Jump to content
IGNORED

Transgender 6 year old banned from bathroom


valsa

Recommended Posts

Sounds like she only started using the girls' washroom after she'd been in school for awhile. Her classmates would have noticed that, and maybe asked why.

This whole thing must be coming from the parents of the other students. I don't see this being an issue to 6 year olds.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 282
  • Created
  • Last Reply
I've also "known" Kathryn online for several years. I very sincerely hope that this is what Coy wants, but I am doubtful that she wants all this hooplah. I suspect she'd rather just be 6. I know Kathryn and her husband will be supportive of Coy, as they are with all of their kids, but I also think Kathryn has a need to get attention via her children's struggles.

I'm sorry to say that I feel this might be true. And then I feel uncharitable for that, because all the things I know about this mother -- amazing belly pics on Shape of a Mother, Lily's brain illness (?), getting pregnant with triplets, and, IIRC, both their oldest and one of the triplets (Max?) being autistic... they're beyond her control, right? But it gets to the point where you go "that's a lot of weird things to happen to one person", and I do worry she's making a bigger deal of it than is necessary. It sounds like the school was just trying to iron out a new policy and things would have eventually gone back to normal, and while that's certainly not ideal, I'm really wary about a child's name and face being included in an article about their gender identity... you know?

I absolutely support trans kids being allowed to live out their role, but I do hope, in this case, that there are psychologists involved who have seen cases of both atypical gender presentation and actual transsexuality... because, warranted or not, I do worry that if Coy turns out to be the former, they'll feel "stuck" in the latter because their parents are so into it.

I don't know how to say all this without sounding like someone who thinks trans kids should be forced to conform and wait til they're 18 to do anything. I'm not one of those someones, for the record.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As a transgender person (Female to Male for the sake of this argument) man... do I feel for this girl.

I'm in graduate school and there are no gender neutral bathrooms on my campus. I've suffered from repetitive UTIs from a combination of not drinking enough water and trying to hold it until I'm somewhere safe to pee. And, unlike her, I have the ability to leave campus and pop until the queer coffee shop down the street to use their gender neutral bathrooms. She's at school for 8 hours a day and has nowhere reasonable to use the bathroom? It's wrong. And mean.

I've been assaulted, verbally mostly but once physically, in both male and female bathrooms. It sucks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

:roll: In one of the articles the mother states that Coy preferred the "girl" blanket at 5 months old. I can't imagine even the most hard-core fundie thinking that a 5 month old was trying to convey anything meaningful about gender identity at 5 months old based on choice of blanket color.

The bathroom issue came up because in kindergarten the children all used a uni-sex bathroom. They let Coy start 1st grade using the girls bathroom and then sent a letter saying starting in January she would need to use one of the staff restrooms or the boy's bathroom. The reason they gave is that they thought it would be more disruptive to Coy to have to switch bathrooms when she was older, and they felt there would be parent or student objections once the children got older and neared puberty. No parents, children or staff had complained about which restroom Coy would use, they stated it was to prevent problems down the road.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm sorry to say that I feel this might be true. And then I feel uncharitable for that, because all the things I know about this mother -- amazing belly pics on Shape of a Mother, Lily's brain illness (?), getting pregnant with triplets, and, IIRC, both their oldest and one of the triplets (Max?) being autistic... they're beyond her control, right? But it gets to the point where you go "that's a lot of weird things to happen to one person", and I do worry she's making a bigger deal of it than is necessary. It sounds like the school was just trying to iron out a new policy and things would have eventually gone back to normal, and while that's certainly not ideal, I'm really wary about a child's name and face being included in an article about their gender identity... you know?

I worry about being uncharitable too. I don't think anything here is made up, and I think the school is being ridiculous. Kathryn has a pretty significant web presence, and there is always some struggle going on. It's just weird and I can't really tell you why, but my radar has been blippy in regards to Kathryn for awhile before this lawsuit and the school/bathroom issue. Like I said, I just hope this attention is what Coy wants, but I did not get that vibe from the Katie show yesterday.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As a transgender person (Female to Male for the sake of this argument) man... do I feel for this girl.

I'm in graduate school and there are no gender neutral bathrooms on my campus. I've suffered from repetitive UTIs from a combination of not drinking enough water and trying to hold it until I'm somewhere safe to pee. And, unlike her, I have the ability to leave campus and pop until the queer coffee shop down the street to use their gender neutral bathrooms. She's at school for 8 hours a day and has nowhere reasonable to use the bathroom? It's wrong. And mean.

I've been assaulted, verbally mostly but once physically, in both male and female bathrooms. It sucks.

Hi CoatRack. I hope my post didn't come off as anti-gender neutral bathroom, cause I am not! So many places now have gender neutral or "family" bathrooms (like at Ikea) in addition to men's and women's rooms. This seems like a good solution for schools and colleges as well. I am really sorry that people have treated you so badly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry but I think a 6 year old is too young to make a decision like that because at that age they really don't know what they want. Sure they can say "I want to be this, I want to be that" but lots of children that age say outrageous things like they want to be an astronaut or a cowboy or a princess. That doesn't mean you let your kid go to school in a spacesuit or a princess outfit now does it? This kid is a boy and I think he should have to use the guy's bathroom. The reason we don't have boys using the girl's bathroom is not because of superficial stuff like boys having shorter hair or whatever. It's because they have male parts and most girls don't feel comfortable using the same bathroom as boys. Why should this kids rights come before theirs?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry but I think a 6 year old is too young to make a decision like that because at that age they really don't know what they want. Sure they can say "I want to be this, I want to be that" but lots of children that age say outrageous things like they want to be an astronaut or a cowboy or a princess. That doesn't mean you let your kid go to school in a spacesuit or a princess outfit now does it? This kid is a boy and I think he should have to use the guy's bathroom. The reason we don't have boys using the girl's bathroom is not because of superficial stuff like boys having shorter hair or whatever. It's because they have male parts and most girls don't feel comfortable using the same bathroom as boys. Why should this kids rights come before theirs?

What makes you say she's a boy? If she can't know her own gender, then there's no way you know it. Unless you have a crystal ball and can tell us what how she identifies 5 years from now. In which case please let us know, I'm dying to know if JK Rowling writes another book.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If I were in their shoes I'd probably do the same thing. While taking her out of school is disruptive to her routine, I'd be worried about the lawsuit making her the target of the ire of adults in the school (not only the school staff but parents she encountered in the school as well)

I have several transgendered friends, including one that was in her 50s when she made the transformation, giving up a place in a very prominent family and a high power career. Especially with the latter friend, the most recurring theme I hear is that the little boy knew he was a little girl from a VERY early age. I think homeschooling her is much less disruptive than making her use a unisex restroom. They are celebrating her gender identity and compromising that is not healthy for the child. I bet if they are supportive of the transition, they have qualified therapists at the ready to help with these decisions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What makes you say she's a boy? If she can't know her own gender, then there's no way you know it. Unless you have a crystal ball and can tell us what how she identifies 5 years from now. In which case please let us know, I'm dying to know if JK Rowling writes another book.

Because he was born a boy. :roll: What you identify with and what you are are 2 different things. He can identify as a dinosaur, doesn't make him one. Anyways that's not even the issue. I just don't think someone that young can know for sure what they want. When he gets older if he decides that's what he wants and he's able to better understand the consequences of his choice then more power to him. Even then I wouldn't go along with his little charade but I'd support his right to do what he wants with himself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have mixed feelings about this. I do think that school tried to find reasonable accommodations for Coy by allowing her to use the teachers bathroom or the nurses. But, I also think its bad to set her apart from the other students by saying she is not allowed to use the girls bathroom. Kids are cruel and will use any difference to pick on another child. I have been there before and I am still going to therapy for that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Okay and what if they let him use the girl's bathroom and one day another girl sees that he has a penis and balls? Don't you think he would get made fun of just as bad?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have several transgendered friends, including one that was in her 50s when she made the transformation, giving up a place in a very prominent family and a high power career. Especially with the latter friend, the most recurring theme I hear is that the little boy knew he was a little girl from a VERY early age. I think homeschooling her is much less disruptive than making her use a unisex restroom. They are celebrating her gender identity and compromising that is not healthy for the child. I bet if they are supportive of the transition, they have qualified therapists at the ready to help with these decisions.

The family apparently pulled ALL the kids from school to homeschool them based on the bathroom lawsuit. On the one hand that could show a great deal of family loyalty, or concern about the siblings being harassed due to the media attention - but it seems to me that pulling Coy out of school, and pulling her siblings out of school is just going to make all the kids feel horrible ( assuming they were enjoying school before, and it appears that they were ). I think the mom is coming across as being more concerned about making a statement than about actually putting her child's interests first. I'm sure the lawsuit could have been done without all of the media focus on Coy.

I could see if she was already being harassed or bullied at school than promoting the case in the media and homeschooling could help. But all she seems to be doing is removing all her children from a mostly positive social experience in order to get more publicity.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Okay and what if they let him use the girl's bathroom and one day another girl sees that he has a penis and balls? Don't you think he would get made fun of just as bad?

Girls bathrooms have stalls because the girls pee sitting down. Transgender girls do the exact same thing. I dont see it being a problem due to the privacy provided in girls bathrooms as opposed to boys bathrooms.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I haven't read anything that said they assumed gender identity issues because Coy liked girl's clothes and toys. Coy self-identified as a girl from a young age (as many transgender children do) and her parents supported her in whatever gender she felt she was. Some kids go through a phase of wanting to be the opposite gender but that doesn't appear to be the case here.

I don't buy the idea that a 6 year old can truly "self-identify" as one gender or the other. One of my kids claimed she was a dog for the first four years of her life; she would literally and convincingly bark when someone rang the doorbell. If she'd called herself a boy for another two years I would have paid no never mind one way or the other. It's not a question of "waiting it out"; it’s simply that I don't see much of a real distinction between girls and boys in the first place. Kids should be allowed to play and dream being whatever gender they choose. And then be able to change their mind next Wednesday.

Let the child use whatever bathroom she feels most comfortable using. But as a society I think we put far too much emphasis on gender identity, and I hope that the parents here aren’t pushing their very young child too far in a particular direction.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry but I think a 6 year old is too young to make a decision like that because at that age they really don't know what they want. Sure they can say "I want to be this, I want to be that" but lots of children that age say outrageous things like they want to be an astronaut or a cowboy or a princess. That doesn't mean you let your kid go to school in a spacesuit or a princess outfit now does it? This kid is a boy and I think he should have to use the guy's bathroom. The reason we don't have boys using the girl's bathroom is not because of superficial stuff like boys having shorter hair or whatever. It's because they have male parts and most girls don't feel comfortable using the same bathroom as boys. Why should this kids rights come before theirs?

My daughter shares a bathroom with her brothers, and even showers and bathes with them. It truly isn't an issue.

As to kids noticing differences at school - I don't know what kind of school you went to, but I never saw any genitals in the female toilets at school - people went into stalls and shut the doors before removing clothing. As we got older some of the shyer girls went into stalls to get changed into sports clothes etc too. There is no reason for anyone at school to ever see this child's genitals.

I actually agree that six year olds experiment with different roles and identities and that Coy may not end up identifying as female for the rest if her life. It doesn't matter. At this moment it is how she identifies and it's important enough to her for her to verbalise it and go against societies expectations of her, which in itself is difficult for a child. It should be respected and facilitated - doing so hurts noone, and to not do so could hurt her terribly. If later in her life she feels that her identity is male, that can and should be facilitated too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My daughter shares a bathroom with her brothers, and even showers and bathes with them. It truly isn't an issue.

As to kids noticing differences at school - I don't know what kind of school you went to, but I never saw any genitals in the female toilets at school - people went into stalls and shut the doors before removing clothing. As we got older some of the shyer girls went into stalls to get changed into sports clothes etc too. There is no reason for anyone at school to ever see this child's genitals.

I actually agree that six year olds experiment with different roles and identities and that Coy may not end up identifying as female for the rest if her life. It doesn't matter. At this moment it is how she identifies and it's important enough to her for her to verbalise it and go against societies expectations of her, which in itself is difficult for a child. It should be respected and facilitated - doing so hurts noone, and to not do so could hurt her terribly. If later in her life she feels that her identity is male, that can and should be facilitated too.

She has a few years to go before the family has to start considering medication to repress puberty among other things. The only way to get those meds is to go through an extensive psyc evaluation. For the moment, let her be who she wants to be.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Exactly - even if it turns out she's not "really" a girl (I have a friend whose child ID'd as female when young, male from about 8-12, and female again as a teen, and when she asked for advice on how to handle it a bunch of people we knew had personal stories of those same kind of phases. Some of them turned out to be trans, somde didn't) - there's no reason for the school or other kids to be shitty about it.

And a child exposing their genitals to other students, even in a same-gender group, would be pretty inappropriate in any early elementary setting. ESPECIALLY in a girls bathroom. I mean, some of the boys do it because they think it's funny, but they think it's funny because it IS inappropriate, and a kid who was exposing themselves repeatedly would be considered pretty concerning - I know when one of the kids at my son's school was being sexually inappropriate to other students in 1st grade they eventually investigated if he was being sexually abused.

Lastly, the 5 month old thing - one thing that's pretty common is to go looking after the fact for identity clues, stuff that would be forgotten or not considered significant if it didn't match your eventually-known identity, gets retold as part of the story of who you are. It seems kind of dumb but not unexpected for the parents of a kid who self-identifies as a trans girl to look back for "evidence" in the most gender-normative stuff, where if the kid self-identified as a boy they wouldn't even remember the "girly" blanket preference.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This thread makes me so sad.

Its hard for us to understand whats going on. Its hard to know unless you have been through it. I am sorry its making you sad.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To me here's what it comes down to.

The child, right now, identifies as a girl. She should, therefore, be allowed to use the girls bathroom.

I freaking HATE the "well, my child spent [time period] identifying as a [dinosaur/cat/fork] therefore trans children aren't real."

I spent my fair share of time as a child pretending to be an astronaut, a dinosaur, a World Famous Chef, and a gymnast. The thing is that I was always pretending to be a boy astronaut, a boy dinosaur, a boy chef, a boy gymnast. Since I was gendered female at birth this was, y'know, Not To Be Expected.

Seriously what is it, exactly, you think little girls are doing in school bathrooms? I can honestly say that the only time I ever, ever saw genitalia in a women's room is when I was doing absurdly inappropriate things in college with my girlfriend at an Indigo Girls concert.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To me here's what it comes down to.

The child, right now, identifies as a girl. She should, therefore, be allowed to use the girls bathroom.

I freaking HATE the "well, my child spent [time period] identifying as a [dinosaur/cat/fork] therefore trans children aren't real."

I spent my fair share of time as a child pretending to be an astronaut, a dinosaur, a World Famous Chef, and a gymnast. The thing is that I was always pretending to be a boy astronaut, a boy dinosaur, a boy chef, a boy gymnast. Since I was gendered female at birth this was, y'know, Not To Be Expected.

Seriously what is it, exactly, you think little girls are doing in school bathrooms? I can honestly say that the only time I ever, ever saw genitalia in a women's room is when I was doing absurdly inappropriate things in college with my girlfriend at an Indigo Girls concert.

Exactly. Let's not derail and act like regular childhood identity games are the real problem here.

Bolding mine.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To me here's what it comes down to.

The child, right now, identifies as a girl. She should, therefore, be allowed to use the girls bathroom.

I freaking HATE the "well, my child spent [time period] identifying as a [dinosaur/cat/fork] therefore trans children aren't real."

I spent my fair share of time as a child pretending to be an astronaut, a dinosaur, a World Famous Chef, and a gymnast. The thing is that I was always pretending to be a boy astronaut, a boy dinosaur, a boy chef, a boy gymnast. Since I was gendered female at birth this was, y'know, Not To Be Expected.

Seriously what is it, exactly, you think little girls are doing in school bathrooms? I can honestly say that the only time I ever, ever saw genitalia in a women's room is when I was doing absurdly inappropriate things in college with my girlfriend at an Indigo Girls concert.

I honestly think little girls go to the bathroom for the same reason little boys do. Nothing else. I do think that this girl would be safer in a girls bathroom then a boys bathroom. The stalls in girls bathrooms are there to protect their privacy. It would also protect Coy's privacy.

I do think that the school tried to come up with some reasonable accommodation. It may not have been enough but they tried. I know schools that wont even try to come up with an accommodation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Because he was born a boy. :roll: What you identify with and what you are are 2 different things. He can identify as a dinosaur, doesn't make him one. Anyways that's not even the issue. I just don't think someone that young can know for sure what they want. When he gets older if he decides that's what he wants and he's able to better understand the consequences of his choice then more power to him. Even then I wouldn't go along with his little charade but I'd support his right to do what he wants with himself.

You think trans people's genders are charades? That's just...ok...I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you don't realize how hurtful that is.

Sex and gender are not the same thing. There's an expression that goes "sex is between your legs, gender is between your ears". It's a gross oversimplification (for one thing, there are several factors other than external genitalia that play into sex), but it gets the point across. Your gender is what you identify as, regardless of your sex. Parents usually assign their child a gender at birth based on that child's genitalia. Most people's genders end up lining up with their assigned gender - these people are called cisgender. Some people end up realizing that their gender is not the same as their assigned gender - they are called transgender. A cisgender person could go their whole life never realizing that there's a distinction between sex and gender. After all, our genders match what we were assigned based on our sex, and if that's the case for everyone we've ever met, why wouldn't we assume that they're one and the same? However, this "matching" of sex and gender is not universal, as indicated by the existence of trans people, who often brave great danger in order to live their real gender, and can experience great distress from being in a body that feels wrong. Respecting trans people involves trusting them to know their own gender, referring to them using their preferred pronouns, and calling them their preferred name. You can think someone is too young to know their gender with certainty, and still respect what they identify as at the moment.

Of course, agreeing with all of this requires that you believe the trans community when they say that their genders don't line up with what they were assigned at birth. Kind of like how straight people ought to believe LGBQ folks about their sexualities, even though it may be easier to think "I'm only attracted to the opposite sex, so they must be making it up". And kind of like how neurotypical people ought to believe the segment of the population that has depression, even though it may be easier to think "There's no reason I'd stay in bed all day besides laziness, so why would it be different for anyone else?"

If you believe that kids shouldn't use the same bathroom as people who have different genitalia than theirs, how do you propose intersex children be treated?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To me here's what it comes down to.

The child, right now, identifies as a girl. She should, therefore, be allowed to use the girls bathroom.

I freaking HATE the "well, my child spent [time period] identifying as a [dinosaur/cat/fork] therefore trans children aren't real."

I spent my fair share of time as a child pretending to be an astronaut, a dinosaur, a World Famous Chef, and a gymnast. The thing is that I was always pretending to be a boy astronaut, a boy dinosaur, a boy chef, a boy gymnast. Since I was gendered female at birth this was, y'know, Not To Be Expected.

Seriously what is it, exactly, you think little girls are doing in school bathrooms? I can honestly say that the only time I ever, ever saw genitalia in a women's room is when I was doing absurdly inappropriate things in college with my girlfriend at an Indigo Girls concert.

Of course trans children are real. We know this because trans people are real. I don't think anyone is saying otherwise. But how exactly does one go about identifying a very young child as one? Is "I'm a girl" or "I want to be a boy" really sufficient for you? At 6??

I suspect it's far more common for individuals to not strongly identify with one gender or the other, especially at a time when they are still just beginning to figure out who they are. And absent strong parental and societal influence, a fair percentage of 6 year olds would probably be neutral on the issue. And so with a child this young, how can anyone really know whether someone is being pushed by the parents?

As for you always pretending to be a boy character, what about the girl who sometimes pretends to be boy astronaut and other times a girl gymnast? Where would you pigeon-hole her? And more importantly, why would you pigeon-hole her?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.




×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.