The Botkins on 'Brave' (Doug's Blog)

[Soldier of the One]

Disclaimer: I have not seen the movie 'Brave' so I can't make a 100% assessment of it but I am sure it follows a pretty standard 'modern' Disney story-line with a girl/princess who has a bit more agency and spunk.

Having said that: what is it with fundies and 'Brave'? There has been analysis after analysis, polemic after polemic posted on the fundie blogosphere concerning that film. And of course, the Botkins are milking it for what it's worth on Doug's Blog:

visionforum.com/news/blogs/doug/default.aspx

Basically, the blog post is about how the four adult Botkin children share their perspectives on 'Brave' through their own convoluted ideology. I really don't understand why they make such a big deal out of this one movie that represents all the downfalls of 'the culture' to them. As Christians, couldn't they focus on more pressing issues... like hunger, poverty, war, crisis, starvation, abuse, rape or Cause X, Y or Z?

Anyway, this is some of the arguments they raise:

Geoff Botkin said, “I often get asked, ‘Can I never sit down and enjoy a movie?’ My response is this: ‘Do you want to delight in something that God hates?†We will see in the course of this enchanting, inspiring movie a plot, an attitude that God hates. You are commanded to hate evil and love the Lord.

Wow. Buzzkill.

Anna Sofia Botkin said, “This film is not breaking stereotypes. There is nothing unfeminine about climbing mountains, riding horses and shooting arrows. The biblical model for femininity is bigger than what the world thinks the biblical model is. Nowhere but the Bible do you find women who will kill men with tent pegs who can also cook and sew. Until Hollywood gives us a princess who can do all those things, Hollywood has not given us a true princess!â€

Really? Is this the 'sturdy womanhood' phenomenon? If all these 'masculine' traits aren't deemed unfeminine, then why the railing against feminism and more flexible gender roles? Seems to me they want to have their cake and eat it too. The leadership and agency of some Biblical women was far more permissive/egalitarian than what modern fundamentalist standards dictate. But I am sure they have exegetical tricks to get out of that theological conundrum.

Geoff Botkin said, “Merida, the princess, in Brave is running away from responsibility, truth and maturity. Despite the beautiful imagery and animation, the theme features pure, radical, Satanic feminism.

Satanic feminism? :twisted: Such ad hominem, hyperbole statements will only weaken his own argument by casting it in an ill-conceived light.

“Throughout the film, men are portrayed as children. The Queen has to be the adult in the room because they never will be. She is pulling her husband, the king, by the ears. The women have to rule by default. How many women are prime ministers throughout the world today?â€

This is just odd and I am not really sure I get the reasoning. In the film, women rule by default which to the Botkin worldview is a bad thing. But then it is followed by 'how many women are prime ministers today?' Do the Botkins decry the leadership of women? Or the lack of leadership of women in today's world? I can't imagine it being the latter. So surely, they must be commenting on the inate inability of women to lead? Taken out of context, one might be (for a mere split second) inclined to think that they were lamenting the lack of opportunities for women to have high-powered political careers. The syntax is confusing.

Mr. Botkin once suggested that a sobering t-shirt might declare, “Do not suffer a witch to live†which is the command in Scripture.

Is he for real? If he follows through his own 'theonomic' statement, does that mean he's advocating for capital punishment for witches?

Benjamin Botkin said, “There are a lot of people who say, ‘We don’t want to make our character to be goody-goody. That would be boring.’ Actually, trying to do things right in the midst of a fallen world — that’s real drama, that’s good drama!

I do sort of agree with this: trying to be decent in a broken world is the real drama and I, for one, love myself a less-cynical, more idealistic depiction of reality in film. But I usually turn to Ken Loach for that.

“Sadly, today the Evangelical Church has let the cool, young hip church leaders decide what the church should do. The adults and the men refuse to lead. By default, the churches are led by women and youth.â€

Ah yes, because we all know that in patriarchy, women are like children: lacking in substance, agency, leadership, responsibility and autonomy. And God forbid, women would lead in the church...

I am usually not much of a snarker but this blog post brought out the snarker even in me. It is confused, pompous, high-brow diatribe.

[justlurking]

The thing that always gets me about the Botkin "children" (and Pa Botkin)and their reviews is that they are all grown ADULTS who waste spend their time analyzing children's movies. Other than movie critics who get paid for their work, I don't know of any other sane adult who spends nearly as much time watching kiddie movies with the intent of trying to find something wrong with them--that isn't really there. These people are true tin foil hat club members! Everything's a conspiracy to them and everything has an ulterior motive of trying to destroy their beliefs.

[MysteryHaggis]

Ditto the disclaimer. That said:

Satanic feminism? :twisted: Such ad hominem, hyperbole statements will only weaken his own argument by casting it in an ill-conceived light.

Sigh.

Margaret Thatcher. Indira Gandhi. Benazir Bhutto. Edith Cresson. Yulia Tymoshenko. Julia Gillard. Etc etc. I'm assuming he means "today" as in "the modern age" and not "this 24 hour period".

All powerful, gamechanging, admirable women (except Thatcher. I'm Scottish, let's not go there.) So, in answer to your question, Geoff, loads. :roll:

I don't know why this film has generated so much polemic either.

Brave is the modern epitome of the fetishisation of Scotland. Merida is probably the least-objectionable thing about it. It's NOT ABOUT PERSECUTING TEH MENZ, Geoff, Botkinettes. It's about a one-dimensional projection of proto-"National" stereotypes with very little relation to historical reality, for the benefit of a culturally powerful audience.

I really, really don't understand the fundiehate Brave gets, as I said. You may as well hate on it for promotion of Scotland, or tartan, or ginger-haired children.

[valsa]

Merida may not have killed someone with a tent peg but she did swordfight her bigger, stronger, and more experienced father to a standstill to protect her mother- and she did a little sewing too!

Even with that, I'm not surprised by the fundie hate. At heart, it's a story about trying to reconcile your personal wants and dreams with the expectations your parents (and, by extension, the world at large) have for you. Fundies hate it because instead of just having a simple, black and white "die to yourself and do what we tell you" moral, the movie portrays the much messier (but realistic) message that says we all have to compromise- people have a responsibility to live up to the expectations placed on them but they should be allowed to do so in their own way and those expectations should leave enough room to pursue reasonable personal goals as well.

[Soldier of the One]

MysteryHaggis: loved the nationalism analysis. Haven't seen the film so didn't think of it on those terms but it makes sense. It's part of the fetishization of 'Old World' cultures that you see quite often in modern media.

Re: female presidents/prime-ministers: well, yes, they are admirable women (except from Thatcher ;)) but they are also a tiny minority given the maleness of world leaders. So in that sense, Geoff is right in his (rather simplistic) observation. Male presidents/prime-ministers far outnumber female ones.

Valsa: trufax. Your analysis actually makes me want to see 'Brave' now! :D

[Closed Womb]

It's been a while since I saw the movie (last July), but from what I remember, it has a plot line of the princess not wanting to marry because she is (1) not ready and (2) not in love/attracted to any of the chosen suitors. Totally reasonable reasons. She wins her right not to marry through a contest (skill and wit, since her Da did not realize she was a contender). Agency! The horror! (Plus the stuff Valsa said upthread)

Disney kind of billed it as a "Princess movie without a Prince." That alone should have sent fundies into fainting spells. No male protection, no white horse, no prince charming, no idolization of all things male and masculine.

Personally, I liked the movie.

[MysteryHaggis]

:lol: Don't get me started on national identities and appropriation, we'd be here all day. My thesis is just a more boring, non-Scotland version of that.

Disney isn't to blame (although, Pocahontas 1995? Bleurgh, prime example)- it's everywhere. And it's shit.

I had forgotten there was no prince, actually. Interesting.

[nokidsmom]

Haven't seen the movie but interesting indeed that there is no prince this time and the heroine stands up to her parents and wins the right to not marry. Can see why fundies would really hate it. Horrors!!

[Artemis]

I really disliked it, but not because Merida goes for her own goals. I liked the fact that she was sporty, feisty, and all that jazz, and that she was pursuing her own goals.

What I didn't like was the way she went about pursuing them: choosing to manipulate and deceive, rather than fight her corner. Instead of using open methods she used 'magic' which then enabled the film to reproduce the stereotypical 'evil witch' figure, showing the post menopausal woman as a vector of evil, deceptive, and a sower of anarchy.

I didn't like the way that her mother's reasonable desire for her to be 'responsible' - that is to grow from girlhood to womanhood, was trivialised by a focus on dressing properly, being a 'lady' and getting married as a mark of adulthood: it was just as misogynistic and sexist in its way as the extremely saccharine femininity of Disney princesses.

I found the film very sexist and stereotypical in its own way: a typical product of an industry that demonises female self-determination. In many ways it reminded me of some Victorian novels, where the heroine's attempts to fight her corner result in a disaster that shows how immature she really is. Oh yes, they dressed it up with a happy ending, but the overall message was still sexist. Merida may have been a 'heroine' but what about the other female characters in the story?

Where was the 'sisterhood' motif, or the women who helped her to self-determine in a mature and non-damaging way?

I sat and snarled right through it, much to the disgust of DD2 who asked me to watch it, because 'the heroine is brave and not a wimp, Mummy.'

The day the film industry produces a really non-sexist and non-stereotypical woman I will eat my bra.

[Wolfie]

I really disliked it, but not because Merida goes for her own goals. I liked the fact that she was sporty, feisty, and all that jazz, and that she was pursuing her own goals.

What I didn't like was the way she went about pursuing them: choosing to manipulate and deceive, rather than fight her corner. Instead of using open methods she used 'magic' which then enabled the film to reproduce the stereotypical 'evil witch' figure, showing the post menopausal woman as a vector of evil, deceptive, and a sower of anarchy.

I didn't like the way that her mother's reasonable desire for her to be 'responsible' - that is to grow from girlhood to womanhood, was trivialised by a focus on dressing properly, being a 'lady' and getting married as a mark of adulthood: it was just as misogynistic and sexist in its way as the extremely saccharine femininity of Disney princesses.

I found the film very sexist and stereotypical in its own way: a typical product of an industry that demonises female self-determination. In many ways it reminded me of some Victorian novels, where the heroine's attempts to fight her corner result in a disaster that shows how immature she really is. Oh yes, they dressed it up with a happy ending, but the overall message was still sexist. Merida may have been a 'heroine' but what about the other female characters in the story?

Where was the 'sisterhood' motif, or the women who helped her to self-determine in a mature and non-damaging way?

I sat and snarled right through it, much to the disgust of DD2 who asked me to watch it, because 'the heroine is brave and not a wimp, Mummy.'

The day the film industry produces a really non-sexist and non-stereotypical woman I will eat my bra.

Okay, so I saw it differently. She tried magic and then realized that it had been a big mistake and she couldn't depend on that and had to learn how to fight for her rights on her own as well as fix her mistakes. Her mother also realized that what she had been trying to force her daughter into wasn't the right thing. I don't think that the old lady was the villian, just a slightly confused old crone. And crones are not a bad thing, in celtic myth, they are to be respected.

I think that you wanted to see it as just another princess movie and so you watched it through that curtain.

[Marian the Librarian]

As Christians, couldn't they focus on more pressing issues... like hunger, poverty, war, crisis, starvation, abuse, rape or Cause X, Y or Z?

This is really the $64K question. But the Botkins' "grown children" (oxymoron, anyone?) haven't been able to break away from worshiping at the church of Daddy Said So.

[urban explorer]

On a side note the Botkins got me hooked on Twilight wth there over analysis and convoluted logic I wanted to see what was so bad. I have found no concrete facts that what I’m reading and watching is as bad as the Botkins have claimed, so thanks to them know I go to bed at night dreaming of my own Edward Cullen. :mrgreen: I will watch Brave know to see what's like, i don't like over anlysising movies kind of ruins the experience.

[valsa]

Valsa: trufax. Your analysis actually makes me want to see 'Brave' now! :D

I would definitely recommend it. I was a little let-down at first (though I still liked it) but later realized that was because, thanks to the trailers, I was expecting a very different movie. The trailer made it look like it was this massive adventure-quest type movie (like LotR but with only Scottish!girl!Legolas instead of the whole fellowship) when it's really a lot more about Merida's internal journey to pass out of childhood and become a young adult. I re-watched it with that in mind and absolutely adored it. It's got a ton of great references to real coming of age experiences. One of my favorites is when Merida stands up to her father when it comes to his irrational hatred of bears (granted, it was to protect her mother) It puts me in mind of when a young adult might have to stand up to their parents when it comes to challenging real life bigotry against gay people or immigrants or people of other religions. That’s probably another reason fundies hate it.

What I didn't like was the way she went about pursuing them: choosing to manipulate and deceive, rather than fight her corner. Instead of using open methods she used 'magic' which then enabled the film to reproduce the stereotypical 'evil witch' figure, showing the post menopausal woman as a vector of evil, deceptive, and a sower of anarchy.

I think we were supposed to have a problem with her trying to use magic to solve her problems, though we're supposed to understand it (and I do) Merida did originally fight in her own defense (the archery competition) and showed a lot of cleverness and skill in doing so. However, seeing as the people in charge (both as her parents and the king and queen) didn't respect the fact that she technically "won" the right to not marry on her own (and I also understand their reasoning as well) she felt cornered and didn't know what to do. The proper adult response would have been to calmly continuing pleading her case, which she eventually, successfully did at the end. The use of magic was shown to be an immature move that was going down the wrong path and had dire consequences. It wouldn't have been much of a coming-of-age movie if she didn't have any character growth to achieve in the first place.

I also don't think we're supposed to believe the witch is evil. She did give Merida exactly what she wanted, even if it wasn't in the way she expected. In fact, I don't think there were any truly evil characters in this film. Even Mordu, who was by far the most sinister character, wasn't straight-forward evil.

I didn't like the way that her mother's reasonable desire for her to be 'responsible' - that is to grow from girlhood to womanhood, was trivialised by a focus on dressing properly, being a 'lady' and getting married as a mark of adulthood: it was just as misogynistic and sexist in its way as the extremely saccharine femininity of Disney princesses.

While I can see it from that point of view, I think the specifics of how they wanted her to be responsible and grown up were less important than the lesson that Merida needed to be more responsible itself. Granted, while having those particular issues be the device used to get the lesson across does perpetuate some tired stereotypes, I struggle to see more appropriate issues to focus on, given the setting of the movie (in real life Merida probably would have been married and at least pregnant by 16 years old)

So while her mother did focus on the minutia of dressing properly and having to get married, I felt the real proof of Merida maturing into adulthood was her accepting that she has to think about the consequences of her actions (such as not considering that the other clans would declare war when she won the right to her own hand and not thinking through the use of magic) Remember, the movie didn't end with her married or in one of the fancy court dresses her mother wanted her in- it ended with her apologizing to her mother and taking responsibility for having gone about trying to solve her problems the wrong way. That was her "grown up" moment.

[Artemis]

I don't think that the old lady was the villain, just a slightly confused old crone. And crones are not a bad thing, in celtic myth, they are to be respected.

I think that you wanted to see it as just another princess movie and so you watched it through that curtain.

Crones are totally to be respected, that was my point. The triple aspect of the moon goddess - maiden, mother and crone represents the different attributes of womanhood in various ages, doesn't it? Unfortunately crones as represented in media/film are often not the archetypal moon goddess crone - powerful and also wise - but the perversion of the crone that was written into literature when she was turned into the 'evil witch' by the patriarchal establishment. The 'crone' in Brave was the patriarchal perversion, rather than the matriarchal archetype - in my opinion, which is just an opinion.

I didn't set out to watch it 'wanting' to see anything really. I watched it because I was asked to, and I was actually quite hoping I would like it because it WASN'T just another princess movie. Bits of it I found quite funny, and a few bits of it I liked. It was just that it was touted as almost a 'Hey, look at this, we can produce a feisty heroine who isn't a wimp like most princesses, oh and by the way we are being enlightened and non-sexist here' movie, and for various reasons I didn't find it so. On balance it was marked 'dislike, don't watch again' on my mental record sheet, rather than 'like'.

Valsa wrote:

Granted, while having those particular issues be the device used to get the lesson across does perpetuate some tired stereotypes, I struggle to see more appropriate issues to focus on, given the setting of the movie (in real life Merida probably would have been married and at least pregnant by 16 years old)

This I do agree with.

One of my favorites is when Merida stands up to her father when it comes to his irrational hatred of bears (granted, it was to protect her mother) It puts me in mind of when a young adult might have to stand up to their parents when it comes to challenging real life bigotry against gay people or immigrants or people of other religions. That’s probably another reason fundies hate it.

And this I really agree with. Unfortunately, it's also possible that the other reason I found myself disliking the film is because throughout the film the relationship between Merida and her mother was triggering. I have no desire to turn my mother into a bear, but her focus on control, appearance, and ladylike behaviour, and her relationship with Merida reminded me rather too strongly of my mother's relationship with my sister.

[Soldier of the One]

This is really the $64K question. But the Botkins' "grown children" (oxymoron, anyone?) haven't been able to break away from worshiping at the church of Daddy Said So.

Well, yes... but as a Progressive woman of faith, this is the $64K question my mind conjures up each time when I read the fundie perspective. The 'key-hole' morality ('a govt. so small it fits through the key-hole of the bedroom') is something I don't get. I see it as another distraction from real issues: if we're all consumed by moral hysteria surronding Teh Gayz and Teh Babyeez, then we won't have to think about the real issues of power and money.

Certainly, the Bible (both OT and NT) think a whole lot more about questions of justice and power than fundies do.

[Claddagh]

I haven't seen Brave but my aunt loved it.

At LAF they bitched about the movie as well.

ladiesagainstfeminism.com/uncategorized/can-we-have-a-braver-princess-please/

ladiesagainstfeminism.com/feminism-related-issues/a-princess-without-a-prince/

[Guest Anonymous]

So what's he's saying is that the girl can be like the boys too if they still act feminine and respect and obey their parents all the time without fighting or arguing?

am I right or am I missing something?

How do you still act feminine and be like the boys?

[Olive Plant]

So what's he's saying is that the girl can be like the boys too if they still act feminine and respect and obey their parents all the time without fighting or arguing?

am I right or am I missing something?

How do you still act feminine and be like the boys?

Silly Madhatter! You can be a Woman of God and use a tent peg to kill your enemies, but only if you stay home where you belong and God delivers him to your door. You can't actually go to battle or anything. Obviously, God likes it best when lone women invite lone men in for some supper and then murder him in his sleep. Which makes me wonder: why aren't the fundies bent out of shape that Jael let a known "bad man" into her tent without a manly man present? Why wasn't she terrified of being raped by her enemy? And is this a model I should be following? Yes, obviously it is, according to the Botkins. I think I'll start living in a tent with no locks, alone, and kill any intruders with sharp household objects, like kitchen knives. No guns; those aren't specific to women.

[Guest Anonymous]

Silly Madhatter! You can be a Woman of God and use a tent peg to kill your enemies, but only if you stay home where you belong and God delivers him to your door. You can't actually go to battle or anything. Obviously, God likes it best when lone women invite lone men in for some supper and then murder him in his sleep. Which makes me wonder: why aren't the fundies bent out of shape that Jael let a known "bad man" into her tent without a manly man present? Why wasn't she terrified of being raped by her enemy? And is this a model I should be following? Yes, obviously it is, according to the Botkins. I think I'll start living in a tent with no locks, alone, and kill any intruders with sharp household objects, like kitchen knives. No guns; those aren't specific to women.

Didn't they forget women like Deborah? the biblical Judge, General and Prophetess? what about women outside the bible but were Christians? Joan of Arc? Elizabeth I? Harriet Tubman?

Are these people hypocritical gynephobes or are they practicing antinominaism?

[Guest Anonymous]

What is their exact ideal of ideal femininity?

from what I read they expect the girls to behave in a way the sounds almost similar to a Pollyanna and Ingenue

[Olive Plant]

Didn't they forget women like Deborah? the biblical Judge, General and Prophetess? what about women outside the bible but were Christians? Joan of Arc? Elizabeth I? Harriet Tubman?

Are these people hypocritical gynephobes or are they practicing antinominaism?

Deborah only led an army because God was judging Israel. It was a dishonor to have her lead. Israel was so vile God had them win through a female.

None of the "Christian" women outside of the Bible count, unless the Botkins change the historical facts and claim them as role models, as in the case of Anne Boleyn. Joan of Arc should have stayed at home and done her laundry, like Anne Boleyn did.

[MyName]

I'm just surprised they were even allowed to see the movie. When I was a kid in a fundie (before it not iblp or vf) church, Disney was frowned upon...pamphlets about why you should boycott were readily available.

[MamaJunebug]

I understand that Doug & Geoff find so much objectionable in Disney that they've decided to diss "Lady and the Tramp" - should I see if I can find the manuscript?

I can see them complaining about the following, more-or-less in order:

the mother bottle-feeds the baby after having permitted a male doctor to attend the delivery: skank or libertine?

the dogs eat too much meat and pasta, not enough healthy food (learn the right way to eat at Food Conference 2.0 in 2014!!)

Jock and Trusty: queers or homos?

the cats allow Aunt Agatha to hold them waaay too close to her breasts

Aunt Agatha relies on the government (dog catchers) instead of on the church elders

Peg the jailbird Pomeranian: oh, where to start?

the puppies-- the majority of whom are females - obviously defrauded Jock, causing him to forget his story

Sounds absurd? So does most of what come out of the Phillips/Botkin pieholes.

[jenny_islander]

I really disliked it, but not because Merida goes for her own goals. I liked the fact that she was sporty, feisty, and all that jazz, and that she was pursuing her own goals.

What I didn't like was the way she went about pursuing them: choosing to manipulate and deceive, rather than fight her corner. Instead of using open methods she used 'magic' which then enabled the film to reproduce the stereotypical 'evil witch' figure, showing the post menopausal woman as a vector of evil, deceptive, and a sower of anarchy.

I didn't like the way that her mother's reasonable desire for her to be 'responsible' - that is to grow from girlhood to womanhood, was trivialised by a focus on dressing properly, being a 'lady' and getting married as a mark of adulthood: it was just as misogynistic and sexist in its way as the extremely saccharine femininity of Disney princesses.

I found the film very sexist and stereotypical in its own way: a typical product of an industry that demonises female self-determination. In many ways it reminded me of some Victorian novels, where the heroine's attempts to fight her corner result in a disaster that shows how immature she really is. Oh yes, they dressed it up with a happy ending, but the overall message was still sexist. Merida may have been a 'heroine' but what about the other female characters in the story?

Where was the 'sisterhood' motif, or the women who helped her to self-determine in a mature and non-damaging way?

I sat and snarled right through it, much to the disgust of DD2 who asked me to watch it, because 'the heroine is brave and not a wimp, Mummy.'

The day the film industry produces a really non-sexist and non-stereotypical woman I will eat my bra.

OTOH, I'm right now watching the scene where Merida finally figures out that her mother has a point with all the princessy stuff, she was just bad at expressing it. She ends a brewing four-sided war by making a persuasive and moving speech--as her father observes proudly, "just like your mother." She also wins the right to choose her husband in her own time, which turns out to free her three suitors from an oppressive burden as well.

Merida's right to self-determination is honored and confirmed before witnesses because she finally figured out how to go after it without behaving like a bumptious teenager. This is her coming of age. After this, she fights like an adult. She thinks her way out of the current problem (Dad locked her up to keep her safe) instead of just running away until she stumbled over the first thing that looked useful (as she did when she met the Crafty Carver). She uses every tool at hand (sewing the tapestry in order to break the spell, on horseback, at full gallop, in the dark no less) instead of spurning the tools that are too princessy (the earlier scenes of conflict with her mother). And she also takes up arms to protect what matters to her, just as she always has.

Meanwhile, her mother learns to enjoy the places her daughter loves, to appreciate her daughter's "unwomanly" skills, and to fight like her daughter. And she also uses the dignity of her authority to bring order out of chaos, just as she always has.

This isn't a movie about sisterhood because it's a movie about mothers and daughters.

As for the Crafty Carver, I didn't think she was evil. She asked Merida if she was sure about the spell. She didn't even offer at first; in fact, she kept insisting that she was not in that line of business anymore. Merida pushed the issue.

[Miggy]

Dear Botkins,

As an Australian citizen I would like to inform you that the most noticeable feature of Julia Gillard's leadership is that it is no different to the leadership of any of the men who have preceeded her. Please consider this in future when writing movie reviews.

A (Bored) Liberal Feminist

*In addition to the lists above of female leaders, please don't forget Angela Merkel, Jenny Shipley & Helen Clark.