Keeping SAHDs -- defeating purpose of Quiverfull?

[flyaway]

I get that lazy parents want their older daughters to take care of their younger children. But if you believe that you should have a quiver full of arrows to engage in culture war with the rest of the population, wouldn't you want not only as many children as possible, but as many grandchildren as possible too? Seems that you wouldn't want your daughters spending their most fertile years unmarried.

[ILoveJellybeans]

I think thats the main reason why their emphasis on sheltering doesnt work, they talk about encouraging their kids to have as many kids as possible, but then limit their chances of meeting a partner and having babies.

If they really want to take over the world, they need to stop making an idol of sheltering.

[Koala]

Fundies: Not known for their logic or well thought out plans.

[JuJuBee]

I think some of them are also eagerly waiting for the 'end of times' to come. It's not a big deal if their 40 year old SAHD isn't married if Jesus is coming back soon to save all the Godly people. I've heard views similar to this before.

[NovemberRain]

It really does defeat the purpose. I agree with what Koala said up thread.

[Izzybee]

I think there's also the infantilization of those SAHDs. I have a friend who unwittingly does this to her eldest daughter - her kids are 11, 8, 4 and 2, and the oldest is supposed to enjoy the activities that are really for the littles. This child is having real trouble relating to her peers because when she suggests an activity, it's something like play doh. Nothing wrong with play doh, but the other girls generally want something more sleepover and gossip related. As I said her mother doesn't do this on purpose, but if she's going to do activities for the kids, she's going to make them for the littles. Her mother also doesn't let her do age appropriate things. At 11, bath time should not be with all the other kids, and she should pick our her own clothes, within reason. I find it hard to talk to the mother about this, so I just generally let the kid in question hang out at our house as much as she wants.

I can imagine having 10 or 13 kids and the SAHDs being trained to enjoy little kid activities, and the mothers, even when the kids are older, have trouble seeing their daughters as grown adults. Especially when women are thought to be a step above children anyway.

[smellypants]

word.

my fundie cousin i think also unknowingly infantilizes her 12 yo daughter who loves to read. This girl was a very active (could be a tomboy kind of girl under the right circumstances) but "girls keep sweet" so she has become an obese (like 140lb less than 5ft tall) 12 year old who SITS ALL DAY.

she goes to the park with her younger sibs but doesnt play. just sits and watches like a doddering aunty. she cant relate to other christian-but-non-fundy neighbours her age and even a 5 year old cousin from the non-fundy side of the family is more worldly than her.

She is encouraged to read alot...but the same books she was reading 3-4 years ago (american girls ie. kit kettridge, boxcar kids, enid blyton)(she hates little house because she cant relate to it). these are not appropriate for a 12 year old! those books are a grade 2-3 level! I tried to introduce her to the Mandie books/mysteries because they are christian but better for preteens but she was scared to read them because i am not fundy and thought they might contain bad things. so she was encouraged to put it aside by her mother and father.

its unbelievably sad. but if they stay at that level then they have no social contacts, it reinforces the 'differentness' and further options other than being a housewife, or training to be one are closed to them. the irony is that they come from a culture that prizes higher education, parents are very very well educated professionalls (before the koolaid) and so there is this push to do well educationally but....their church says that women should not be overly educated.

[Justme]

I think they want other people's daughters to marry their sons. They want to keep control over their daughters. This is pretty much a first generation group. They say in "words", but when faced with adult daughters, they are not willing to give up control.

[Koala]

I think there's also the infantilization of those SAHDs. I have a friend who unwittingly does this to her eldest daughter - her kids are 11, 8, 4 and 2, and the oldest is supposed to enjoy the activities that are really for the littles. This child is having real trouble relating to her peers because when she suggests an activity, it's something like play doh. Nothing wrong with play doh, but the other girls generally want something more sleepover and gossip related. As I said her mother doesn't do this on purpose, but if she's going to do activities for the kids, she's going to make them for the littles. Her mother also doesn't let her do age appropriate things. At 11, bath time should not be with all the other kids, and she should pick our her own clothes, within reason. I find it hard to talk to the mother about this, so I just generally let the kid in question hang out at our house as much as she wants.

I can imagine having 10 or 13 kids and the SAHDs being trained to enjoy little kid activities, and the mothers, even when the kids are older, have trouble seeing their daughters as grown adults. Especially when women are thought to be a step above children anyway.

:( That is just so sad. I'm honestly kind of troubled by her being forced to take a bath with siblings. That doesn't sound right.

[Izzybee]

It goes along with the way everything in that house works, though. To give her credit, she is complaining, and her mom is starting to take notice - but still, I can't imagine having to bring it up. The mom struggles with depression in a way I see a lot of these Fundie moms struggling. I don't think it's intentionally abusive, just a desire to have little babies instead of growing kids.

[ljohnson2006]

Isn't the point to marry off the daughters and have them create quivers of their own? If that's the point, why aren't more of these SAHD at least courting? There's going to come a time when their childbearing years are over, and they have no kids. Totally defeating the purpose.

[YPestis]

It's easy to talk about marrying young and having kids but harder when you've spend all your adult life isolating your daughters from the outside. It's probably also difficult when there's no system in place for fundie singles to get together. Fundies are a fringe group. They are a new culture and they are spread out. By their very nature, many turn to fundie-dom to separate themselves from the world. The sudden need to socialize with other families may take time to sink in. If you closed yourself to the secular world because it's evil and you want to keep your family "pure", you will feel reluctant to let anyone in, especially since you think daughters have to obey their husbands. For some, this is a matter of losing control of their daughters. For others, they just feel protective of their little girls who may now enter a family that exposes her to horrible things like...pants.

I say, the more fringe you are, the less likely you want to marry off your daughters (or even sons). This is classic Darwinism at work. The more hardcore you are about fundie-dom, the more likely you are to remove your children from the gene pool.

[FloraDoraDolly]

Although the Pearls are deplorable, their site actually has some good articles about what they call Cloistered Homeschool Syndrome and how it is harmful to keep teens isolated at home.

[NjoyingNsanity]

It's easy to talk about marrying young and having kids but harder when you've spend all your adult life isolating your daughters from the outside. It's probably also difficult when there's no system in place for fundie singles to get together. Fundies are a fringe group. They are a new culture and they are spread out. By their very nature, many turn to fundie-dom to separate themselves from the world. The sudden need to socialize with other families may take time to sink in. If you closed yourself to the secular world because it's evil and you want to keep your family "pure", you will feel reluctant to let anyone in, especially since you think daughters have to obey their husbands. For some, this is a matter of losing control of their daughters. For others, they just feel protective of their little girls who may now enter a family that exposes her to horrible things like...pants.

I say, the more fringe you are, the less likely you want to marry off your daughters (or even sons). This is classic Darwinism at work. The more hardcore you are about fundie-dom, the more likely you are to remove your children from the gene pool.

I think between that and the fact that there aren't that many fundie families out there and when each family is having a buttload of kids, but the number of fundie families is rather small when compared to the general population that by the third and fourth generations if the Quiverful movement even makes it that far there will be some first cousin marriages so they run the risk of playing a game genetic Russian roulette in a couple generations.

[MamaJunebug]

It really does defeat the purpose. I agree with what Koala said up thread.

May it be ever so. Good way to keep them from taking dominion by the numbers.

[LynnGrey]

They have impossibly high standards for the men who want to date their daughters. First, there's not enough young men to marry them, and it's rare that they'll be godly enough or ready to provide at such a young age. Not only that, but when you raise young boys telling them to be strong leaders, how likely will they be to submit to some girl's father who wants them jump through hoops to court her?

But the logic and the odds don't matter to them--only God does. They think God will overcome the odds.

[pixydust]

That is the plan for quite a few of them, isn't it Dougy with the "200 year plan"? Their problem is that they don't know how to implement the plan...and this is when a matchmaking database/"fundiemingle.com something would really work for many of the families that are just too sheltered.

On the other hand, we have a lot of fundie daughters who aren't getting married for different reasons. I think that the Duggars and Botkins probably are looking for hot/wealthy/important young men to marry. Sarah Maxwell and the Arndts are too controlled by their parents to marry, and the 7 sisters just aren't interested in growing up.

I think the only ones who are successful in getting their kids married off are the S'Morton clan and the Kellers (the Bates are trying really hard!).

[Kira]

It's easy to talk about marrying young and having kids but harder when you've spend all your adult life isolating your daughters from the outside. It's probably also difficult when there's no system in place for fundie singles to get together. Fundies are a fringe group. They are a new culture and they are spread out. By their very nature, many turn to fundie-dom to separate themselves from the world. The sudden need to socialize with other families may take time to sink in. If you closed yourself to the secular world because it's evil and you want to keep your family "pure", you will feel reluctant to let anyone in, especially since you think daughters have to obey their husbands. For some, this is a matter of losing control of their daughters. For others, they just feel protective of their little girls who may now enter a family that exposes her to horrible things like...pants.

I say, the more fringe you are, the less likely you want to marry off your daughters (or even sons). This is classic Darwinism at work. The more hardcore you are about fundie-dom, the more likely you are to remove your children from the gene pool.

I disagree. Fundies are not new and there a plenty of people who share thier believes. Many of the families we follow associate with other large families. There are isolated from our world, but they attend fundie conference and have fellowship with like minded families. There are even sites that connect like minded families. Despite all of this SAHDs and SAHSs have become a problem.

[Bethella]

I disagree. Fundies are not new and there a plenty of people who share thier believes. Many of the families we follow associate with other large families. There are isolated from our world, but they attend fundie conference and have fellowship with like minded families. There are even sites that connect like minded families. Despite all of this SAHDs and SAHSs have become a problem.

I think the problem is not finding another fundy family, but in finding another fundy family whose beliefs match yours exactly. We've seen in a couple of cases where a "stricter" fundy man has married a fundy-lite woman who converts to full fundism after the marriage. But with a woman from these stricter families, the patriarch will insist on the potential groom meeting his religious standards, they almost certainly wouldn't accept a fundy-lite man as a potential groom and when it comes to the full fundies there just aren't going to be that many out there who will match their particular cookie cutter exactly.

[knitwit]

I think the problem is not finding another fundy family, but in finding another fundy family whose beliefs match yours exactly.

This. I was thinking as I was reading through the responses that there's also the matter of there being a couple different "factions" in fundiedom, and while it's not like there's some kind of feud between them, there are different requirements/beliefs. Some approve of sports, some don't, some allow even less reading material than others, some think any kind of fun is sinful... Especially when it comes to a daughter marrying, I could see where these "I know everything" patriarchal fathers might have problems marrying them off, because what does it say about them and their beliefs if they let their daughter marry someone who is (comparatively, at least) more relaxed in their rules?

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

I think there's also the infantilization of those SAHDs. I have a friend who unwittingly does this to her eldest daughter - her kids are 11, 8, 4 and 2, and the oldest is supposed to enjoy the activities that are really for the littles. This child is having real trouble relating to her peers because when she suggests an activity, it's something like play doh. Nothing wrong with play doh, but the other girls generally want something more sleepover and gossip related. As I said her mother doesn't do this on purpose, but if she's going to do activities for the kids, she's going to make them for the littles. Her mother also doesn't let her do age appropriate things. At 11, bath time should not be with all the other kids, and she should pick our her own clothes, within reason. I find it hard to talk to the mother about this, so I just generally let the kid in question hang out at our house as much as she wants.

I can imagine having 10 or 13 kids and the SAHDs being trained to enjoy little kid activities, and the mothers, even when the kids are older, have trouble seeing their daughters as grown adults. Especially when women are thought to be a step above children anyway.

My aunt does that with my cousins. Though she has no excuse, he's an only child. My sister and I got him Legos for Christmas since he's 7 now. She replaced the Legos with those big Lego like blocks meant for 3 year olds. His toys are ALL rated for 18 months through 3 year olds. I think this is becoming a problem all over the place. My mom's a middle school teacher and some of her students are so stunted compared to their friends because their parents still treat them like they're small children. A few years ago, she went to DC with her students and one of the students got separated from the group and honestly could not figure out what he should do about it.

[Closed Womb]

A part of me wonders if there is a shortage of Fundie men in kind of the same way that there is a shortage of Christian men in most church singles groups.

Although we really haven't seen this with high profile Fundies, it seems to me that financial success and generally making a living in the outside world might lead young men to do exactly what people like Steve and Jim Bob fear: stray. I mean, once sheltered people see others enjoying life, having some privacy, etc., they might just quietly take to their paid off houses and find a mainstream Christian girl on their own terms. At some point they HAVE to realize that God is not smiting people who go to the grocery store without chaperones, attend college, and have roommates who aren't blood relatives, right?

[Closed Womb]

I realized I did not actually address the topic: yes, it totally defeats the purpose.

And it reminds me of "normal" young adults who expect to start off in life where their parents ended up. Many don't save, overextend themselves financially, etc., because they do not want to take a step "down." With fundies, it is the parents who are stubborn. Instead of letting their children find their own ways, they make them start off with their (the parents) level of fundie-ness. Just one example: while people like Jim Bob and Michelle were allowed to rent their homes, their son's and prospective sons-in-law are to have paid off houses before they marry.

[So Many Lies]

I think they want other people's daughters to marry their sons. They want to keep control over their daughters. This is pretty much a first generation group. They say in "words", but when faced with adult daughters, they are not willing to give up control.

Hell, yes. They guard the daughters very jealously. Gets on my nerves that's for sure. It's like the parents are allowed to have sex, get married etc. It does make me question their motives. I mean, isn't the wheel meant to turn for their daughters too? But it seems not. It's so much about control and a controlled environment.

They don't get that if you love someone they can get a little dirty and you can still love them.

[pixydust]

I think that part of the problem might be that it's harder for these young men to be in a marriagable situation. They must own their own business, have a paid off and furnished house and vehicle, and be able to support a large family. If they are in a fundie heavy area or are the 4th or 5th son, they can't do it. How many car lots, towing servises, tree cutters, lawn services or prison ministers can one area handle? So they have to wait until they are older, saving their money.

Maybe this is why the Arndts aren't married....maybe the court reporting business can't support them all, so no one makes enough money to move out.