Logic says that herd immunity is false.

[docmom]

I thought Dr. Oz was a real doctor. Wikipedia (I know) says he is. I've never watched his show and don't know much about him but it does say he has an MD. And that he performs 200 heart surgeries a year. If he's doing that I hope he's a real doctor!

Dr. Oz is a real doctor. He's a cardiac surgeon. He's on faculty at Columbia. It doesn't make him an expert on everything in medicine, but he's definitely a real doctor.

[dairyfreelife]

Dr. Oz is a real doctor. He's a cardiac surgeon. He's on faculty at Columbia. It doesn't make him an expert on everything in medicine, but he's definitely a real doctor.

Should have said it better. He is a doctor, but he's a shitty one. Not a real doctor in my book because he is spreading lies and as a doctor, he should fucking know better.

[docmom]

As many of us have said- it's people like you who have had severe reactions that is why everybody who can get vaccinated should. Herd immunity theory allows for a small amount of people who can't be vaccinated as long as nearly everybody else is vaccinated. They protect you.

There is a reasonable chance that you got vaccinated with live oral polio vaccine which is a wonderful, effective vaccine but can revert to wild type polio in a very small number of vaccinees. THis is why we no longer use live oral polio vaccine in this country (the only native cases of polio seen in the Western Hemisphere in the past 20 years have been from the vaccine). If this was the case, you actually didn't have a bad allergic reaction to the vaccine, you had a known and now, completely preventable side effect. There is no evidence to support inheritance of specific allergies. If you are allergic to something (cats, dogs, antibiotics) there is an increased chance your children will also suffer from allergies, but you cannot inherit a particular allergy. I can understand your concern, but honestly, not vaccinating your children is irrational. I don't mean this in a bad way- we are all irrational in that we are absolutely hopeless at correctly identifying risk. We allow our own personal experiences and prejudices to guide our actions. For example, driving a car is much more dangerous than flying in a plane but almost nobody is afraid of driving in a car and many many people are afraid of flying. In the case of vaccines there is a mountain of evidence that they are safe and effective and way, way better than the diseases they prevent, but we still have these arguments.

[docmom]

Should have said it better. He is a doctor, but he's a shitty one. Not a real doctor in my book because he is spreading lies and as a doctor, he should fucking know better.

Gotta agree with you there. I've actually worked with him and I'd better say no more....

[tanksmom]

As someone who had whooping cough as a teenager (before they started advocating vaccines for teenagers/adults) let me tell anyone who thinks it's no big deal that they need slapped across the head. A recap of what happens from someone in the Been There Done That Got a T-shirt group.

Imagine have a wet washcloth over your nose and mouth every time you try to breath in. While you can breath it is impossible to take a full breath. You start to feel like you are one breath away from drowning. You have to sleep sitting up since laying down allows fluid to pool in your lungs and that sets off a coughing fit. When you start coughing your hands and feet turn blue from lack of oxygen. As if that isn't bad enough while you are gasping for whatever air you can get before you pass out you also start to throw up from the force of the coughing. So it is not that uncommon to breath in your puke which just makes your coughing worse and you go around in a vicious circle. Cough, throw up, breath in puke, lather rinse repeat. While they are trying to keep you hydrated with an IV you can't eat and can barely talk because you are terrified that it will start another coughing fit. It was the most miserable time of my life and I would give anything to make sure that my children didn't have to experience it for themselves. Oh and I have permanent lung damage from it which means that in the winter when it gets cold I have to breath through multiple scarves to warm the air, put my gloved hand in front of my mouth or else I go into a coughing fit. If it gets below 10 degrees F I stay inside if possible because it's more trouble then it's worth. This happened *mumble mumble* years ago so hopefully there are more effective treatments now but these "typical non dangerous" childhood diseases are nothing to mess with.

[Wolfie]

A lot of arguments come from fear of links and being full of poisons. Crazy links that it causes autism, SIDS, ADHD, allergies, asthma, cancer and even Shaken Baby Syndrome. The last one is so insane I am not even going to bother with it in my paper. SIDS has been around forever it seems, originally termed overlaying in the belief that mothers caused the death by laying on her baby and would punish her as a result. And the other ideas are all easily refutable as well based on statistics.

Some form of SIDS seems to occur in all animals, not just people. I've raised a few types of animals- chickens, quail, guinea pigs, rabbits and chinchillas, and there are sudden deaths of baby animals with no warnings. There must be something in their developing brains that doesn't work right. Knowing it exists in all animals doesn't make it any easier for a parent to loose a baby, though. That has got to be one of the worst things in the world.

(and another thing I worry about as anti-vaccine mania grows, the babies and children who will die or be severely impared after an illness.)

[Wolfie]

I thought Dr. Oz was a real doctor. Wikipedia (I know) says he is. I've never watched his show and don't know much about him but it does say he has an MD. And that he performs 200 heart surgeries a year. If he's doing that I hope he's a real doctor!

From what I know he's a real doctor- but he's the worst kind in that he talks with authority about areas where his expertise is not. He also endorses quack theories (that intuitive healer thing this past week?) Every once in a while he has something good to say, but he has a lot of garbage and quackery too, and way too many people listen to him.

[Burris]

I was born in Russia (when it was the USSR) and I have been vaccinated for TB. I don't know if this vaccine would actually help me during a real TB outbreak. I do always get false positives for TB though, which is fun to explain...

The SFRY took public health measures, too. I'm actually pretty sure they were at least somewhat effective, or else TB and other such conditions would have been way, wayyy more common - but fucking diphtheria actually made a come-back in the 90s, eventually controlled by *gasp* the evils of medical science.

I know some kids have adverse reactions to vaccination, but the situation for those kids – and for everyone else – would be unbelievably worse if not for the medical marvel of vaccination. (If you think a bad reaction to a TB shot is harsh, try considering what it would be like to contract TB itself - and worse; there are now totally untreatable variants of the condition.)

And now an anti-vaxer is arguing herd immunity doesn't exist. Dipshit! If not for herd immunity, her kids would have the same potential death rates as kids did before the advent of mass vaccination. She'd have some grave digging to do.

[Bonnie]

There is a reasonable chance that you got vaccinated with live oral polio vaccine

That is correct, however...

THis is why we no longer use live oral polio vaccine in this country (the only native cases of polio seen in the Western Hemisphere in the past 20 years have been from the vaccine).

...you're totally missing the fact that this happened (pretty much exactly) 36 years ago.

Also, I'd like to add that it's not like I haven't thought of vaccinating my son, particularly when doctors / teachers / whoever clever it was told me that it was my *duty* to have him vaccinated.

Whenever this subject was brought up, I actually *agreed* to have my son vaccinated - under the condition that the (doctor / teacher / whoever) would sign a legal document stating that *if* anything would go wrong with my kid caused by that vaccination, *they* would personally pay with their own private income for possible damages.

Now, if that vaccination would have been so very harmless, as you claim, answer me this:

Why did *each and every one* of the doctors / teachers / whoever immediately back off after I asked for that document and instead claimed that it would probably really be better to not have my son vaccinated, no matter which vaccination this was about?

(In case anyone knows a doctor or hospital in Germany who / which would be glad to sign such a document, I will immediately seek them out for the vaccination of my son and myself!)

[Guest Anonymous]

That is correct, however...

...you're totally missing the fact that this happened (pretty much exactly) 36 years ago.

Also, I'd like to add that it's not like I haven't thought of vaccinating my son, particularly when doctors / teachers / whoever clever it was told me that it was my *duty* to have him vaccinated.

Whenever this subject was brought up, I actually *agreed* to have my son vaccinated - under the condition that the (doctor / teacher / whoever) would sign a legal document stating that *if* anything would go wrong with my kid caused by that vaccination, *they* would personally pay with their own private income for possible damages.

Now, if that vaccination would have been so very harmless, as you claim, answer me this:

Why did *each and every one* of the doctors / teachers / whoever immediately back off after I asked for that document and instead claimed that it would probably really be better to not have my son vaccinated, no matter which vaccination this was about?

(In case anyone knows a doctor or hospital in Germany who / which would be glad to sign such a document, I will immediately seek them out for the vaccination of my son and myself!)

That document sounds insane. I don't think anyone in their right mind would sign that, even if they were confident that what they were doing was safe.

[Bonnie]

That document sounds insane. I don't think anyone in their right mind would sign that, even if they were confident that what they were doing was safe.

You call it insane. I call it my son's and my insurance in case the vaccination would go wrong, as I witnessed it going wrong once before. *shrugs*

[Wolfie]

Also, I'd like to add that it's not like I haven't thought of vaccinating my son, particularly when doctors / teachers / whoever clever it was told me that it was my *duty* to have him vaccinated.

Whenever this subject was brought up, I actually *agreed* to have my son vaccinated - under the condition that the (doctor / teacher / whoever) would sign a legal document stating that *if* anything would go wrong with my kid caused by that vaccination, *they* would personally pay with their own private income for possible damages.

Now, if that vaccination would have been so very harmless, as you claim, answer me this:

Why did *each and every one* of the doctors / teachers / whoever immediately back off after I asked for that document and instead claimed that it would probably really be better to not have my son vaccinated, no matter which vaccination this was about?

(In case anyone knows a doctor or hospital in Germany who / which would be glad to sign such a document, I will immediately seek them out for the vaccination of my son and myself!)

Because you can NEVER predict the outcome of any medical procedure with 100% certainty. I'm pretty sure the doctors saw a malpractice suit in the making if they even treated you or your son with the threat of that document. They probably were thinking, "get that crazy lady out of my office."

[DarkAnts]

Now, if that vaccination would have been so very harmless, as you claim, answer me this:

Why did *each and every one* of the doctors / teachers / whoever immediately back off after I asked for that document and instead claimed that it would probably really be better to not have my son vaccinated, no matter which vaccination this was about?

(In case anyone knows a doctor or hospital in Germany who / which would be glad to sign such a document, I will immediately seek them out for the vaccination of my son and myself!)

Because its wrong to hold someone personally responsible for something they have no control over. They have no personal control over how your body will respond to the vaccine. The vast majority of people do NOT have adverse reaction to vaccines. This is why they are considered safe.

However, by your choice to not vaccinate, you are personally liable if a you or your son transmit a preventable disease to someone who can not be vaccinated. You are also personally liable if that person dies or has lasting complications.

[docmom]

You call it insane. I call it my son's and my insurance in case the vaccination would go wrong, as I witnessed it going wrong once before. *shrugs*

No, it really was insane. :roll:

[Burris]

Whenever this subject was brought up, I actually *agreed* to have my son vaccinated - under the condition that the (doctor / teacher / whoever) would sign a legal document stating that *if* anything would go wrong with my kid caused by that vaccination, *they* would personally pay with their own private income for possible damages.

Now, if that vaccination would have been so very harmless, as you claim, answer me this:

Why did *each and every one* of the doctors / teachers / whoever immediately back off after I asked for that document and instead claimed that it would probably really be better to not have my son vaccinated, no matter which vaccination this was about?

(In case anyone knows a doctor or hospital in Germany who / which would be glad to sign such a document, I will immediately seek them out for the vaccination of my son and myself!)

OMG! They backed off because that document of yours is fucking insane. Gee, I cannot imagine why no one would sign it. People occasionally react badly to vaccines - and to surgery, anesthetic, specific sanitizers, and so on. There are no guarantees – and no one with even two brain cells would be so bold as to offer you a false sense of security by signing that document of yours.

You call it insane. I call it my son's and my insurance in case the vaccination would go wrong, as I witnessed it going wrong once before. *shrugs*

Yes, I, too, call it insane. Totally unhinged. Fucking bananas...you get where I'm going here.

Pfft, you're potentially putting him in the way of a bigger fust - your choice - just so he might avoid a smaller one; whereas doctors have no choice as to whether a vaccine will cause an adverse reaction or not. They aren't gods.

[Bonnie]

However, by your choice to not vaccinate, you are personally liable if a you or your son transmit a preventable disease to someone who can not be vaccinated. You are also personally liable if that person dies or has lasting complications.

So... because I cannot be vaccinated (went wrong once, can go wrong again) and because there are no statistics if, and how, that could be inherited, my son can't be vaccinated either, *we* are responsible for others who *also* cannot be vaccinated (for maybe the very same reasons)?

As I said, I'm not against vaccination in general. But people should also know about *possible* problems vaccinations *can* cause. I'm perfectly aware that those problems will (by far!) not be present for every vaccinated person.

But with what happened to me, I think that my son and particularly me are part of the 'problematic people'. Please understand that I don't want to take that risk for myself or my son; even if some may call me the 'crazy lady' and / or 'insane' for that - I can live with that.

[docmom]

That is correct, however...

...you're totally missing the fact that this happened (pretty much exactly) 36 years ago.

Also, I'd like to add that it's not like I haven't thought of vaccinating my son, particularly when doctors / teachers / whoever clever it was told me that it was my *duty* to have him vaccinated.

Whenever this subject was brought up, I actually *agreed* to have my son vaccinated - under the condition that the (doctor / teacher / whoever) would sign a legal document stating that *if* anything would go wrong with my kid caused by that vaccination, *they* would personally pay with their own private income for possible damages.

Now, if that vaccination would have been so very harmless, as you claim, answer me this:

Why did *each and every one* of the doctors / teachers / whoever immediately back off after I asked for that document and instead claimed that it would probably really be better to not have my son vaccinated, no matter which vaccination this was about?

(In case anyone knows a doctor or hospital in Germany who / which would be glad to sign such a document, I will immediately seek them out for the vaccination of my son and myself!)

It's obviously pretty pointless to argue with you as facts clearly don't enter into your world view, but the exact point I was trying to make, is that you probably had a live vaccine, which may have resulted in a known side effect. That vaccine is no longer used in the US and most of Europe, therefore, you shouldn't worry about that particular side effect any more. The change away from live polio vaccine occurred in 2000 in the US and 2004 in the UK.

[DarkAnts]

So... because I cannot be vaccinated (went wrong once, can go wrong again) and because there are no statistics if, and how, that could be inherited, my son can't be vaccinated either, *we* are responsible for others who *also* cannot be vaccinated (for maybe the very same reasons)?

As I said, I'm not against vaccination in general. But people should also know about *possible* problems vaccinations *can* cause. I'm perfectly aware that those problems will (by far!) not be present for every vaccinated person.

But with what happened to me, I think that my son and particularly me are part of the 'problematic people'. Please understand that I don't want to take that risk for myself or my son; even if some may call me the 'crazy lady' and / or 'insane' for that - I can live with that.

I never said you are personally responsible for everyone who can not get vaccinated. I said you would be held personally responsible if you or your son transmitted a preventable disease to one of these people. There is a difference, but I kind of question your critical thinking skills at this point.

If you are worried about the way you will react to a vaccine the I suggest getting a allergy skin test for each vaccine. Thats the only reason my doctor lets me get the flu vaccine. I am allergic to eggs so I was exempt from getting the vaccine. I had a horrible case of the flu ending with pneumonia. My doctor decided to see if I would actually react to the flu shot after this incident. I had a skin allergy test and it showed that I had NO allergy or adverse reaction to the vaccination.

[Burris]

So... because I cannot be vaccinated (went wrong once, can go wrong again) and because there are no statistics if, and how, that could be inherited, my son can't be vaccinated either, *we* are responsible for others who *also* cannot be vaccinated (for maybe the very same reasons)?

So the vaccine caused a bad reaction once for you, therefor you can never be vaccinated for anything again - and nor can your son, because he might have inherited your sensitivity. And this is assuming no changes have been made to the vaccines' contents since you were effected.

I can live with that.

Um...or not.

You'd better hope herd immunity is enough to protect you.

[Bonnie]

It's obviously pretty pointless to argue with you as facts clearly don't enter into your world view, but the exact point I was trying to make, is that you probably had a live vaccine, which may have resulted in a known side effect. That vaccine is no longer used in the US and most of Europe, therefore, you shouldn't worry about that particular side effect any more.

Possible. But there are other possible side effects (not just from the polio vaccine, but also from other vaccines). Those are the ones I worry about. Once bitten, twice shy is the saying I believe.

Sorry if I seem to come over crazy. I wonder if you'd still think I'm crazy if you were in my shoes.

[formergothardite]

That is correct, however...

...you're totally missing the fact that this happened (pretty much exactly) 36 years ago.

Also, I'd like to add that it's not like I haven't thought of vaccinating my son, particularly when doctors / teachers / whoever clever it was told me that it was my *duty* to have him vaccinated.

Whenever this subject was brought up, I actually *agreed* to have my son vaccinated - under the condition that the (doctor / teacher / whoever) would sign a legal document stating that *if* anything would go wrong with my kid caused by that vaccination, *they* would personally pay with their own private income for possible damages.

Now, if that vaccination would have been so very harmless, as you claim, answer me this:

Why did *each and every one* of the doctors / teachers / whoever immediately back off after I asked for that document and instead claimed that it would probably really be better to not have my son vaccinated, no matter which vaccination this was about?

(In case anyone knows a doctor or hospital in Germany who / which would be glad to sign such a document, I will immediately seek them out for the vaccination of my son and myself!)

I'm allergic to a commonly used antibiotic, doctors know it can cause an allergic reaction, but it doesn't do it to most people, I was just one of the unlucky ones. I would be stupid, though, to demand all doctors sign a legal document stating that they would be held personally responsible if my child had an allergic reaction to any antibiotics they gave them just because I had an allergic reaction. Doctors can't predict who will and won't have a reaction. Most people won't, and then there are the few like me that almost stop breathing.

[apple1]

Gotta agree with you there. I've actually worked with him and I'd better say no more....

He has an MD. He once was a legitimate (maybe, can't say for sure, since I have NOT worked with him) cardiac surgeon. (I HOPE he is no longer doing cardiac surgeries, because he cannot possibly now do enough of them to remain fully competent in that area).

He is now an entertainer, and an advertiser for all kinds of stuff. Period.

[Jinger Jar]

That is correct, however...

...you're totally missing the fact that this happened (pretty much exactly) 36 years ago.

Also, I'd like to add that it's not like I haven't thought of vaccinating my son, particularly when doctors / teachers / whoever clever it was told me that it was my *duty* to have him vaccinated.

Whenever this subject was brought up, I actually *agreed* to have my son vaccinated - under the condition that the (doctor / teacher / whoever) would sign a legal document stating that *if* anything would go wrong with my kid caused by that vaccination, *they* would personally pay with their own private income for possible damages.

Now, if that vaccination would have been so very harmless, as you claim, answer me this:

Why did *each and every one* of the doctors / teachers / whoever immediately back off after I asked for that document and instead claimed that it would probably really be better to not have my son vaccinated, no matter which vaccination this was about?

(In case anyone knows a doctor or hospital in Germany who / which would be glad to sign such a document, I will immediately seek them out for the vaccination of my son and myself!)

I should hope no professional would sign something goofy like that. If they did, I would lead the charge in getting their professional qualifications revoked for pure stupidity.

[already hungover]

I'm allergic to a commonly used antibiotic, doctors know it can cause an allergic reaction, but it doesn't do it to most people, I was just one of the unlucky ones. I would be stupid, though, to demand all doctors sign a legal document stating that they would be held personally responsible if my child had an allergic reaction to any antibiotics they gave them just because I had an allergic reaction. Doctors can't predict who will and won't have a reaction. Most people won't, and then there are the few like me that almost stop breathing.

Plus anyone can develop an allergy later in life, family history aside. Is every doctor Bonnie's child encounters supposed to sign this crazy document, or just the first one to vaccinate him?

[Bonnie]

Plus anyone can develop an allergy later in life, family history aside. Is every doctor Bonnie's child encounters supposed to sign this crazy document, or just the first one to vaccinate him?

'Just' the doctors, teachers or whoever else *insists* that I *must* have my son vaccinated.

By the way, my son is 13 years old. As soon as he's 18 (and mature in my country) he can decide for himself if he wants to be vaccinated or not; I will not even try to influence him on that decision. He does know the background story, though. But as long as *I* am responsible for him, I cannot and will not take that risk alone.