It's 2013, not 1913

[LeopardLady]

The whole concept of drow honestly troubles me a bit to begin with, at least with how it's been presented in D&D mythos. Evil dark underground spider worshiping dark elves that are evil and dark and icky! Nothing at all like those good light elves from the surface. :|

That I agree with. In most campaigns I have played, drow society has been altered significantly from source material and I actually have a fairly positive view of drow in general.

edited to fix quotes

[Savoring Samsara]

That I agree with. In most campaigns I have played, drow society has been altered significantly from source material and I actually have a fairly positive view of drow in general.

Potentially off-topic and certainly nerdy: You're aware of the, er, interesting Redeemed Drow epic destiny from D&D 4e, yes? I like to think that the implication of "shake off your ultimate evil by being reborn as a white guy" was not intentional, but...yowza.

alexandraerin.livejournal.com/137593.html

[frumper-rump]

I grew up with this sort of rubbish, and no one ever thought twice about it. Here's what I learned: White people are the default. You can't be pretty/handsome, unless you're white. Other races are a bunch of assorted stereotypes. And possibly fun to make fun of.

It was fun, growing up bi-racial. :evil:

On that same note, I (way to often) hear "she's pretty...for a black girl". This makes me so angry! I am a quiet person who is not very outspoken, but that is one of the things I have to say something about when I hear someone say it.

[samurai_sarah]

So what if a black girl want to be for example marilyn monroe in halloween, she will have to use a blonde wig, and wear make up to look like her..thats the point of using a costume to look different as you are every day, not better or worse, but different. You will see it racist?

And i dont see racist at all dressing like a chinese woman or a geisha, i dressed like that in carnival when i was a child, and it was a beautifull costume(maybe the difference is that hallowen is more for dress like monsters or scary things and our carnival have a different concept). But i dont see it racist at all, its the same as dressing in a flamenco dress and being a sevillana in carnival.

And the ones that sell the chinese costumes in their shops are the chineses so, i dont think they found it offensive either.

I was thinking about this tv show we have where famous people imitate famous singers of all time, so men have to dress like women, women like men, and somethimes they have to paint black to look like some singers. Nobody complain about it, and nobody thinks that its racist.

But when carnival is over, the colour doesn't wash off my skin. And the stereotypes don't disappear alongside the hangover. Stereotypes that dressing up and painting your face, help perpetuate, and keep alive. I don't get to take off my "beautiful costume" and return to being "normal", when the party's over.

It's a bit like being a woman in a patriarchal society. Take carnival as an example - cross-dressing men are funny during that time, right? But they get to go home and take off their costume. They don't have to deal with the everyday stereotypes and sexism, because they're in a privileged situation.

[B5SnowDog]

The whole concept of drow honestly troubles me a bit to begin with, at least with how it's been presented in D&D mythos. Evil dark underground spider worshiping dark elves that are evil and dark and icky! Nothing at all like those good light elves from the surface. :|

I would love to watch a Drizzt Do'Urden movie but I can't see it happening without making some changes to the description of drow.

[Savoring Samsara]

I would love to watch a Drizzt Do'Urden movie but I can't see it happening without making some changes to the description of drow.

Indeed. And can I also say that I am pleasantly surprised by the number of people on FJ who know what drow are and can talk intelligently about them. :lol:

[jenny_islander]

The major issue in the U.S. is that for generations, being black was the punchline. Joke shops used to sell little toys that showed a flipbook-style sequence of black people kissing when spun. It was funny because they were black! White men used to make themselves up with burnt cork as raggedy black men and cavort on stage singing sentimental or comedic songs in a bad imitation of African American dialect. Look, white men acting like black men! So funny. One of the songs they sang--the song that you might call the first national hit pop song, which launched Stephen Foster's career--was "Oh Susannah." You may have learned it in school as a delightful bit of nonsense. This is the version I learned as a child:

I come from Alabama, my banjo on my knee;

I'm goin' to Lou'siana, my true love for to see.

It rained so hard the day I left, the weather was bone dry,

With the sun so hot I froze to death--Susannah, don't you cry!

Oh, Susannah, oh don't you cry for me;

For I come from Alabama with my banjo on my knee.

Late last night when I awoke and ev'rything was still,

I thought I saw Susannah a-comin' 'round the hill.

A buckwheat cake was in her mouth, a tear was in her eye;

Says I, I'm comin' from the South--Susannah, don't you cry!

Oh, Susannah, oh don't you cry for me;

For I come from Alabama with my banjo on my knee.

And here are the other two verses, which are rarely if ever sung, with the fake dialect left in:

I jumped aboard de telegraph and trabbled down de ribber,

De 'lectric fluid magnified and killed five hundred nigger.

De bull-gine ["bull engine," slang for a steam engine] bust, de horse run off, I really thought I'd die;

I shut my eyes to hold my breath, Susannah, don't you cry.

Oh, Susannah, oh don't you cry for me;

For I come from Alabama with my banjo on my knee.

I soon will be in New Orleans, and then I'll look around

And when I find Susannah, I will fall upon de ground.

And if I do not find her, dis darkie'll surely die,

And when I'm dead and buried, Susannah, don't you cry.

Oh, Susannah, oh don't you cry for me;

For I come from Alabama with my banjo on my knee.

"Killed five hundred nigger!" So funny!

Being black was the punchline. Blacks were stupid, blacks were disposable stage props, blacks were lazy, silly, timid, clueless, charmingly inept. Also note--why would a black man in Alabama be traveling to Louisiana to see his true love? Because she had been sold.

Blackface is an assertion that whites get to be on top. So if you're in the U.S., you do not use it.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Don't forget the original words to "eeny meeny miney moe" either. It wasn't a tiger they were catching.

[duplessis3]

Yesterday was the anniversary of the American Indian Movement's takeover of Alcatraz. I read a very brief article about it and at the end it sa i d a Cree and a Lakota Sioux were killed by yhe FBI. No names. And that is why blackface etc is wrong. It is reducing a full complex human being to one thing - their racd (or gender or religion or sexual orientation) and it gets people like Trayvon Martin, Mathew Shepherd, etc killed.

[Arete]

Personally, I think blackface is offensive regardless of which national passport you hold. And Spanish fans have been found making monkey sounds at the black players of other European football teams more than once. Obviously there are issues around race there.

[Vex]

Diana, I come from a country where we don't have a history of blackface either.

I think the main point to take away is that even if we don't have the same context of African slavery and the civil rights movement within our own countries, we need to understand as human beings (rather than as a citizen of Spain or Australia) that when a person paints their skin and wears accessories that suggest a racial stereotype, it is going to offend some people and it's best to not do it. I'm sure there are plenty of gorgeous costumes that can be worn that don't require painting yourself to look like you're of a different racial background.

Even if it's not done with malice or with any intention to offend, it's just not a good idea. White privilege exists just about everywhere, even if minstrel shows didn't. In that way it transcends American culture.

[Full enough quiver]

Definitely. I think for white people, our job is to listen and take our cue from people of color when it comes to race. Just because we may not find something offensive, doesn't mean it isn't. Even in today's world, there is a tremendous amount of privilege that comes with whiteness. This doesn't mean we should apologize or be ashamed of being white, just be aware of the privileges we tend to take for granted.

[OkToBeTakei]

Personally, I think blackface is offensive regardless of which national passport you hold. And Spanish fans have been found making monkey sounds at the black players of other European football teams more than once. Obviously there are issues around race there.

I sincerely doubt that Diana was trying to claim that her whole country is free of racism. She was discussing a particular cultural aspect of how carnival is perceived. Football in any European country would not be a good example of racist or bigoted behaviour of a whole nation. I certainly do not identify with the bigots and racists that attend football matches in Britain.

Diana, I come from a country where we don't have a history of blackface either.

I think the main point to take away is that even if we don't have the same context of African slavery and the civil rights movement within our own countries, we need to understand as human beings (rather than as a citizen of Spain or Australia) that when a person paints their skin and wears accessories that suggest a racial stereotype, it is going to offend some people and it's best to not do it. I'm sure there are plenty of gorgeous costumes that can be worn that don't require painting yourself to look like you're of a different racial background.

Even if it's not done with malice or with any intention to offend, it's just not a good idea. White privilege exists just about everywhere, even if minstrel shows didn't. In that way it transcends American culture.

The term 'blackface' would not be a familiar term where I live either. Every culture has it's own history which can determine what and what is not viewed as a racial stereotype or even a cultural stereotype. Because you know all Irish people are thick and stupid and all Scottish people are drunk and offensive. (Last one is probably true :))

But as Vex so eloquently put it, if it offends, it is best not to do it. It is also important I think to look outside our own cultures and see why.

[childerowland]

Personally, I think blackface is offensive regardless of which national passport you hold.

I agree.

I grew up in Belgium (I'm British) and am familiar with the tradition of Zwarte Pieten ('Black Peters'). They are the assistants of Saint Nicholas, who is the equivalent of Father Christmas/Santa Claus in certain European countries. Saint Nicholas used to come into my primary school in early December, on Saint Nicholas day, accompanied by a couple of Zwarte Pieten. The latter used to jump about on the desks, generally causing havoc, and distribute sweets. The Zwarte Pieten were always played by white people in blackface.

Whatever the origins of Zwarte Pieten, it's clear that they have become caricatures of black people. Both the people playing them and the chocolate figurines of Zwarte Pieten available in shops are made to look like the old golliwog toys, with exaggerated, stereotyped facial features - and it's not just their appearances, it's how the Zwarte Pieten behave - they are mischievous, silly, carefree, and under the authority of good old (white) Saint Nicholas, who has to tell them off. I'm shocked that the tradition is still going strong. Just because it's a tradition doesn't make it beyond reproach any more than sexist traditions are beyond reproach.

You definitely don't have to be American to find characters such as Zwart Piet jarringly racist. I can't think of any situation in which blackface would be acceptable.

[nelliebelle1197]

Personally, I think blackface is offensive regardless of which national passport you hold. And Spanish fans have been found making monkey sounds at the black players of other European football teams more than once. Obviously there are issues around race there.

Amen. Very few European nations and their former colonies have clean hands when it comes to participation in the slave trade and the oppression of the non white peoples they conquered and exploited all over the world. Americans are more aware of the implications of mocking race than other cultures but that doesn't mean it is right in Spain or Australia. My husband is half Irish and half (white) New Zealander brought up in New Zealand and he reacts negatively to black face "parody". Yet his brother who has lived in Australia 20 years with his Australian wife shock me with their casual and completely un-self-aware racism towards Sudanese refugees in their Gold Coast city and towards native Australians. Yet they are shocked by racism here. I am not criticizing anyone, just pointing out I believe in the US we have had to confront racism and work through some very different things than other countries who have not had to recover from de facto apartheid. I bet there are plenty of non white - and white -9 people in Australia and Spain who are damned offended by these type of "entertainment".

[Savoring Samsara]

I sincerely doubt that Diana was trying to claim that her whole country is free of racism. She was discussing a particular cultural aspect of how carnival is perceived. Football in any European country would not be a good example of racist or bigoted behaviour of a whole nation. I certainly do not identify with the bigots and racists that attend football matches in Britain.

This was also what I was trying to convey with my comments. There are absolutely problems with racism in Spain, the same as there are in pretty much all Western countries.

[Diana]

Personally, I think blackface is offensive regardless of which national passport you hold. And Spanish fans have been found making monkey sounds at the black players of other European football teams more than once. Obviously there are issues around race there.

Not really, i think is much more racism in usa or in other european countries than in spain, yes, there are a few racist hooligans like in any places of the world, but they are a minority that dont represents the country. And here the most common problem is the xenophobia not racism.

I think that you all are being very much demagogic , you can not understand that here painting your face in any color or dressing like a person of any culture is not ofensive, is not a joke, is not to make fun, and the only people complaining about these things in spain are the ones from usa who came here and like you have this mentality.

You think that everybody in the world should find blackface offensive, this is pretty much ethnocentric! In your country it have a bad connotation, because historic reasons, because of racism! but not in all the rest of the world, and instead of trying to impose this idea in the other countries you should think why is bad, and if is bad in itself or the wrong is the mentality that thinks bad of something that should be normal, and natural, like any other costume that you can wear.

[wtfrenchtoast]

I'm inclined to agree with Diana on this one, actually. And I'm 3/4 black. I definitely understand why Americans would be offended by blackface and I think the case with the white "African queen" is stupid and racist and offensive. But I don't think I get to say people in Spain for instance should be offended by someone dressing as Obama and painting his face. They don't have the same racial issues that exist in the US. From what Diana is saying, the Spanish people don't think it's funny or anything to dress as another race. They just want to be accurate in their costumes. If it offends me or anyone else, well okay, I'm offended. But I don't think it's my place or my right to say that an entire country needs to start being offended too. I understand where people are coming from when they say that a person in costume doesn't understand the discrimination and hardships of the group, and they just get to take off the costume when they get home. I get that and I can see where it's upsetting. I just think that some people forget that other cultures view race in different ways. I believe Diana when she says that people don't dress up as other cultures because they want to mock or think it's funny. It's just something they do, which I view as morally neutral. I see where it can quickly devolve into racist stereotypes, but I don't see the big deal with a white person donning a sari or African headdress.

[Guest Anonymous]

Diana - I would be really interested in your thoughts on this incident from a few years ago (the Hamilton's Familly incident): http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -joke.html

Is it one of the rare cases of racism? The exuberance of sports fans? I'd be really interested in your opinion about where this fits in with Spain's relationship (or lack of relationship) with blackface.

Link not broken because it's the Mail.

[Savoring Samsara]

This is an interesting discussion for sure. Diana, I don't want you to think I am imposing a mentality on you - simply trying to explain the thought process that is going on when Americans take offense at these sorts of costumes. I'm just one person, and not Spanish. I can't force you to do or believe anything - all I can do is share my opinion, and how my culture sees it. I can't impose my opinion because my opinion is pretty small compared to all of Spain. :)

The world is big and viewpoints will always vary. They can't always be reconciled with each other. I try not to be ethnocentric and I think most other people intend to do the same. But it can be really difficult when another culture's beloved tradition pushes every "this is wrong" button that your culture has. Race is a REALLY touchy issue for Americans and it's probably always going to be. I doubt we can ever all come to agreement on this matter; the best we can do is coexist. It's not a neat and clean agreement at the end, but in life, when do you ever get those?

[gardenvarietycitizen]

I guess one question is, if I wanted to dress up "as a Spanish person" what should my costume look like? If I wear a flamenco dress, properly, and say "I'm dressing up as a flamenco dancer" that's one thing. But what if I get the costume completely wrong, to the point that it's halfway a dirndl, and say "I'm dressing up as a flamenco dancer"? What if I wear that same completely wrong costume that's halfway a dirndl, and say "I'm dressing up as a Spaniard"?

What if I paint my face with thick white makeup, wear a curly hair wig, put on that same completely wrong costume that's halfway a dirndl, and say "I'm dressing up as a Spaniard"?

...and then finally, what if when someone calls me out on it pointing out that the costume is completely wrong and wtf is up with the clown makeup, I say that I'm just trying to honor Spaniards because they're so beautiful and so much more romantic than my own country? And you shouldn't be picky! It's all just Europe, geez.

...because THAT is what happens 99.9% of the time when people dress up "as Japanese" or "as Chinese" - and those are (usually, definitely not always[1]) intended to be nice costumes. Dressing up "as black" usually is very much not even intended to be flattering, there it runs to bad stereotypes of "gangsta" and criminality.

[1] then there are parties like this gem held at Duke University: http://gawker.com/5981941/outrage-at-du ... cist-rager

[skeptifem]

I heard all that "its not racist to do blackface in australia" nonsense when there was a controversy about some white dudes doing a blackface Jackson 5 show. Its bs. There was racist blackface of aboriginals from Australia.

http://www.creativespirits.info/aborigi ... trel-shows

It seems like the urge to mockingly dress up as a racial minority is something that happens repeatedly in racist societies. It is hard for me to imagine having the urge to do it if you respected people of color and what they go through.

[samurai_sarah]

Not really, i think is much more racism in usa or in other european countries than in spain, yes, there are a few racist hooligans like in any places of the world, but they are a minority that dont represents the country. And here the most common problem is the xenophobia not racism.

I think that you all are being very much demagogic , you can not understand that here painting your face in any color or dressing like a person of any culture is not ofensive, is not a joke, is not to make fun, and the only people complaining about these things in spain are the ones from usa who came here and like you have this mentality.

You think that everybody in the world should find blackface offensive, this is pretty much ethnocentric! In your country it have a bad connotation, because historic reasons, because of racism! but not in all the rest of the world, and instead of trying to impose this idea in the other countries you should think why is bad, and if is bad in itself or the wrong is the mentality that thinks bad of something that should be normal, and natural, like any other costume that you can wear.

Not everyone in this discussion is American. As I may have mentioned before, I'm German and we do a lot of racially charged things innocently too. That doesn't mean they're harmless or not hurtful.

[samurai_sarah]

I'm inclined to agree with Diana on this one, actually. And I'm 3/4 black. I definitely understand why Americans would be offended by blackface and I think the case with the white "African queen" is stupid and racist and offensive. But I don't think I get to say people in Spain for instance should be offended by someone dressing as Obama and painting his face. They don't have the same racial issues that exist in the US. From what Diana is saying, the Spanish people don't think it's funny or anything to dress as another race. They just want to be accurate in their costumes. If it offends me or anyone else, well okay, I'm offended. But I don't think it's my place or my right to say that an entire country needs to start being offended too. I understand where people are coming from when they say that a person in costume doesn't understand the discrimination and hardships of the group, and they just get to take off the costume when they get home. I get that and I can see where it's upsetting. I just think that some people forget that other cultures view race in different ways. I believe Diana when she says that people don't dress up as other cultures because they want to mock or think it's funny. It's just something they do, which I view as morally neutral. I see where it can quickly devolve into racist stereotypes, but I don't see the big deal with a white person donning a sari or African headdress.

I get where you're coming from, and understand that you're hesitant to apply your understanding to Diana. However, as one of her fellow Europeans, I have no such compunctions and she's just wrong. Whether or not there is a history of blackface/yellowface in the American sense within a culture, doesn't matter. The stereotypes that come with them do. And they're ugly.

Growing up in Germany as a biracial kid was so much fun, because every February for a couple of days, during carnival season, I got to see how my environment really saw me. It was all fun and jokes, all done innocently with no bad intent. The trouble is that it never stopped just there. Shit like that cements stereotypes, and I object because I am not a perpetually smiling, yellow Chinaman, nor am I a submissive, sexually available geisha*. Cultural relativism doesn't take the sting out of that. Racism is like sexism. Culture is no excuse for its victims.

*And anyone who knows anything about geisha, knows they're not prostitutes.

[Diana]

Diana - I would be really interested in your thoughts on this incident from a few years ago (the Hamilton's Familly incident): http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -joke.html

Is it one of the rare cases of racism? The exuberance of sports fans? I'd be really interested in your opinion about where this fits in with Spain's relationship (or lack of relationship) with blackface.

Link not broken because it's the Mail.

First of all, i have to say sorry for answering so late, but i have totally forgotten about this post. I couldnt decide to answer it or not because all this time has passed and i was thinking that you probably have forgotten it also. It was very difficult to me to write this in english, it probably have lots of mistakes, but i cant explain it better.

Yes that is racist, as i have said before the hooligans in futbol are usually racists. I didnt denied that are racist people here too, recently i have encountered some very disgusting examples of this, but i have to say that it is very rare to find an openly racist person and instead the majority of people, if you ask them, are going to say you that they dont think there is anything wrong with dress up as other races.(i discovered about blackface in the internet and because i know some english, i dont think that the people here even know or can imagine that blackface is that ofensive in usa!)

And that is because the first asociation that comes to mind here of a white person dress-up as a black is a tradition, the three magical kings, that give the children the presents in Christmas instead of santa claus, and 1 of the three is black. And since until recently there wasnt a lot of blacks in spain it was normal for the actor that played this character to have to paint to represent the king (and i have to say that Baltasar is the most favourited king by the children, also my favourite as a child!).

Nowadays there are more blacks here, so sometimes they can find real black people to play Baltasar, but since it is such and honour is usually famous people (like actors or singers or the mayor of the city) that dress up as the kings, so it is still necesary to paint them. If it have a negative connotation surely the famous people wouldnt want to associate themselves with it!

I think that if you ask any spaniard about blackface they are going to think about this tradition and dont think anything wrong with it, obviously if the intention it is to mock or hurt someone like in this link then i think it is wrong, but if the intention it is just to be in character, them i dont think there is nothing wrong with it. You cant forbid a thing just because some people use it the wrong way.