Logic says that herd immunity is false.

[nelliebelle1197]

Yeah, but see... the typical doctor visit used to go like this (by now they don't ask any more):

Doctor: "Which vaccinations does your kid have?"

Me: "None because (explains background)."

Doctor: "Oh but you MUST have your kid vaccinated for (list a dozen things)! I assure you, it is TOTALLY safe!"

Me: "Really, totally safe?"

Doctor: "Absolutely! No risk involved!"

Me: "Great! So will you give me that in writing; as in: a legal document (explaining details as I already did in this thread)?"

Doctor: "Uhmmm... no. I see your point, it's probably better to not vaccinate your kid with your medical history."

Me: "Aha."

They don't ask you anymore because you are trying to assign them a liability they should not bear and they are answering in the neutral way they can, not because you are getting at some core truth.

[ShesCrafty]

The opposite is the case - IF something goes wrong (which the doctors deny being a result of the vaccination!), the average doctors will try to tell you that it must be the fault of something else, but not of the vaccine. That's what happened to my mother when it happened to me; the only doctor who would stand by us was my own doctor. I've seen two more cases of vaccination going terribly wrong over the years, and in both cases the parents of the kids were told that it was because of something else.

Yep, I agree with Slt, I don't know one doctor that would claim people never have bad reactions to vaccines, just that they rarely do and the benefits far outweigh the costs. I believe you might be...exaggerating your stories about the doctors you and your friends and family have interacted with :liar: . Even if you haven't (big if), your anecdotes aren't evidence, just anecdotes.

[RealityTVRN]

I don't know of any doctors here in the US that don't vax their own children. That's not to say that there aren't some outliers.

Health care providers can only give you the info that you WANT to hear. No one would sign a waiver here. In fact, making such outrageous demands might be enough to earn you a letter telling you to find another care provider.

You may legitimately think that your reaction was caused by a vax. Maybe it was, since it seems you got yours in the time period of live viruses. It's important to realize that proximity of time does NOT equal causation and believing that it does will lead to misdiagnosis.

[skeptifem]

Doctors are required to give you the CDC information sheet when giving vaccinations. You get them even if you are just getting a flu shot and they outline the benefits and risks. The story of a doctor saying there is no risk and refusing to put it in writing sounds like a load of BS to me in light of that.

I'm saying this as someone who had to get basically all my vaccinations twice (for career reasons, its a long boring story). I got chicken pox vaccine, MMR, hepatitis B vaccine, and DTAP as an adult. Every single one came with an info sheet.

[FakePigtails]

Maybe I should look into it again. I was told they usually don't give it if you have had a partner already, but maybe that doesn't matter anymore.

I'm married and my doctor didn't blink at me asking for it. If your doctor is using that as a reason to deny Gardasil I'd find a different one. Shit happens, people get widowed or cheated on. It's wise to cover yourself while you can.

[notsocommon]

That document sounds insane. I don't think anyone in their right mind would sign that, even if they were confident that what they were doing was safe.

I would not sign such a document to drive someone's kid across town.

[RandomTrivia]

He has an MD. He once was a legitimate (maybe, can't say for sure, since I have NOT worked with him) cardiac surgeon. (I HOPE he is no longer doing cardiac surgeries, because he cannot possibly now do enough of them to remain fully competent in that area).

He is now an entertainer, and an advertiser for all kinds of stuff. Period.

If you want to read up on Dr Oz's shift away from medicine, there are quite a few articles on both ScienceBlogs.com (http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/01/30/dr-ozs-journey-to-the-dark-side/ is a start) and ScienceBasedMedicine.com (http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/the-trouble-with-dr-oz/). Apparently he's going more and more to the quackery side of things. At any rate, he's spending enough time on TV that I don't think I'd want him operating on me.

I'm pretty sure my parents (or Mom, at least) watch his show and follow some of his advice. Probably being pushed along that path by my sister the acupuncturist/yoga teacher/degreed practitioner of Traditional Chinese Medicine - the one who wouldn't give my year-old nephew some fucking Tylenol when he had a 100+ degree fever this winter, and whose website implied that yoga could cure anything and everything. (Yes, I think it can lower stress, which can help with some things, but it's not going to cure diabetes, for fucks sake.)

[skeptifem]

Dr. Oz said his family has used homeopathic medicine for 4 generations. Its been an ongoing issue.

After working with doctors a lot, the faith most people have in them astounds me. Especially someone like dr oz, who is a cardiac surgeon ffs. I wouldn't ask him about anything besides heart surgery- why would he be knowledgeable about endocrine problems or cancer or other complex diseases he has never treated? Doctors learn almost nothing about nutrition and it seems like that is about 90% of his show.

[dairyfreelife]

I'm married and my doctor didn't blink at me asking for it. If your doctor is using that as a reason to deny Gardasil I'd find a different one. Shit happens, people get widowed or cheated on. It's wise to cover yourself while you can.

I will see if I can get it, call and ask about it this week. I can get a second opinion if they say I cannot. I have not asked recently. Last obgyn visit I had a horrible cold, so I don't think I asked much of anything. I was there, but my mind was back home in bed.

[mg78]

You may legitimately think that your reaction was caused by a vax. Maybe it was, since it seems you got yours in the time period of live viruses. It's important to realize that proximity of time does NOT equal causation and believing that it does will lead to misdiagnosis.

At the same time, there has been only a couple cases, although do not remember exactly which specific vaccine but it is a modern vaccine, where people with a rare immune "defect" have had very bad reactions after vaccination and they had to be hospitalized. Again, the probability for this is extremely low and the risk-benefit assessment will tell you to go and get a vaccine.

[apple1]

I realize this is getting a little off topic, but...

There are no words to communicate my contempt for Dr. Oz, for using his MD for respectability while preying upon the gullible. I cannot tell how many older people (and I am old myself, so to speak, but I am talking more my parents' generation, who were raised not to question anyone with an MD) have commented to me, knowing that I am a long-time healthcare professional, "Dr. Oz says..." or "Well, according to Dr. Oz," followed by some unhelpful at best, all the way to extremely harmful, tale. Usually these tales involve spending money for something Oz is currently advertising.

I am all for eating well, exercising, reducing stress, etc. For the record, this advice is FREE.

If you need to shell out your money to get in on the latest thing being touted, some red flags ought to be popping up. (Shoot, even the senior closest to me who LOVES Dr. Oz says, "If I bought everything Dr. Oz says to get, I wouldn't have any money left.")

[Wolfie]

I realize this is getting a little off topic, but...

There are no words to communicate my contempt for Dr. Oz, for using his MD for respectability while preying upon the gullible. I cannot tell how many older people (and I am old myself, so to speak, but I am talking more my parents' generation, who were raised not to question anyone with an MD) have commented to me, knowing that I am a long-time healthcare professional, "Dr. Oz says..." or "Well, according to Dr. Oz," followed by some unhelpful at best, all the way to extremely harmful, tale. Usually these tales involve spending money for something Oz is currently advertising.

I am all for eating well, exercising, reducing stress, etc. For the record, this advice is FREE.

If you need to shell out your money to get in on the latest thing being touted, some red flags ought to be popping up. (Shoot, even the senior closest to me who LOVES Dr. Oz says, "If I bought everything Dr. Oz says to get, I wouldn't have any money left.")

My family had problems with an elderly relative who hung on every word he said too. I am very glad that it was when he was still somewhat mainstream, and not now with all the woo he promotes.

[Coconut Flan]

If you need to shell out your money to get in on the latest thing being touted, some red flags ought to be popping up. (Shoot, even the senior closest to me who LOVES Dr. Oz says, "If I bought everything Dr. Oz says to get, I wouldn't have any money left.")

Not long after Dr Oz got his own show a friend recommended I watch for all "his good info." I watched four or five shows and had a list of 20 to 30 items that I needed to buy and consume. I removed him from the DVR as it was apparent that each show would have at least one new item to buy and most of his advice was quick, punchy, and more for entertainment than education.

[formergothardite]

It is like Dr. Oz thinks he is an expert on all things medical. No one can be an expert in as many fields as he claims.

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

I'm allergic to a commonly used antibiotic, doctors know it can cause an allergic reaction, but it doesn't do it to most people, I was just one of the unlucky ones. I would be stupid, though, to demand all doctors sign a legal document stating that they would be held personally responsible if my child had an allergic reaction to any antibiotics they gave them just because I had an allergic reaction. Doctors can't predict who will and won't have a reaction. Most people won't, and then there are the few like me that almost stop breathing.

+1. (I learned a few years ago while being treated for a bad case of strep that I am all of a sudden allergic to penicillin.)

[Green Glass]

I feel like for a lot of these people, it's a lack of critical thinking. (Note that I'm not talking about those who had a bad reaction with a vaccine... it's understandable to be wary then. I'm talking about people who just decide vaccines are bad.) They just can't understand risk vs benefit, and they don't get that while some people will have bad reactions to the vaccines, far more people would've gotten sick and died if there were no vaccines and the diseases spread.

The lack of critical thinking makes sense when it comes to fundies because they tend to discourage logic etc, but for non-fundies I don't know why they buy into this.