.

[Burris]

I quoted CNN, The WHO, CDC, links to many journals of medicine, congressional testimony, American Society of Interventional Pain Physicians, the Annals of Family Medicine, the British Medical Journal, the Nursing Online Education Database, The Center for Disease Dynamics, Economics and Policy (non profit), amongst others, thanks.

Uh, no you did not.

Your list of links, in full, is as follows:

*** http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9555760 – concerning adverse drug reactions, the existence of which no one was arguing. Flotsam.

*** http://www.businessinsider.com/infograp ... ted-2012-2 – concerning that 50% of Americans who take perscription drugs. I wanted more information than just a news site's stat – like, for example, whether these drugs (and the allegedly 70% of their users taking more than five at once) were related to the higher rate of activities in seniors.

*** http://www.totalhealthinstitute.com/art ... edicating – that for-profit company that offers 'holistic treatment' instead of medication, and which has a hilarious definition of what constitutes a disease.

*** http://www.asipp.org/documents/TESTIMON ... REDUCI.pdf – home of the anti-pharma super-PAC I mentioned, which is also the same group that testified before congress in the CNN article mentioned below. They, like so many of the other sites you mention, are selling courseware – this stuff, expensive – related to their particular hobby horse.

*** http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/14/health/gu ... +Health%29 – a news outlet citing ASIPP's congressional testimony regarding the over-use of medication.

*** http://www.annfammed.org/content/10/5/452/suppl/DC1 – a site added to 'prove' a point about over-medication that absolutely no one on here was arguing. (Web bingo!)

*** http://www.bmj.com/content/345/bmj.e434 ... eytype=ref – a producer of medical journals for the British Medical Association. In all fairness, I missed the source on this one – with its arguing that many new pharmaceuticals are at best useless and are being fed into the market with a profit in mind.

*** addiction-dirkh.blogspot.com/201 ... g-use.html – a personal blog with precisely one citation.

*** http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db42.htm – I already mentioned the CDC as the strongest evidence you have.

*** http://www.losethebackpain.com/blog/201 ... tatistics/ - commercial website that sells not only ointments but 'natural' drugs.

*** articles.latimes.com/2012/nov/13 ... e-20121113 – the news article that pretty much shot you in the foot regarding who is actually over-using antibiotics.

*** http://www.webmd.com/cold-and-flu/news/ ... d-bacteria – an article stating a fact upon which we both agreed, and thus just flotsam here.

*** abcnews.go.com/Health/americans- ... d=17260134 – a news site containing more flotsam about the dangers of obesity. No one is arguing that being heavy is healthy – although this war on fat catches real people in the middle and treats obesity as a character flaw and as something that occurs in a vacuum.

*** grist.org/article/americans-eat-more-processed-food-than-well-anyone/ - a majorly unapologetic political website with a stated bias against processed foods. Not a good citation.

And finally you listed women.webmd and the NPR as evidence for the effectiveness of Cranberry Juice in helping with UTIs.

Where are those other journals you claim to have listed? Because they did not appear in the article I deconstructed.

It looks to me like you just plunked in some search terms, grabbed the comments you liked regardless of how spurious the source, and tried to 'pull one over' on the readers here.

Here's an example of just how badly you failed: You cited work by Allen Roses, whom your Business Insider article described as a geneticist from Duke University. What you failed to mention is that he is also a senior executive at pharmaceutical company GlaxoSmithKline. You didn't mention that because you didn't know it. You didn't know it because you didn't look it up, just like you didn't look up whether or not the Total Health Institute is a legitimate organization.

You cited the ASIPP, and its congressional testimony, without even recognizing that the organization funds a major PAC in Washington designed specifically to push an agenda for funding alternative pain therapies at the expense of drug-based regimes.

ETA: And as for that passive-aggressive "thanks" you added at the end there, I prefer the direct approach: You, too, can go fuck yourself.

[Minerva]

No. I think what's objectionable is how she "blames the victim". Yes good diet, exercise, being informed, avoiding known toxic chemicals, not smoking all play a role in how genetics are expressed.

There's a public health saying "chronic disease can no longer be explained only as an outcome based on engaging in the ‘wrong’ health behaviours. There is a need to look beyond individual responsibility to understand the ways in which the social environment shapes the decisions we make and the behaviours we engage in.â€

No one ever changes their behaviour, even when it would improve their health, when they are blamed.

Edit twice because typing on a blackberry with a nursing baby that's waking is not a skill i have achieved.

This, and no one here has argued, even once, against eating well and taking care of yourself for better health. People are saying that there's a lot more to it than that. And other people are failing to grasp that nuance.

[NotALoserLikeYou]

The sources I quoted were all the sources IN the articles I linked.

[NotALoserLikeYou]

Pull one over, that's hilarious. I claimed Americans had chronic diseases linked to obesity and that lifestyle choices affected them. And that antibiotics are overprescribed (note: I did a whole nother post for those links which you have ignored) (and a post on obesity and cancer). And i said Americans eat crappy food. So what if I quote webmd or a paper, the CONTENT cites the science. You have attacked me pretty viciously considering the claims I've made are true. I don't see you posting anything about how studies show Americans are such thin, healthy people who eat plenty of whole foods and how we sure have cut back on the antibiotics in this country. How are disease rates are so much lower with all these drugs instead of diseases skyrocketing due to unhealthy lifestyles.

[LainieR]

The sources I quoted were all the sources IN the articles I linked.

Were they double blind RCTs? Meta-analysis? What was the quality of the study? What were the limitations? An article interpreted by someone else limits you to their (and perhaps false) interpretation.

No one's debating that chronic diseases and health conditions aren't bad and in some cases on the rise. We're just pointing out that there are no simplistic solutions ("eat less fatty") to a complex health issues that are a product of gene, environment, and the social determinants of health.

Now I'm done.

[NotALoserLikeYou]

This, and no one here has argued, even once, against eating well and taking care of yourself for better health. People are saying that there's a lot more to it than that. And other people are failing to grasp that nuance.

No, I took one part of her post to say it wasn't bad and have repeatedly mentioned genetics, luck, my own support of medicine and pharmaceuticals and have been told I am blaming people for the cancer they get. My point has been to show that prevention is important and drugs can be unnecessary and harmful and there can be alternatives. I was told to cite sources for my crazy claims that Americans are largely obese and getting unhealthier due to food/exercise choices. Had no idea it would be so controversial. The medical community is saying the same thing I am. Bad food leads to obesity leads to disease and antibiotics need to be prescribed less. Yes your Aunt Sarah ran an organic farm and died at 35. Yes your neighbors kids wash down their lunchables with strawberry milk and they are the healthiest kids you know. That doesn't change the general idea that healthy choices can prevent a state of unhealth and vice versa.

[LainieR]

So I'm going to paint my toes tonight. Quick poll OPI's ' I'm really not a waitress' or 'private jet'?

[NotALoserLikeYou]

Were they double blind RCTs? Meta-analysis? What was the quality of the study? What were the limitations? An article interpreted by someone else limits you to their (and perhaps false) interpretation.

No one's debating that chronic diseases and health conditions aren't bad and in some cases on the rise. We're just pointing out that there are no simplistic solutions ("eat less fatty") to a complex health issues that are a product of gene, environment, and the social determinants of health.

Now I'm done.

You are correct but I don't see any evidence anywhere that shows our food and weight NOT being directly linked to a lot of chronic disease. Some not all. Genetics. Environment. The devil. I get it. I never offered any solution. I suggested people making healthier choices could help and often does help their own health.

[Burris]

Pull one over, that's hilarious. I claimed Americans had chronic diseases linked to obesity and that lifestyle choices affected them. And that antibiotics are overprescribed (note: I did a whole nother post for those links which you have ignored)

I already told you - in my initial response, which you ignored - that I wasn't going to read through any more of your web bingo citations. I have only so many hours of life, and I'd sooner watch paint dry than argue with someone who a) merely affirms a point everyone else agrees with and yet still acts as if the matter is being debated, b) debates disputed points with crappy citations, and c) doesn't even read responses to those citations but instead barks out a short post claiming to have cited all these additional sources that didn't appear in the original post.

You're not arguing; you're game-playing. And fun as it is for me to waste my time here, there are just some things I'd rather avoid.

And i said Americans eat crappy food. So what if I quote webmd or a paper, the CONTENT cites the science.

You essentially posted a giant wall of text interspersed with un-imbedded links. If you really understood the content and the science, you could have boiled this shit down to something manageable, shared it in your own words, then cited the appropriate sources. All you did was regurgitate stuff, half of which was either settled or irrelevant.

You have attacked me pretty viciously considering the claims I've made are true.

You have yet to prove half the claims you've made - and the other half are undisputed by anyone here. And if you think this is vicious, then you are in for a real treat if you stick around here.

I don't see you posting anything about how studies show Americans are such thin, healthy people who eat plenty of whole foods and how we sure have cut back on the antibiotics in this country.

I never argued that Americans were, on the whole, thin, or healthy eaters. I did say, first of all, that our (North American) work habits don't help encourage diet and exercise. I did point out that, contrary to what Lori seems to believe, there's healthy food to be had at the store. And finally, you - I didn't even have to do this one - pointed out that most antibiotic overuse is by feedlot owners.

Doctors who treat people already know about antibiotic resistance. Even your shitty, half-assed search pulled up medical data showing doctors are not only aware of but actively discussing the subject.

How are disease rates are so much lower with all these drugs instead of diseases skyrocketing due to unhealthy lifestyles.

Strawman. Weak.

[NotALoserLikeYou]

So I'm going to paint my toes tonight. Quick poll OPI's ' I'm really not a waitress' or 'private jet'?

Don't you know that shit causes CANCER?

[Minerva]

2) What do you think a CHEMICAL is? What do you think acetic acid is? What is dihydrogen monoxide? (Using "chemical" is this context almost always alerts me.

Same here.

Lori's HCl is a chemical. As is her "quantum state" sea salt, full of "trace minerals" the company can't even name. She buys pure chemicals to put into her hand lotions. Her toxic black salve sure as hell is full of chemicals. Her stevia is a chemical. Her xylitol is a chemical. These aren't all bad things, but how is anyone supposed to take her seriously when half of her posts are along the lines of "Stay away from chemicals! Chemicals baaad!" and the other half are her recommending chemicals, some of which have been tested far less than the stuff she warns against?

Oh, and watch out for that dihydrogen monoxide. I hear it can kill you.

[JMarie]

So I'm going to paint my toes tonight. Quick poll OPI's ' I'm really not a waitress' or 'private jet'?

I'm not really a waitress. It's a classic.

[LainieR]

Don't you know that shit causes CANCER?

Private jet it is! I love that it looks black, but it's really a dark sparkly brown.

[LainieR]

I'm not really a waitress. It's a classic.

Oh what the heck. I'll alternate colours! No one's going to see my feet anyways!

[Wolfie]

You are correct but I don't see any evidence anywhere that shows our food and weight NOT being directly linked to a lot of chronic disease. Some not all. Genetics. Environment. The devil. I get it. I never offered any solution. I suggested people making healthier choices could help and often does help their own health.

Okay, so why did I get kidney stones when I was 5'10" and 125 lbs? Why now, at the same heights and 25 more lbs do I have hormone issues and hip joint issues (the hip joint issues started about 15 lbs ago)? I'm still in a healthy BMI.

I will tell you. It's not because of how I eat, I am a semi locavore, which means that my diet is mostly local and I have to cook it myself. The hormone issues and kidney stones run in my family, the hip joint issues have been developing since I was a baby because of the angle of my hip joints. None of these things are caused by eating a poor diet, and actually my diet is restricted in some areas to prevent more stones. None of these are because I am sedentary. And if any more people try to tell me that if I just did blah, blah, blah, they can shove it.

Yes, weight and diet can affect your health, but it isn't the only reason or even the most important reason, and I'll deal with my doctors when I do have problems simply because I want to be able to walk in 20 years, and I want to be alive in 20 years too. You keep saying the same thing over and over, and don't get that what we disagree with is that there is SO MUCH MORE to the issues than just diet, and you won't save your life by just eating how they say, for some issues it can actually make your health worse by eating a so called "healthy" diet. I'm not going to stuff myself full of high cholesterol foods, or high oxalate foods because of my genetic conditions. And actually, my cousin's soon to be ex fed him a lot of high oxalate foods and he had kidney stones a few more times than I did because of it. (now would that be abuse?)

[twin2]

Same here.

Lori's HCl is a chemical. As is her "quantum state" sea salt, full of "trace minerals" the company can't even name. She buys pure chemicals to put into her hand lotions. Her toxic black salve sure as hell is full of chemicals. Her stevia is a chemical. Her xylitol is a chemical. These aren't all bad things, but how is anyone supposed to take her seriously when half of her posts are along the lines of "Stay away from chemicals! Chemicals baaad!" and the other half are her recommending chemicals, some of which have been tested far less than the stuff she warns against?

Oh, and watch out for that dihydrogen monoxide. I hear it can kill you.

I've never understood why people think if a chemical/remedy comes from nature it's good, if it comes for a test tube/man made medicine it's bad. Nature has been coming up with ways to kill us long before pharmaceutical and chemical companies came along.

[JMarie]

Total Health Institute, eh? I wonder who they are? Let's just take a look:

Dedicated to drug-free, holistic treatment plans, the Total Health Institute aims to help clients achieve total body wellness. (Link)

And from the THI website itself:

We do not treat any symptom, condition or disease. We never have and never will. But what we do is treat the cause of all symptoms, conditions and diseases instead of treating the effects which are the actual symptoms, conditions and diseases that have manifested from imbalances in the body/mind complex.

Good grief, their "Stay At Home" program costs almost $4K, a fortune for the average fundy family. And they don't take insurance, and I'm guessing not even Samaritan Ministeries would cover the cost.

http://www.totalhealthinstitute.com/tre ... e-program/

[Wolfie]

I've never understood why people think if a chemical/remedy comes from nature it's good, if it comes for a test tube/man made medicine it's bad. Nature has been coming up with ways to kill us long before pharmaceutical and chemical companies came along.

It's like ZuZu and her apricot kernels.

Sheesh, don't eat the apricot or peach pits even if they look like an almond is one of the first things my farm raised mom taught me about fruit.

[Mommy22alyns]

Ohh, kefir and saeurkraut will cure my depression? Awesome. :roll:

[NotALoserLikeYou]

This is your first post quoting my claims asking for links:

Doctors ARE quick to hand out antibiotics, painkillers, anxiety meds, etc. Americans consume a lot of drugs. They don't consume enough real foods.

Broad brush. No links. Not surprising.

I did post links that showed, and anyone can google, that Americans take more painkillers and antidepressants than anywhere else in the world. I also did a post on antibiotics. If like half of Americans are using rxs then I guess saying they consume a lot of drugs is true. So what do you want, links showing how much sugar and fast food they eat?

Amusing note to self, every time I write sugar my phone changes it to duggar.

[NotALoserLikeYou]

Okay, so why did I get kidney stones when I was 5'10" and 125 lbs? Why now, at the same heights and 25 more lbs do I have hormone issues and hip joint issues (the hip joint issues started about 15 lbs ago)? I'm still in a healthy BMI.

I will tell you. It's not because of how I eat, I am a semi locavore, which means that my diet is mostly local and I have to cook it myself. The hormone issues and kidney stones run in my family, the hip joint issues have been developing since I was a baby because of the angle of my hip joints. None of these things are caused by eating a poor diet, and actually my diet is restricted in some areas to prevent more stones. None of these are because I am sedentary. And if any more people try to tell me that if I just did blah, blah, blah, they can shove it.

Yes, weight and diet can affect your health, but it isn't the only reason or even the most important reason, and I'll deal with my doctors when I do have problems simply because I want to be able to walk in 20 years, and I want to be alive in 20 years too. You keep saying the same thing over and over, and don't get that what we disagree with is that there is SO MUCH MORE to the issues than just diet, and you won't save your life by just eating how they say, for some issues it can actually make your health worse by eating a so called "healthy" diet. I'm not going to stuff myself full of high cholesterol foods, or high oxalate foods because of my genetic conditions. And actually, my cousin's soon to be ex fed him a lot of high oxalate foods and he had kidney stones a few more times than I did because of it. (now would that be abuse?)

Ok, I understand this. But I did say genetics/luck/environment a lot. I thought this was common sense and that I didn't have to keep adding it in whenever I mentioned the food part. I would never in a million years tell someone like you that if you specifically did such and such your body would heal itself. If anyone thinks I am like that, I am not. I just said on the whole, for most, recommendations to eat better and live healthier were good. That a drug may not be your only choice. I would never suggest anyone eat sauerkraut instead of taking their medication,