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It's 2013, not 1913


Anxious Girl

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Spain has as much history with racism as every other European country or the US. That racism is accepted doesn't mean Spain is less racist; it means Spain is so racist that people don't even challenge the racist things they do. There was a time when blackface and other racist things were generally accepted in the United States. Eventually we progressed to at least most people realizing that those things are actually racist.

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I somehow missed this thread the first time around.

I don't know how much I can add to the intelligent things that have been said about the bizarre history of blackface in the US, but I do have the old-movie-buff perspective.

It wasn't just making one's face a bit darker -- it was something so mind-boggling, so filthy, to someone like me (born in the 1950s), and probably everyone on FJ, that it is hard to describe. And, as far as I know, it was accepted by most white people. It was also common -- ubiquitous at some points.

There was a fairly rigid set of images that went along with it - it was not just putting on makeup to look like a particular person. The costumes, the extremely exaggerated lips and eyes, the speech and behavior exaggerations were . . . well, it's easier to show than describe.

It may offend -- hell, it should offend -- but the best way to get it is to see it. Every actor and singer you see is white (I put the youtubes under a spoiler, so people don't need to see the images unless they want to):

Y--afZEdhEA

-_swtbIi2F0

Notice that all of the visual and verbal jokes are based on flashy dressing (or being in rags), gambling, drinking, violence, and being stupid, lazy, dark, and/or oversexed.

Al Jolson, making the stereotype a bit more sympathetic, singing expressively and basically dressed normally, and not doing minstrel show jokes, but still using an exaggerated accent and making "ain't I simple" faces (it's more obvious in still photos):

PIaj7FNHnjQ

This was a glamorous-Hollywood version of the stereotype, very cleaned-up, from one of the let's-put-on-a-show movies with Mickey Rooney and Judy Garland (I couldn't find the whole number, but this is the end):

qmEemOfsxhs

Notice that the women we are supposed to like and still find attractive (Garland, Virginia Weidler and the other soloist, whose name I don't know) are lighter -- "high yaller (yellow)." This was the big finale, so we couldn't have our last look at these nice young people be in blackface, hence the impossible-on-a-real-stage ending in glamorous clothes and back to looking white.

The lyrics of the song are:

Way down on the levee in old Alabamy,

there's Daddy and Mammy, there's Ephraim and Sammy.

On a moonlight night you can find them all.

While they are waitin', the banjos are syncopatin'

Oh, what's that they're sayin'?

Oh, what's that they're sayin'?

While they keep playin', and hummin' and swayin',

it's the good ship Robert E. Lee that's here to carry the cotton away.

Ah-ha-ha, watch them shufflin' along, see them shufflin' along!

Go take your best gal, your real pal, go down on the levee,

I said to the levee, and we'll join that shufflin' throng.

Hear that music and song.

It's simply great, mate,

waitin' on the levee,

waitin' for the Robert E. Lee!

Swayin' and shufflin' references are mandatory, you know, while happily waiting for a boat named after the general of the Confederacy to take away cotton you slaved to pick. Oh, and notice that songwriters were under the impression that AA people couldn't pronounce Alabama. Big fun. :evil:

This one is interesting -- from everything I've read about it, Fred Astaire wanted to do a genuine tribute to Bill Robinson, as well as the gimmick of dancing with his own "shadow." His makeup is not the traditional exaggerated blackface.

But the trappings are still there, in glamorized fashion -- the chorus is in a modified version of the minstrel costume (their faces are left alone, as far as I can see), the idiotic black-face-becomes-enormous-shoes thing, and the flashy outfit on Fred:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5vynk ... ZECycrYFzc

There was a real tradition of just throwing a "minstrel show" into things, if one didn't have a better idea for entertainment. It's sort of the musical or comedy act version of resorting to insult humor because one is not actually very good at constructing a joke -- it has a set formula, easy for non-creative people to follow. It only worked if the audience accepted that AA people were slow, criminal, and/or jolly all the time.

And getting some people to recognize how awful it was got to be like pulling teeth. Some still don't get it, and, as others have pointed out, it still goes on in some forms.

So, even in 2013, I think it's appropriate for folks in the US to still say "don't go there, don't go anywhere near there, don't even think about it." I'm not a big fan of censorship, but it would be so easy to slip back into that crap and have it accepted again.

I can't speak for what goes on in other countries, but I hope this thread gave some perspective to non-US folks who were not already aware of the scope of it, about how monumentally disgusting, and how common, it was, and why those of us who try not to be bigots are so put off by any hint of it.

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I dont know why you just whant to undestand my words, maybe i dont express myself clearly, i dont want to repeat the same again,

as i said i think that there is racism in spain specially against the gypsies and in the last years also southamericans, but i dont think that there is a lot of racism against blacks, since i live here i think my opinion count more than yours.

And i really believe that dressing up as other races is not racist in itself, it is just racist if you intent to make fun of them.

if baltasar is a african king and he is represented as black, why cant the people paint themselves as black to dress up as this character that i say is like santa claus? didnt the people in america that play santa claus put fake beards and fake tummys? just old people with white beards can play santa?

i dont think that it will be correct to whitewashe this tradition that comes from medieval ages, because some implications of blackface in other country.

A White Baltasar! it will be absurd and truly racist.

Also i have to say that i think that you americans are more racist than spanish if you see that a person can not want to dress up as a person of other races for positive reasons.

Also please stop arguing with me, i answered this person because he or she have waited a lot of time because i forget about this post, but i was writing lots of time and have to use the google translator its dificult to me, i dont have the level of english to win any argument abut any topic, even if i have the right, so i go to left it here.

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Diana, I like you, and I think you expressed yourself very clearly in English - it is just that I don't think this is going to be a topic where most FJers end up agreeing with you. In the end, in matters of race in the US, actions matter more than intent. Although I believe you when you say that the practice of portraying Baltasar in blackface does not come from a desire to make fun of black people, the action itself still has a racist and disrespectful connotation to many people.

If I were you I would let this topic go. I don't think anyone is going to change anyone else's mind here.

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Dressing up as a specific person of another race (example: Obama, Chairman Mao) is one thing. If you do ANY sort of face painting, though, in the modern United States it's just too close to caricature blackface (or yellowface, same idea) to escape criticism, you WILL offend people and it's just plain not worth it. Very occasionally a serious media outlet will make it work, but there will be discussion about boundaries and whether or not face paint is used, wigs, etc (Fred Armisen as Obama comes to mind). Average people for a costume? Don't go there.

You can find all kinds of posts from parents on the net, their kids have (IMHO rather clueless) teachers who have assigned them to dress up as figures from history (why is this sort of assignment needed??) and they're wondering what to do about "the face painting question" and pretty unanimously the answer is NO, don't do it. Regardless of your intent you WILL offend people. Similarly the advice for teachers is, stop with those assignments, let the kids make presentations and drawings only but don't require costumes. The US just has too sensitive a history with blackface to make it work.

Problem is, it's not just history either. There are STILL, TODAY in 2013, people who think it's okay to dress up as a caricature of an entire race for Halloween - they dress up as "Chinamen" or "geisha[1]" or "hos" or worse yet they hold "ghetto" parties where people put on blackface and wear stereotypical clothing to dress up as "rappers and hos" (I kid you not) or have "illegal alien" parties, similarly offensive costumes dressing up as stereotypes of Mexicans, often pretending to be pregnant. People doing this put pictures of the event all over the internet even, with no shame, and then wonder why people are angry when they see the photos... these are college kids, supposedly the best and brightest.

I suspect if someone sees the "Swarte Piet" things in context they'll realize it's different, but that instant gut reaction would probably be there, for an American, and if you're IN the US doing it, yeah, better expect some reaction.

[1] Yes, it's an occupation, but 99.9999% of people who dress up as it just thinking "oh, sexy Japanese woman" and then get the entire thing completely wrong and offensive, so...

I thought I was pretty jaded, and had seen it all pretty much, but DAMN I'm so glad I missed out on that ignorant mess. That's just foul. I will confess to being mesmerized by Memoirs of a Geisha and wanting to have my very own kimono , but alas, I couldn't afford one. Good God, they're expensive! I knew better than to try out the makeup because with my features I would have looked just odd. I settled for slightly winged eyeliner and a red lip with a kimono knockoff I got online. I never would have dreamed I was being offensive to anyone. I'm shamed to say that I did take pictures because I loved the look and was fascinated by the women who authentically wore it.

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You know what Diana, I understand you fine. You're saying a racist thing isn't actually racist in your culture. And I'm saying that it is actually racist, even if your culture doesn't recognize it yet. You're too entrenched in it to recognize it, but that doesn't mean it's not racist.

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You know what Diana, I understand you fine. You're saying a racist thing isn't actually racist in your culture. And I'm saying that it is actually racist, even if your culture doesn't recognize it yet. You're too entrenched in it to recognize it, but that doesn't mean it's not racist.

Exactly. Stuff like this gets me so fired up.

Look Diana, I don't think you are racist, and I am not saying every person in Spain is a racist. But to not be able to look past your own experiences and think outside the box is troubling. Is dressing up as Obama in and of itself racist? Probably not. But the problem is that it rarely stops there - when a white person (or person of any race, really) dresses up as someone from a different race or cultural background, it is commonly done to an incredibly stereotypical degree. So even without the history of blackface in the US, that should be offensive to everyone. If you dress up as a Mexican with a sombrero, a mustache, carry a chihuahua and talk about burritos, that shit is offensive. And I have yet to see a cultural tradition involving blackface that is NOT racist and sterotypical to some extent.

There are still plenty of people in the US that are racist. Plenty of people that think blackface is funny. But as a whole, we have decided that we do not accept that anymore. That reducing any person or culture to sterotypes in order to ridicule them is never OK. No matter if it is a "tradition" or not. I don't care if something has been around for 10000000000 years, if it is horribly offensive, it needs to go.

And something tells me that minorities in Spain and not treated with sunshine and rainbows all the time. That is not to say that Spain is less than the US - we have those issues too. But the thing is, you have to realize those issues exist before they can be addresed. The US has a very charged history with regards to race, for sure. But so do most European countries, even if it is not as talked about as our history is here. Spain was certainly no goody-twoshoes during the slave trade, and was a colonial power in many areas. So I think some deep thinking needs to occur here to really examine what you think you know. Just because people aren't walking down the street calling black people the N word, does not been that racism does not exist. Racism comes in many forms, and overt racism is just one of them.

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Also please stop arguing with me, i answered this person because he or she have waited a lot of time because i forget about this post, but i was writing lots of time and have to use the google translator its dificult to me, i dont have the level of english to win any argument abut any topic, even if i have the right, so i go to left it here.

I don't know if this was addressed to me, but, just in case -- Diana, I wasn't answering you in particular, just adding my perspective on how bad the "blackface" tradition was to the general conversation. As I said, I hadn't seen the thread when it first came around.

In fact, after I posted and it was too late to edit, it occurred to me that I probably should have included Americans under the age of 30 in the people who might not have realized the whole scope of it.

The "blackface" tradition in US entertainment was something so bizarre and offensive, it really was mind-boggling, and I was just trying to convey that, to any and all who might be reading.

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I don't know if this was addressed to me, but, just in case -- Diana, I wasn't answering you in particular, just adding my perspective on how bad the "blackface" tradition was to the general conversation. As I said, I hadn't seen the thread when it first came around.

In fact, after I posted and it was too late to edit, it occurred to me that I probably should have included Americans under the age of 30 in the people who might not have realized the whole scope of it.

The "blackface" tradition in US entertainment was something so bizarre and offensive, it really was mind-boggling, and I was just trying to convey that, to any and all who might be reading.

no i was talking to the person that linked a link to me directly.

its sad that in the usa the people can not even dress as obama without other people thinking that they want to make fun of the president, and no because they admire him. i hope one day its posible.

And you know saying than if some culture dont think the same as you they are less evolutioned...that is true racism.

i mean as i said i understand why it is racist in the usa, and respect that, but in other countries that not have that tradition of use of black face as comedy it dont make sense to consider it racist. And you know the people here have no idea about your culture about black face so happily it isnt go to change. I for example see things in your country that will never be considered ok here, but you know different countries different history, different standards. (for example, in usa you public all the time the face os childrem and minors, like children of famous people, without the consent of the parents. here that is illegal)

I think it is important as we judge other cultures to undestand that what seems obvious to us maybe it is because of our culture, and that our culture is not universal, in especial things like this, where is very important the past (in this case if the people didnt use to mock the blacks in your country them im sure you will not see a problem with it).

Yes i want to left it here, because i dont want to change anyone opinion, i never wanted you to say blackface is ok because i know why is bad in usa, i just want you to understand why is not bad in all the countries in the world.

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I did see that! Have you seen the article on Jezeble about the white model bronzed and tanned into an 'african queen' its not just racist its tasteless too. :snooty:

I was so grossed out by that...and the guy responsible said something like "why get a black model when you could spraypaint a white one?"

:pull-hair:

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I just want to share this link, here is a person imitating michael jackson in a program about imitation of singers. she happens to be a white woman, and you can see that it is posible to imitate a black without making fun of them

so, what is racist about it? that be considered racist in usa? why?

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Some articles on international blackface:

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/expl ... srael.html

These performances began in America, where they toured all over the country, but they quickly spread to Western Europe and especially the British Empire. Rudyard Kipling noted blackface among British troops in India, and when Commodore Perry famously sailed into Tokyo Bay to open Japan to the West, he brought a minstrel show with him. In the early 20th century the conventions and iconography of blackface continued to be exported abroad through American popular culture, including in American cartoons, movies, and commercial products.

http://www.complex.com/pop-culture/2009 ... -blackface

http://thegrio.com/2012/10/17/blackface ... therlands/

The Netherlands isn’t the only country where blackface is part of the Christmas tradition. Spain can claim that custom as well. But the Spanish use of blackface has nothing to do with Santa. Their reasons are biblical. While Santa Claus has become a more recent addition to the Christmas season in Spain, traditionally the three Wise Men or the Three Kings gave out gifts on January 6. These are the same three guys who brought gifts to the baby Jesus upon his birth. That makes sense. What doesn’t make as much sense is why white Spaniards feel the need to paint their faces black in order to ‘realistically’ portray Balthazar in parades and in church festivals. Besides the fact that the Bible never explicitly mentions what race Balthazar was, one can only wonder why it seems so necessary to paint one’s face black at all. Could it possibly be that Spaniards just enjoy blackface and this opportunity to employ it?

Googling "Blackface in Spain"

http://ethiopia.limbo13.com/index.php/b ... blackface/

http://futurediplo.blogspot.com/2011/12 ... spain.html

http://www.thespoiler.co.uk/2009/01/08/ ... to-racism/

Blackface (and yellowface, etc) are offensive because racial identities are not something you can take on and off. To do so shows that ugly thing called privilege. Intent means nothing. Intent doesn't mean that a behavior isn't racist or harmful to a group. In fact, here's a great quote about intent when it comes to racist behavior (or any negative behavior for that matter):

When people bring up intent, they’re talking about what someone meant to do, rather than what they did. And that’s cool, I get it. I didn’t mean to be a dick to Asian peoples when I was a kid. I thought I was just having fun with my cousin. My grandmom knew better and put me in my place.

People intend a lot of things, but the only thing that matters is what they actually do. If what you intended to do is show your respect for someone, and you do it by replicating an incredibly dehumanizing practice, guess what! You’re a jerk. You can be a jerk through ignorance as well as malice. And blackface? Kind of a jerk move.

So, even if that performer was just intending to pay homage to Michael Jackson by painting herself up, her actions are still hurtful and offensive.

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I ran across this while searching for Harry Connick, Jr. videos. This was on an Australian TV show called Hey Hey It's Saturday (kind of like the Gong Show??) where Harry was judge. Skip to the 2:15 mark and listen to what Harry says. Then to the 5:25 mark and listen to his interview with the show's host.

SPOILER FOR OFFENSIVE CONTENT.

qEtjaZ8ZuNU

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