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Logic says that herd immunity is false.


Wolfie

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This. stuff. drives. me. crazy.

Whenever I decide to try to give anti-vax stuff another chance, just to try to understand my anti-vax friends, I see the same thing. Deeply fraught emotional arguments based on misinformation or misunderstanding of information.

And then the comments. *head exploding*

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I do not have the exact citation, but you can see the herd immunity concept being applied in the effort to erradicate polio from Nigeria, Afghanistan and Pakistan (sadly due to the recent killings of vaccination workers some of the campaigns had to be stopped, but that is another story). You have scientific data that they need to vaccinate a high proportion of the population to stop the viral transmission and if they do not get their target, the campaign fails to stop virus transmission.

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Exactly. And in those areas of the world sanitation infrastructure and access to clean water has not increased at the same rate as access to vaccines, so there is no arguing that soap and hot running water stopped the diseases without help from vaccines. People living much the same way their grandparents did, or even farther back, are losing fewer children to VPD. Because...vaccines.

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Pffft... who needs science when you have Jenny McCarthy?!

:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

I can't believe that in 2013, in some of the world's most progressive nations, with iPhones and fuckin' Wall-E on MARS, we're STILL discussing this shit. STILL.

Meanwhile, literally A BILLION people around the world - no exaggeration - walk for miles on end to the nearest charity-run field clinic get their kids vaccines. Because THEY - people who, for the most part, can neither read nor write, let alone research WebMD - get it. And we do not. It's ASTOUNDING.

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:clap: :clap: :clap: Thank you! I was on another message board for moms the other day and could not believe the number of people who were so adamantly convinced in the herd immunity theory and just so anti-freaking-vax. A small group of us were trying our best, but just could not get through to them. I just gave up and split cause I was getting nowhere. Hopefully someone who's not sure of what they should do is swayed by the argument we made and vaccinates their child. I want to slap Jenny McCarthy so bad my hand is twitching.

eta It pisses me off when it's implied that I'm a bad mother because I vaccinate following the guidelines of our pediatrician and the CDC. I'm responsible. So there.

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The US is due for another good plague.

I suspect that you are right. I just wish that the anti-vaxers themselves would be the ones to bear the brunt of it, but most of them are adults and were probably properly vaccinated by their parents so it's their innocent children who will pay the price.

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We're already dealing with the resurgence of pertussis. It's converted a few anti-vaxers that I knew. It only took one kid in a play group coming down with it to send the rest of the anti-vaxers running for immunizations.

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We're already dealing with the resurgence of pertussis. It's converted a few anti-vaxers that I knew. It only took one kid in a play group coming down with it to send the rest of the anti-vaxers running for immunizations.

Good thing. Nearly killed a friend's 6 week old daughter last year. She stopped breathing TWICE.

My grandmother lost two sisters at the same time due to measles. Not an era I'd want to live in.

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I don't get the refusal to vaccinate. Yes, there are some children who cannot receive all of the vaccines (I have one of them) but she has gotten everything else and the rest of our family is fully vaxed, so it just stuns me that there are people who play Russian roulette with their children's lives like this.

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Admittedly I don't get flu shots but I would if I worked in an environment where there were high risks of contagion or had a weakened immune system for some reason. But I really don't understand people who don't vax for such terrible diseases such as tetanos, polio, diphteria, etc. ? I don't know how can anyone trick themselves into thinking these diseases have disappeared for any other reason than the vaccines. And sure, there are risks, but then there are risks in a lot of things. What will happen if, or when, a non vaxxer's child dies of a disease he or she should never have caught in the first place?

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While I respect the right of anti-vaxxers to make their own choices (and wanna slap Jenny McCarthy too) the others who didn't make that choice getting sick is my concern. Aren't there some folks (like cancer patients) who can't get the vaccines who can catch it? I always worried about my grandparents & great aunts while they were alive.

Couldn't quote Laura Oz above easily, but yeah, I vaccinate & I think at times I'm the only mom who follows the schedule in town:) I also want my kid (no regular exposure to other kids/germs) to catch stuff to build his immunity before we go to preschool- so when he chews the shopping cart handle I don't freak out. I want him prepared, and immunizations are a great way to do it. I'm sure my grandfather would rather have been able to have had a shot than a year in an iron lung with TB I think it was.

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We're already dealing with the resurgence of pertussis. It's converted a few anti-vaxers that I knew. It only took one kid in a play group coming down with it to send the rest of the anti-vaxers running for immunizations.

As bad as that is, I'm glad it's changing people's minds. I know we have had a lot of pertussis cases (and some measles too) but I don't know if more people have been coming in to get vax'ed because of that.

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OFFS. I try hard not to judge other parenting decisions (outside of abuse, neglect, etc), but the anti-vaxxers make me absolutely irate. It's not just their own children's health and lives they are risking, but all those who are unable to get vaccinated for actual, medical reasons. And if enough of them stop vaccinating their kids we are going to see a lot more of the horrible diseases of the past come back, possibly even mutated and stronger. Previous generations talk about how they went running to get their kids the vaccinations, even though they weren't anywhere near as tested and safe as they are now!! I think because we no longer know how horrible polio, measles, mumps, etc can be, some (very ignorant) people are no longer scared of them and develop an "it can't happen to me" complex.

This is a blog I stumbled across when trying to find resources to challenge anti-vaxxer's claims, that I couldn't stop reading. She mostly writes concerning the dangers of the so-called natural childbirth movement (she's an ob/gyn), but has some great points about vaccines as well. Here are two of her posts that speak more generally to people who read on the internet for a bit and call themselves "educated" on those subjects.

http://www.skepticalob.com/2009/08/clai ... ealth.html

http://www.skepticalob.com/2012/10/alte ... ledge.html

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I suspect that you are right. I just wish that the anti-vaxers themselves would be the ones to bear the brunt of it, but most of them are adults and were probably properly vaccinated by their parents so it's their innocent children who will pay the price.

I also suspect this, but I also worry that those who aren't vaccinated will allow the diseases to mutate and affect those of us who are.

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I also suspect this, but I also worry that those who aren't vaccinated will allow the diseases to mutate and affect those of us who are.

It's like those people who only take their antibiotics for a couple of days, feel better, then don't do the prescribed days. :roll: Only in this case, they're putting their kids' lives at stake. :evil:

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It's also not just the vaccinated diseases that do harm when someone doesn't vax, it's also the complications. Recently, a young child in my area died from Epiglottitus. Intially, I thought it was just a fluke that a perfectly healthy child would pass away from that; however, I later found out the parents were anti-vaxxers and she had never had the Hib vaccine, which would have likely prevented her death.

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It's also not just the vaccinated diseases that do harm when someone doesn't vax, it's also the complications. Recently, a young child in my area died from Epiglottitus. Intially, I thought it was just a fluke that a perfectly healthy child would pass away from that; however, I later found out the parents were anti-vaxxers and she had never had the Hib vaccine, which would have likely prevented her death.

I have seen people say things like this before, but I don't understand it because it is always the complications of a disease that cause the problems and kill a person. We say that it is the disease because it caused the symptoms and complications.

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I have seen people say things like this before, but I don't understand it because it is always the complications of a disease that cause the problems and kill a person. We say that it is the disease because it caused the symptoms and complications.

Agreed. When reading up on these diseases, it is often stated that they are quite mild, but complications can kill. For example, in the UK we don't vax against chicken pox because it's mild, but the complications can be life threatening.

I got rubella, 1 year before the MMR was licenced. The illness itself was mild, but I developed rubella encephalitis / viral meningitis and was left with permanent health issues. I often think if congenital rubella wasn't so dangerous it would possibly be another one we don't vax here.

And if the anti-vax crowd are so adamant their way is right and make vaxxers feel bad for their (sensible) choices, what happens if they convert too many to their way of thinking? Oh, that's right - a loss of herd immunity! I don't suppose they've stopped to think of that whilst they're so busy being speshul snowflakes.

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I want to start off by saying I loathe Jenny McCarthy with a passion that I cannot even describe.

On that note, I'm on the fence with vaccines. I had my older ones get all of theirs, but then my fourth child (who now has autism) had a horrible reaction to the DTaP combo. Hospitalized and everything. Now, I don't think it was the vaccine. I don't. However, that whole experience scared the shit out of me (it was investigated and found that is was an acute reaction. My ped reported it to VARS and the whole deal).

So, I admit, we stopped for awhile. We tried several times, giving one shot at a time, and he always had some kind of reaction (although not on such a larger scale) that the ped, overall, was concerned with. Again, he's my sensitive one. He reacts to everything.

With my fifth, we did some selective ones. But, I'm wanting to do more. Especially before this next baby comes. We had someone in our home school group spread whooping cough and that was freakin scary.

I have to admit, though. I'm terrified. My fifth has apraxia, and has a speech therapist. She making progress, but now...I just worry, and get scared that somehow, after witnessing my son almost die in front of me, that she'll have the same problem. And then the new baby.

We want them to be up to date. But I admit...I'm terrified.

I did let the whole autism thing scare me for awhile, but I'm seeing that not being up to date on shots is not a good thing either.

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I want to start off by saying I loathe Jenny McCarthy with a passion that I cannot even describe.

On that note, I'm on the fence with vaccines. I had my older ones get all of theirs, but then my fourth child (who now has autism) had a horrible reaction to the DTaP combo. Hospitalized and everything. Now, I don't think it was the vaccine. I don't. However, that whole experience scared the shit out of me (it was investigated and found that is was an acute reaction. My ped reported it to VARS and the whole deal).

So, I admit, we stopped for awhile. We tried several times, giving one shot at a time, and he always had some kind of reaction (although not on such a larger scale) that the ped, overall, was concerned with. Again, he's my sensitive one. He reacts to everything.

With my fifth, we did some selective ones. But, I'm wanting to do more. Especially before this next baby comes. We had someone in our home school group spread whooping cough and that was freakin scary.

I have to admit, though. I'm terrified. My fifth has apraxia, and has a speech therapist. She making progress, but now...I just worry, and get scared that somehow, after witnessing my son almost die in front of me, that she'll have the same problem. And then the new baby.

We want them to be up to date. But I admit...I'm terrified.

I did let the whole autism thing scare me for awhile, but I'm seeing that not being up to date on shots is not a good thing either.

So sorry you had to go through that experience. Some people just cannot tolerate vaccines and have very bad immune reactions to them.. this is another reason why there is a need for herd immunity so even kids who cannot get vaccines are protected as well.

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I shut-down a discussion on FB by saying that if an un-vaccinated kid had come near my dad at his most ill (Lung cancer followed by throat/mouth/tongue cancer) he'd have died. Nobody wants to think about the effects to OTHER PEOPLE - it's all about their kids. Jenny McCarthy makes me SO ANGRY, as does Mayim Bialik - she's a FREAKING NEUROSCIENCE GENIUS but doesn't vax her kids! UGH! :doh:

(BTW - I'm child-free, normally "To each their own", and fully vaccinated, so this debate doesn't really apply to me, but I know enough tinfoil hats that I've tried to sway and it's really a losing battle. They *KNOW* that vaccines cause Autism ( :roll: ), but won't listen to reason or scientific evidence.)

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While I respect the right of anti-vaxxers to make their own choices (and wanna slap Jenny McCarthy too) the others who didn't make that choice getting sick is my concern. Aren't there some folks (like cancer patients) who can't get the vaccines who can catch it? I always worried about my grandparents & great aunts while they were alive.

Couldn't quote Laura Oz above easily, but yeah, I vaccinate & I think at times I'm the only mom who follows the schedule in town:) I also want my kid (no regular exposure to other kids/germs) to catch stuff to build his immunity before we go to preschool- so when he chews the shopping cart handle I don't freak out. I want him prepared, and immunizations are a great way to do it. I'm sure my grandfather would rather have been able to have had a shot than a year in an iron lung with TB I think it was.

I so wish I could have built up my kids' immunity before they started preshool. They were preemies so that wasn't an option. Not just because of the illness itself, but, as yall mentioned, the complications. In part because of their inferior immune systems and the fact that they could have come in contact with an illness their bodies couldn't have handled and because our doctor warned us about the anti vaxers and what could happen to my babies if exposed to their children. I already had OCD, but that took my germ nuttiness to a new level. They - and by extension we- have had an ongoing cold for 2 months. We just shelled out over a thousand bucks for deductibles to have tubes placed in their ears and they haven't been in school for 2 weeks. They are driving me nuts and it looks like they are going to be home for at least another week. Yay. Now the Dr is talking about all of us possibly having to be separated for a week or so to break up the cycle. It worked with another family like ours, apparently. Joy. Did I mention I have OCD and yet we still keep getting it and my hands are raw and cracking from disinfectant? Damn terminator-like germs. Curse you.

I actually had a mom (on the other board) suggest to me that we should have shut ourselves away if we were so afraid of contagion :obscene-birdiedoublered: Ummm, no, why don't you keep your non vaxed petri dish kid home and not infect my kid? Two sides to every argument, I guess. But I still wanted to shake them until their eyes rolled :roll:

edited cause some of the smilies don't like me today. I had one mooning where I'm doing a double flip off and it didn't want to work.

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