Teen sues parents over forced abortion

[2xx1xy1JD]

To me, being pro-choice means just that - supporting the idea that the woman who is pregnant is the one who chooses what to do with her body. Period. As I've said on previous threads, I oppose government interference with my body.

Those reasons for being pro-choice have nothing to do with encouraging a teen daughter to have an abortion.

In my particular neighborhood, teen pregnancy is very rare, college attendance rates are high, and so there is already social pressure against having a baby early. There would be no need for me to add to that, at that particular time when she would be emotionally vulnerable. The kids already know my thoughts on ideal timing of babies.

Ideally, I would want to be there to support her in any decision, and to be a resource. I'd encourage her to think through and help her research different scenarios, so that the decision would truly be hers, and she would be at peace with whatever she decided. The odds of her having regrets, or blaming me, would be far higher if she felt that it was MY decision and not hers. It's a big decision, and there are potential consequences to each choice. I agree with OKTBT that I would not be able to prevent my child from ever being exposed to anti-abortion views, so it would be important for her to feel confident about whatever decision she makes, and to really own her choice.

[if the issue came up with a child with limited mental capacity or with a very young girl (I have a child who got her period when she turned 8), it would be different, and I would make the decision to abort.]

[Rosa]

There's pressure and there's pressure. Saying "I think this is a really bad idea but we're here for you regardless" is one thing. Threatening to withdraw financial support (which many parents do to a pregnant daughter, regardless if they're wanting her to have the baby or not have it) or ACTUALLY throwing a teen out into the street - something that was ridiculously common where I grew up, in that a town with 20k people usually had all 8 or 10 beds in the teen shelter full - or threatening or using violence, or telling her she's going to hell, are coercion just as much as the awful parents on the original post here.

Just advocating is different. Some kids will take that as a lot of pressure, because some kids are pleasers at heart, but they're going to try to read your wishes anyway.

[valsa]

I have not seen many rallies, anti-tattoo poster boards or demonstrations designed to make the person feel morally reprehensible.

My mother made a half-hearted attempt, when I first came out to her, to plead with me to be straight for the same reasons as you're saying I shouldn't encourage an abortion, so I'm pretty "meh" when it comes to that line of thought. And while there can be societal backlash against abortion, there's also a (perhaps a bit more subtle) backlash against teen parenthood (particularly when it comes to the girls) The stigma of teen motherhood has decreased in a lot of places but it has, by no means, disappeared altogether with.

The kids already know my thoughts on ideal timing of babies.

You bring up a good point, 2xx1xy1JD. It's likely I wouldn't be required to strongly advocate for an abortion with my child because they'll already know my views on teen parenthood.

[OkToBeTakei]

My mother made a half-hearted attempt, when I first came out to her, to plead with me to be straight for the same reasons as you're saying I shouldn't encourage an abortion, so I'm pretty "meh" when it comes to that line of thought. And while there can be societal backlash against abortion, there's also a (perhaps a bit more subtle) backlash against teen parenthood (particularly when it comes to the girls) The stigma of teen motherhood has decreased in a lot of places but it has, by no means, disappeared altogether with.

You bring up a good point, 2xx1xy1JD. It's likely I wouldn't be required to strongly advocate for an abortion with my child because they'll already know my views on teen parenthood.

As usual Valsa you pick out just a small part of a quote without addressing the other points.

As to the bolded. That is what most responsible parents wish for but unfortunately is no guarantee, which kind of brings the discussion back to the what if and hypothetical of how as a parent you/I would react in the event it did happen.

[valsa]

As usual Valsa you pick out just a small part of a quote without addressing the other points.

Cute.

Fine, you want me to address your post point-by-point? Here goes!

For some as in the OP it is a regret. For others it is not. I have no idea of knowing what my daughter's view would be as a 30 year old.

Not addressed because it's already been answered:

I'd rather she resent me because she felt pressured than for her to end up a teenage mother, which would put her and my grandchild at higher risk for poverty, un/underemployment, and not being able to pursue higher education. Also, if she's not mature enough to choose parenting or adoption, if she wants it, over an abortion encouraged by her parents, I wouldn't consider her mature enough to be able to deal with all the decisions she'd have to make as a parent anyway.

Next?

One thing I do know is that taking in to account how polarising abortion is in society and how that can influence subconsciously how we then view ourselves, right or wrong as this is. It does not equate in any way to tattoos or time of schooling and certainly not as potentially psychologically damaging.

As far as I am aware snobbery will dictate other's views of your tattoos and education but I have not seen many rallies, anti-tattoo poster boards or demonstrations designed to make the person feel morally reprehensible.

Already directly answered, though your point was pared down for brevity’s sake:

My mother made a half-hearted attempt, when I first came out to her, to plead with me to be straight for the same reasons as you're saying I shouldn't encourage an abortion, so I'm pretty "meh" when it comes to that line of thought.

If you need me to elaborate more, is “the fact people might try to make you feel bad about doing or being something isn’t a good reason to not do or be that thing†acceptable? It’s pretty universal- abortion, homosexuality, atheism, feminism, etc.

Anything else?

Would it be easier to be a young single Mother? No that would come with the same type of judgement. But for me it would be important to visit ALL of these issues with my child.

Not addressed because it's not relevant. Nowhere in this thread have I ever said I wouldn't review all my child's options with them.

Is my thoroughness adequate to meet your personal standards this time?

[2xx1xy1JD]

Exactly. Like I said, my kids ALREADY know that I expect them to go to university, and that I think that the ideal time to have babies is when you are in a loving, respectful and committed relationship where at least one person has a decent income.

If one of them got pregnant as a teen, they would know that I wouldn't see it as the ideal scenario. The real question in their minds would be, "how will mom and dad react?"

Rosa: I know that some places seem to have a culture of throwing pregnant teens out of the house, but I'll never understand it. I remember women on one of my Babycenter boards practically bragging that they would do this, and I was appalled. Yes, I understand that it would be a heavy burden for some families - but this is your own kid! It's crystal clear to me from all of my teen mom cases that family support makes all the difference. Teens who have it can finish school and get a decent career, while having a safe place to live and decent food. Teens who don't have it end up in shelters, often don't finish school, and in a fair number of my cases ended up doing some sort of sex work (because dancing naked pays better than flipping burgers). Why wouldn't a parent want the best for their daughter and grandchild? Also, that teen mom wouldn't be living at home forever. What happens 5 or 10 years down the road? I can't imagine that the teen who finds herself alone and pregnant on the street is going to have a fabulous relationship with the parents who turned their backs on her. Something for them to think about as they're alone in the old age home, watching as other people have kids and grandkids visiting.

[Miggy]

Many people are commenting about teenage mums ending up in poverty. I think maybe this is where it is a cultural difference between the US and Australia that influences my opinion.

Government support here for low income families is very generous, both as direct payments and as subsidies for things like childcare. Universal healthcare means never having to worry about medical bills. University fees can all be deferred. (A government interest free loan called "HECS" means you don't start repaying your fees until you reach a certain income level.) TAFE fees are only charged to those earning above a certain income level (or whose parents earn above a certain level, depending on your age). For all these reasons, having a baby while in your teens is no reason to end up in poverty.

Nine girls in my year at school had babies before completing high school. Some have done very well. Some have done very badly. The same could be said of those of us who didn't have kids. I wouldn't use poverty as a reason to keep or abort a baby. However, from what I understand of the American system, this would be a major concern and something that a prospective mother should consider.

[OkToBeTakei]

Valsa

:shock:

I was alluding to your comments about tattoos and education and equating them to abortion.

You discounted my comment on the same, based on your mother's reaction to your sexuality. Sexuality is not a choice. So no I did not understand your point. Abortion IS a choice as is choosing to be a teen mother in that situation.

Possibly you snipping posts to you, may indicate brevity. To me at times it looks confusing and misleading. Your choice I suppose. I prefer to quote an opinion wholly and in context.

[2xx1xy1JD]

My mother made a half-hearted attempt, when I first came out to her, to plead with me to be straight for the same reasons as you're saying I shouldn't encourage an abortion, so I'm pretty "meh" when it comes to that line of thought. And while there can be societal backlash against abortion, there's also a (perhaps a bit more subtle) backlash against teen parenthood (particularly when it comes to the girls) The stigma of teen motherhood has decreased in a lot of places but it has, by no means, disappeared altogether with.

How did you feel when your mother did that?

Presumably, she had your best interests at heart and was legitimately thinking that it would be hard for you. Did you appreciate that concern, or would you have really preferred to have her support?

[BravaAmica]

I'd love to see Planned Parenthood step in to provide her with support.

I don't see any reason why they wouldn't. They could certainly put her in touch with resources available to her int he community, as well as provide prenatal care for her. (The Planned Parenthood in my hometown did prenatal care for some Medicaid patients. They also liased with some adoption agencies in my town, in addition to providing well woman care and aboriton.)

[valsa]

I was alluding to your comments about tattoos and education and equating them to abortion.

You discounted my comment on the same, based on your mother's reaction to your sexuality. Sexuality is not a choice. So no I did not understand your point. Abortion IS a choice as is choosing to be a teen mother in that situation.

Let's establish a timeline here- I compared tattoos and quitting school with abortion in the context that expressing one’s opinion about them to your child is just a matter of parenting. You responded with two points- that abortion isn't as reversible as a tattoo and quitting school, and that advocating for either having an abortion and choosing to parent have possibly damaging consequences (neither of which really address MY point, by the way, because it doesn’t provide evidence for why parenting shouldn’t include giving opinions about things just because they’re non-reversible or have possible negative consequences- do we really need to bring circumcision into a thread already this loaded?) I addressed the issue of reversibility but not the second point because I don't disagree with it. You brought up the fact people might try to make someone who has had an abortion feel bad. I pointed out that society tries to make people feel bad about a lot of things so, to me, that's not a significant enough reason to not advocate for what I feel is the better long-term choice for my child.

And while homosexuality is not a choice- it is a choice to engage in homosexual relationships and be openly gay. If my child were gay, I would also encourage them to be open about it, despite the social stigma against it, because I feel that not hiding homosexuality is better and healthier in the long run (kinda like not being a teen mom)

Possibly you snipping posts to you, may indicate brevity. To me at times it looks confusing and misleading. Your choice I suppose. I prefer to quote an opinion wholly and in context.

And I prefer not to quote things that I've already answered before or that are not relevant to what we're discussing (ie- try giving me better points and I might actually quote them all... )

ETA: Also, though I would encourage my gay child to be openly gay, I wouldn't do so as strongly as encouraging my pregnant daughter to get an abortion. I personally feel the negatives to being a teen mom are worse than the negatives of being a non-openly gay teen and that the stigma of homosexuality (which would be directed personally at my child, likely by his peers) is worse than the stigma of abortion (which may be demonized by certain segments of the population, but they aren't ones my child would likely be exposed to in a personal way)

[Minerva]

It's really awesome that she's suing her parents. People being given shit for trying to force someone to abort is very pro-choice. Unfortunately, you know anti-choice groups are going to jump on this, appropriate her struggle, act like her parents are the pinnacle of pro-choiceness, pretend that this is somehow an argument against Planned Parenthood, go on about the girl's right to choose parenthood and not even see the irony.

Oh, and if I had a pregnant teen, I'd explain why I would abort if I was in their shoes and why it's statistically most likely to be the best option for them, but make it clear that I will support them (to the best of my financial ability, anyway) regardless of what they do. If I was pregnant as a teen, I would probably have asked my parents what they thought I should do, not because I would be willing to do whatever they suggest, but because my parents have always been the first people I asked for advice when facing a big decision.

Each option has the potential to be damaging, but abortion is the least likely to cause problems of any kind, so if my kid seemed undecided I'd definitely encourage it. No use putting my two cents in if they've already decided, however. If they've decided they want to give birth, I don't want them to choose differently just for me.

Really, though, stuff like this is why I don't plan on having kids at all.

[Mama Mia]

I understand the concern with having a harder life, etc.. but the problem I have with considering the statistics when making decisions is that it really would apply in too many areas that are better governed by other factors. Statistically any brown or black male children are more likely to be poor , in jail or not complete their education - but I wouldn't dissuade my child from producing a brown or black child based on that.

[Blahblah]

^^um, what? We're discussing giving your pregnant daughter the best advice you can. I would be primarily concerned at that stage about my daughter's well-being and future. The bunch of cells that was causing the issue in the first place wouldn't be my concern at all unless, despite my advice, a decision was made to keep it.

And whether the baby was to be black, brown, or purple with green spots would not be a factor in that decision making process.

[valsa]

I understand the concern with having a harder life, etc.. but the problem I have with considering the statistics when making decisions is that it really would apply in too many areas that are better governed by other factors.

I think it's nice you have the luxury of not considering statistics.

[Mama Mia]

I think it's nice you have the luxury of not considering statistics.

How is that a luxury ? Did you consider that statistically you might be subjected to harassment if you are open in your relationships when you decided to be open ? Even if you looked up the statistics -was it a major factor in that decision ?

If statistically you stand the best chance of home ownership, not being a crime victim, not getting divorced, being able to retire in good health meant that you should become a government accountant who marries at 32 and lives in a suburb of Wisconsin - does that mean you would choose that ?

Obviously those are made up statistics, and overly specific - but really, how many big life decisions are based on statistics ?

[lilith]

I really don't think that many women regret teenage abortions, and I know a lot of women regret choosing to parent as a teenager.

The only women I have ever heard vocally denounce their teenage abortions are women who go on to become very conservative Christians or to suffer from infertility.

I would consider a daughter if mine becoming a conservative Christian far more of a concern than her having a teen pregnancy and abortion, and secondary infertility is going to be a struggle wether she aborted or not.

Maybe I'm very lucky to live in a more liberal country, but I am quite open about the abortion I had at 21, and I have received little to no negativity and a lot of support.

I would hope that my daughter would have a good enough grounding in the areas of biology and foetal development not to fall for anti choice propaganda, and that she would have enough autonomy to ask for my advice but to choose to do what was right for her.

I really do think that abortion is the right decision for the majority of teenage pregnancies. We just don't hear from the women who aborted, dealt with it, and moved on with their lives cause they don't define themselves by that pregnancy and abortion. We only hear from the women who regret it or had a hard time dealing with it cause they are the ones who need to talk about it and work through it.

[Mama Mia]

I strongly disagree - I think in liberal areas, at least, or at least in my area ,you are far less likely to hear from women who regretted their abortions - because it just isn't a socially acceptable thing to say.

I know several other women who regret having had an abortion - I know several other's who don't regret it at all. None with either opinion are conservative - Christian or otherwise. I would think you would be far less likely to talk about having had an abortion whatever your current feelings if you were a conservative Christian - because of being looked down upon.

I wouldn't go around vocally denouncing it in public though - personally- because I don't talk about it in public at all- it is way too emotional for me, and I'm not someone who likes to talk about my personal life in "real life" in general. I barely talk about it with a few people who I am very close to.

It is interesting that you bring up fetal development. I had my abortion while enrolled in Health class in High School, very unfortunately they covered pregnancy and birth right after the abortion. It was seeing the photos of 10 -12 week fetuses that really pushed me over the edge. I know many people describe them as not looking "human" - but I found they looked much, much more human and like a baby than what I had been led to believe. I truly pictured a "clump of cells". It was very, very traumatic for me. I had already felt pushed into a decision I didn't want, and was extremely depressed - and seeing those pictures made me feel not only horrible, but lied to.

I think I might try to step away from this thread, it is really triggering me. But, I kind of suck at stepping away - so we'll see.

ETA: My parents were of the "strongly advocate for" type - they wouldn't have kicked me out or anything horrible.

[OkToBeTakei]

I really don't think that many women regret teenage abortions, and I know a lot of women regret choosing to parent as a teenager.

The only women I have ever heard vocally denounce their teenage abortions are women who go on to become very conservative Christians or to suffer from infertility.

I would consider a daughter if mine becoming a conservative Christian far more of a concern than her having a teen pregnancy and abortion, and secondary infertility is going to be a struggle wether she aborted or not.

Maybe I'm very lucky to live in a more liberal country, but I am quite open about the abortion I had at 21, and I have received little to no negativity and a lot of support.

I would hope that my daughter would have a good enough grounding in the areas of biology and foetal development not to fall for anti choice propaganda, and that she would have enough autonomy to ask for my advice but to choose to do what was right for her.

I really do think that abortion is the right decision for the majority of teenage pregnancies. We just don't hear from the women who aborted, dealt with it, and moved on with their lives cause they don't define themselves by that pregnancy and abortion. We only hear from the women who regret it or had a hard time dealing with it cause they are the ones who need to talk about it and work through it.

I think this is the issue really. I don't think it accurate to say most teens don't or do regret their decisions without essentially speaking to them all. It is human nature to use one's own experience to view an issue. Personally I have 3 friends who had abortions as teens 2 regret, 1 does not. But again that is just my own experience. Neither are Conservative christian or have fertility issues.

I suspect that would colour their view should their daughters become pregnant. It is human nature.

I do also wonder if at times during this type of discussion cultural differences also confuse the issue. For example where I live 'teen mother' does not automatically equate to poverty and or lack of education opportunities. It is far from ideal though.

The issue for me is 'strongly advocate.' I would strongly present all the facts both positive and negative and their future consequences. Ultimately I would want it to be my daughter's decision not one that in any way was influenced by my parental role.

This thread would actually make good reading for that very reason.

[meda]

This has been an interesting thread. Where people talk about regret fascinates me, because a factor like regret would be by alien to my decision making process. Maybe it's how I was raised, but I w brought up with the idea that of course people will have regret in life, and some choices will make you happier than others, but that doesn't mean you make a bad decision simply because it will make you happy in the short term. There are decisions I have made in my past that were difficult, some I regret, but I enjoy my current reality far more than spending time worrying about "what if". I am one of those sad women who have had an abortion and dealt with infertility. While I am currently pregnant, even if I never had a child of my own, it would not make the fact that I terminated a pregnancy when I was much younger and not in a financial position to raise a child a bad decision.

My belief is that long term goals and achievement are simply more important than short term happiness. As I mentioned, when I look around me at my extended family, I see people who made choices for their own short term gratification, and the result was a lot of long term struggle and hardship for themselves and the people around them. I think such decision making is selfish, and I will not encourage my kid to make selfish decisions.

Also, Mrs. S2004, I'm sorry this thread is triggering for you, and I certainly dont think you are a govnment leech. Rather, it sounds like you were samrt in getting all the assistance you could. I would point out that when you belittle the statistical reality of most teenage mothers, your are refusing to acknowledge that the assistance you received from the government simply does not exist anymore in most places. There is no subsidized housing in my area that would be safe for a young mother and baby. Since welfare reform, most benefits are limited and there are work requirements attached to assistance. I don't know any single mothers who are able to receive benefits and go to school full time.

[valsa]

Did you consider that statistically you might be subjected to harassment if you are open in your relationships when you decided to be open ? Even if you looked up the statistics -was it a major factor in that decision ?

Not as a teenager but they certainly are now.

For instance, I'm not out at work precisely because I can't afford to lose my job due to my sexuality (statistically far more likely for homosexuals than heterosexuals)

[valsa]

The issue for me is 'strongly advocate.' I would strongly present all the facts both positive and negative and their future consequences. Ultimately I would want it to be my daughter's decision not one that in any way was influenced by my parental role.

This issue boils down to the fact that I disagree with this stance. I believe a parent's role is to influence their children when it comes to making the best decision for themselves. Give them all the facts and their options, with pros and cons of each? Sure. But they're certainly going to know which option I think is best and why. Again, I consider that the duty of a parent.

[Minerva]

I think this is the issue really. I don't think it accurate to say most teens don't or do regret their decisions without essentially speaking to them all. It is human nature to use one's own experience to view an issue. Personally I have 3 friends who had abortions as teens 2 regret, 1 does not. But again that is just my own experience. Neither are Conservative christian or have fertility issues.

I suspect that would colour their view should their daughters become pregnant. It is human nature.

I do also wonder if at times during this type of discussion cultural differences also confuse the issue. For example where I live 'teen mother' does not automatically equate to poverty and or lack of education opportunities. It is far from ideal though.

The issue for me is 'strongly advocate.' I would strongly present all the facts both positive and negative and their future consequences. Ultimately I would want it to be my daughter's decision not one that in any way was influenced by my parental role.

This thread would actually make good reading for that very reason.

Actually, all you'd have to do to know whether or not most teens regret their abortions is take a randomized, statistically significant sampling of people who've had abortions as teens and do a study on them. I can only find one study specific to teens. Only 23 of its subjects were teens who had abortions, and the only parameter relevant to this discussion was whether they thought they had made the right decision. Overall, these teens did think they made the right decision, but this was 4 weeks post-abortion. Not only is 23 too small a sample number, but multiple studies have found that women's feelings about their abortions evolve in the months and years afterwards. And that's the only study I can find.

Statistically, teens are less likely to have subsequent mental health problems if they abort a pregnancy than if they carry to term, but regret is not a mental health problem, and is therefore not touched on by these studies. It's also not a clear-cut thing to study. You can regret something and know that you made the right decision.

Among abortion patients in general, short-term and long-term regret is only experienced by a minority of them, although it is a big enough minority to warrant concern from clinic counsellors. I've heard many people say that most of the people they know who are open about their abortions say they regret them. It's odd that so many people's anecdata clashes with the results of studies. If you ask me, I think it's because it isn't socially acceptable to say you were ok with having an abortion. This is consistent with the fact that many people who write about their abortions anonymously say they're afraid to admit IRL that they don't feel bad about it.

Most of the papers I've read on post-abortion experiences name coercion as an important cause of negative after-effects, including regret. This is why I would be very careful not to put pressure on my hypothetical teenager. But it doesn't always work out that way. Remember the Jezebel article awhile ago about an actrice who basically said "my parents forced me to have an abortion I didn't want, but now I'm glad they did"? It's about knowing which behaviour has the best chances of producing the most positive outcome, and choosing that behaviour. If the teen is undecided and asking for advice, the safest thing to do is say you think they should abort. If the teen has decided they don't want to abort, pressuring them into having an abortion is probably the most likely to cause problems for them.

[Blahblah]

" If the teen has decided they don't want to abort, pressuring them into having an abortion is probably the most likely to cause problems for them."

In the short term maybe. But when they have the benefit of hindsight this may change. What seems like a horrible idea at 14 or 16 or even 20 looks very different at 30 or 40.

And are the problems caused for them by influencing them into an abortion going to be easier to handle than the problems caused by allowing a teen to become a parent?

This is one of this things that can never be known. You can't have both outcomes in the same teen at the same time to compare.

But personally I'd rather my daughter dealt with the outcome of an abortion than the outcome of being responsible for an entire brand new human being for the rest of her life.

[Minerva]

" If the teen has decided they don't want to abort, pressuring them into having an abortion is probably the most likely to cause problems for them."

In the short term maybe. But when they have the benefit of hindsight this may change. What seems like a horrible idea at 14 or 16 or even 20 looks very different at 30 or 40.

And are the problems caused for them by influencing them into an abortion going to be easier to handle than the problems caused by allowing a teen to become a parent?

This is one of this things that can never be known. You can't have both outcomes in the same teen at the same time to compare.

But personally I'd rather my daughter dealt with the outcome of an abortion than the outcome of being responsible for an entire brand new human being for the rest of her life.

I haven't seen any evidence that regret caused by coercion is statistically likely to improve as the years go by. Negative emotions towards an abortion tend to become more negative as the years go by, but it could be that the ones specifically caused by coercion are the opposite.

I do generally agree with you, though. We know that teens tend to do better socio-economically, health-wise, mental health-wise and presumably emotionally when they terminate an unplanned pregnancy than when they carry it to term. We also know that a decision to abort made under a certain amount of pressure makes them more likely to do badly emotionally and possibly mental health-wise. We don't know whether the emotional/mental health problems caused by a coerced abortion would overshadow the socioeconomic and health benefits of having an abortion in a specific teen, but we also don't know whether they would be worse than the emotional/mental health problems associated with carrying an unplanned pregnancy to term. We don't know the statistical chances, and we certainly can't predict the outcome for a particular teen.

I myself would err on the side of caution, lay out the facts, and trust that the teen will consider those while deciding which action will be easiest on them. And hope that they're analytical like me and not hot-headed like some of their relatives. That's what's nice about not having kids, though. The only uterus I have to worry about is my own.