Prosperity gospel and fundies

[YPestis]

I'm curious if people know if Vision Forum, Gothard or any of the other fundie groups openly their version of the prosperity gospels? We know that many fundies advocate a "pull 'em up by the bootstraps" mentality which would segue nicely into prosperity theology. However, many fundies are also themselves quite poor, so it seems this type of thinking would be difficult for some to digest. Has anyone been known any fundie to say that God will materially bless those that are good Christians?

[Soldier of the One]

I think it's pretty self-evident that they do believe that. And by propagating that in subtle or not-so-subtle ways, they are - ironically - giving hope to their poorest contingency.

We lefties call it 'false consciousness' :) (Where is JFC when you need her?)

[Buzzard]

When I hear "prosperity gospel" I think Eddie Long, Creflo Dollar, Benny Hinn and the other snake oil salesman that demand tithing from their poor subjects parishioners who constantly bang the "robbing god" bullshit so they can have bigger houses and more cars.

I dont know that dougie is quite in that league. He doesnt promise his people success and blessings by donating to him. Shockingly, I hold him above the thieves that I perceive Eddie Long et al to be.

[Soldier of the One]

I think there can be shades of grey when it comes to prosperity gospel. The Eddie Long/snake oil types might be the most blatant offender but... just any theology that very explicitly defies theodicy ('why bad things happen to good people') and believes in an actual, physical reward/blessing is prosperity theology up to a degree. Even the Quiverfull aspect has its prosperity theology overtones: after all, God opens and closes the womb right? Therefore, you are either deserving or undeserving of your fertility blessings!

And yes, this stuff appears in the Bible... and fecundity often appears right next to 'material fecundity' (wealth). In an agricultural society, that kind of made sense: if your wife was fertile, your crops were growing and your livestock was breeding, you were a 'blessed' man. Now that translates into some aspect of prosperity theology I think.

I can't even imagine struggling with infertility issues in that community. The implicit shaming and blaming must be intense in some parts.

[fundiemental]

Remember the "Prayer of Jabez" book fad in the early 2000s? I think that was prosperity-related.

(Side note: I'm baffled that there are no Duggar boys named Jabez).

[EmiGirl]

Remember the "Prayer of Jabez" book fad in the early 2000s? I think that was prosperity-related.

(Side note: I'm baffled that there are no Duggar boys named Jabez).

I've read this book several times. It teaches that God wants to bless you, but points out that his blessings aren't always in the form of monetary wealth.

[rewoodley]

I've read this book several times. It teaches that God wants to bless you, but points out that his blessings aren't always in the form of monetary wealth.

Wasn't it also something like not asking for the right things? or assuming that God would just give you everything (which is pritty much what the fundies seem to do)?

[Soldier of the One]

Also part of their prosperity theology is very much the idea that 'God gave me X, Y or Z' (like a dress, a good bargain or a new baby). The flip side of that thinking is that when you don't get those things, God purposely withholds them from you. And He might withhold them out of punishment or disapproval, just like blessings (no matter how minute) flow from approval.

Gratitude for the blessings and good things in life is one thing. Thinly-veiled self-righteousness is quite another. Part of theological humility I think is simply admitting that you get a lucky break sometimes and that in this inexplicable universe of ours, horrible things happen for reasons we cannot fathom... or no reason at all.

[salsa]

My impression is that what marks the snake oil version of prosperity gospel is the overlooking of when things *don't* work out in accordance with the prosperity set-up. The Benny Hinn, et al, gospel is "The Power of Positive Thinking" on steroids. Just keep thinking positive and add "yet" to the blessings you're awaiting. For example, "God hasn't blessed me with a limousine .... yet." "I don't have a mansion ... yet." There is a belief that crosses from theology into magic* that if peoople just "put it out there" or "speak it," (they bastardize a scripture from James about the power of the tongue) that whatever they speak will come true. That way, there never is failure.

Fundies, at least the type we talk about here, acknowledge hardship and recognize (at least within their theology) the potential for God to say, "no" to any petition. While it's true that children and material goods are considered to be blessings from God, it lacks that "yet" type of theology.

There is also a difference in that the first seeks material goods (and, as someone mentioned a couple posts up, Wilkerson made this more mainstream with "The Prayer of Jabez") and luxury, while the second seeks spiritual blessings. The first looks forward to fun, or at least the avoidance of negativity, and the latter looks foward to serve and following the letter of the law - with spankings and making food s-t-r-e-t-c-h thrown in.

Of course, the argument can be made that they're both essentially receiving a reward for good behavior. Still, I see a difference. I'm just having a bit of trouble describing it.

*Yes, I realize that many on here think that all belief in God is like believing in magic, but I'm trying to delineate spiritual beliefs that are commonly held within a world religion - in this case, Christianity - from the extreme that takes it to a level that is like a magic act. And, incidentally, I'm not intending to defend fundy theology; they, too, bastardize components of scripture and use them to manipulate people. It's just that they manipulate their children whereas prosperity manipulates whoever isn't smart enough to avoid buying snake oil. ....... I just read "The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn" for the first time and I want to call the prosperity gospel, The Royal Nonesuch. A lot of promise, little-to-no delivery. Fundyism delivers what it promises - drudgery, authoritarianism, and the insistence that everyone in it is loving it. ....

[Soldier of the One]

Salsa, very eloquently put!

The difference between magic and faith is a degree of manipulation. In general, the faithful doesn't believe that they can manipulate Deity: the magical thinker does. That's one of the reasons why magic is deemed idolatrous in classical theological thought. Ironically, there is a strong magical element to prosperity theology.

And yes, I'd like to differentiate between a classical definition of magic and the spiritual magick of the neo-pagan community. I think those two are very different practices.