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Pope to resign? Feb 28


Librul

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I'll be praying that the next pope has a revelation that it's perfectly all right for good Catholic couples to use birth control. Not holding my breath, though.

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wow really weird, even if he is ill its strange, popes just die being popes, its the tradition... i wonder if this sets a new precedent and is going to be like this from now on.

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Oh my god!! The end of civilisation, first our queen and now the pope. Is there still hope for mankind??

Maybe that's it--they're running off together ;)

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Order of things this morning: I see someone on Facebook posted a link to "The Pope is resigning."

Me, being a Catholic (one of those liberal, social-justice, hey Pope, stay out of my bedroom Catholics), thinks, "What? Yeah! I think..."

And then I ran to FJ because I knew you'd be talking about this.

Part of me is happy because I was not happy with him as a pope. There's a schism in the Catholic church, especially prevalent in the US - what The Powers That Be preach (aka the Bishops who decide they need to cry about being made to provide birth control for female employees and investigate that hotbed of radical feminism known as the Girl Scouts; oh, and let's not forget the Vatican's investigation into US nuns). And then the actual Catholics, many, many, many of us who think, "Get with the program! You are not reflecting the values of the actual congregation!" Of course there are the Very Fundie Catholics (Abigail jumps to mind), but at least where I live, they're much smaller in numbers (I live in a very high Catholic area. We are also a very Democratic area when it comes to politics.)

As others have also written, though, who's to say that the next guy will be any better.

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Ladbrokes (UK bookmaker) has Peter Kodwo Appiah Turkson at 5/2 to become next Pope.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Turkson

Interesting.

As much as I would like to see a nonwhite, non-European Pope, I don't see an African Pope being awfully liberal on issues of human sexuality. From the Wikipedia article: "Homosexuality

Despite having flirted with it in his youth, he now calls it 'horrendous...I am jealous of their fashion sense.'"

Just what the Catholic Church needs: another closeted, conflicted gay guy.

That said, if this Cardinal makes it past any unvoiced but entrenched racism in the Papal election process, he could be a force for greater social justice for the poor and disenfranchised.

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He hasn't been to the seminary since his last visit, in late May 2005, which lasted over an hour. In parting, Ratzinger signed the guestbook. He wrote "Benedict XVI" and then, leaving a small space, scribbled "pope." At first he wrote it with a lower-case p, but then he changed it to an upper-case one.

None of his predecessors had ever signed anything like that -- and Benedict himself would never do it again. It was almost as if he had to tell himself: My God, I'm the pope!

The Der Speigel article is really interesting- if he was "enviably fit, both mentally and physically" in June last year, then that makes the health story even more implausible- if there had been a rapid decline in his health, wouldn't it have been on the news? Certainly in the UK, when JPII was on his last legs, it felt like there was speculation on his health every time he appeared- no matter how the Vatican tried to stop it.

It looks to me like his resigning is a political move now- either because he knew he was unloved within the Vatican and decided to give up trying to gain influence, or he's been pushed out.

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Good. Enough information has come to light to make me believe he was complicit in the sexual victimization of many children.

Hopefully the Catholic church will elect someone more liberal with clean hands.

Me too. I believe that his resignation has something to do with the fact that he was apparently part of the cover up of priests who abused children. It annoys me that the media seems to be taking the Vatican's reasoning at face value and not asking any harder questions.

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There's a small part of me that is pulling for someone not-white/European to get a serious nod because it'll give some of my relatives such a twitch.

There's a good chance of that. The growth in church is mainly is in Africa, Latin American and Southern Asia.

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The Der Speigel article is really interesting- if he was "enviably fit, both mentally and physically" in June last year, then that makes the health story even more implausible- if there had been a rapid decline in his health, wouldn't it have been on the news? Certainly in the UK, when JPII was on his last legs, it felt like there was speculation on his health every time he appeared- no matter how the Vatican tried to stop it.

It looks to me like his resigning is a political move now- either because he knew he was unloved within the Vatican and decided to give up trying to gain influence, or he's been pushed out.

Not necessarily, he could have suddenly gotten a major diagnosis- such as cancer (just an example). My mom was quite healthy for her age, she went in for her yearly physical and they noticed something off and within a week she had a cancer diagnosis. It was completely unexpected because she didn't have any major symptoms. If it's something like that he may not have had much warning; and he won't be able to do the job if he's going to be doing chemo or radiation.

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According to this 3 part article (link not broken because it is Der Spiegel) this has been perculating for a while.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/eur ... 38830.html

Ratzinger has always been more comfortable as the power behind the throne. I also think he was disappointed by not automatically becoming popular as Pope. But look at any scandal in the last 30-40 years (from Vatican bank scandals to clergy sexual abuse) and you will find him lurking in the shadows. People just don't like him. For very good reason.

Perhaps by stepping down now he can work behind the scenes again to ensure rapid progress towards his own canonization!

I thought this article did a good job summarizing the troubles he's had since becoming pope; he just can't get people to do what he wants, among other things.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/fe ... intcmp=239

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Not necessarily, he could have suddenly gotten a major diagnosis- such as cancer (just an example). My mom was quite healthy for her age, she went in for her yearly physical and they noticed something off and within a week she had a cancer diagnosis. It was completely unexpected because she didn't have any major symptoms. If it's something like that he may not have had much warning; and he won't be able to do the job if he's going to be doing chemo or radiation.

Oh, yeah. Good point, I didn't think of that scenario.

The BBC said (I'm sure) that his brother had known about his plans for a few months, but I suppose that doesn't exclude the sudden health issue hypothesis, since that's still quite recent.

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I thought this article did a good job summarizing the troubles he's had since becoming pope; he just can't get people to do what he wants, among other things.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/fe ... intcmp=239

Agreed. To the bolded: I think his inability/failure to gain the trust of, or control over the Curia is his downfall, to a greater or lesser degree. Even if his resignation is purely health-based, his papacy hasn't been a shining success on any level. The Curia hold the most power in the Vatican; although the Pope is their "boss", there is only one of him and many of them. A pope who has failed to assert his authority over the Curia has no control over a very powerful, many headed hydra with access to money and secrets. It's a risky position to be in.

"In God's Name" by David Yallop is a good book to read on this- it's specifically about the circumstances of JP I's death, but has lots of info on the machinations behind the scenes at the Vatican. He's also written a similar book on JPII's papacy, but I've not read it.

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Me too. I believe that his resignation has something to do with the fact that he was apparently part of the cover up of priests who abused children. It annoys me that the media seems to be taking the Vatican's reasoning at face value and not asking any harder questions.

Another view of this that I"ve heard is that he was the one who wanted to expose/prosecute/excommunicate/whatever to the abusing clergy, but was prevented from doing so. JPII would not hear of it when he was Pope and Joey Rats was head of the body that deals with such things. Then when Joey Rats got elevated to pope, he found that even the pope was subject to control by some small group of cardinals, so still the extermination of the bad elements never happened. EVen though he was pope, he couldn't take the kind of large scale action that was needed. And so now he is fed up with his own impotence and the church's indifference, has indeed "examined" his "conscience," and has decided to move on.

I agree with those who think his health is just a smokescreen. If his health is bad, it's probably the physical manifestation of having surpressed the abuse info for so long.

It's also possible that he's being given the bum's rush. Since he was pretty old when elected, he was only expected to be a placeholder for The Next Big Cardinal. I guess over the past few years the Cardinals have had a chance to agree among themselves over a beer or ten who they want to run things next. I don't look for anyone to ease the burdens on women or the GLBTs of the world; quite the contrary.

Joey Rats, we hardly knew ye.

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It's all over the internet this morning. Benedict is set to resign on Feb 28th due to health reasons.

Maybe he wants to spend more time with his children??

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Maybe he wants to spend more time with his children??

:clap: :clap: :clap:

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/02/11 ... -february/

The pope's 89-year-old brother, Georg Ratzinger, told a German news agency that the pope has had difficulty walking recently and has considered stepping down for months.

“His age is weighing on him,†Georg Ratzinger said. “At this age my brother wants more rest.â€

Even before becoming pope, Ratzinger had experienced health problems and attempted to resign from his role as prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith several times, only to stay on at the behest of Pope John Paul II. In 1991, Ratzinger suffered a stroke, according to reports. After becoming pope, Benedict, who predicted a short tenure for himself, suffered another stroke in May 2005, according to the Vatican. He is also believed to suffer from a heart condition.

I dont buy the "health reasons" for a second. This is a position that, he believes, is appointed by god himself. You dont walk away from being god's personal representative on earth unless... youre not doing a good job...

A Vatican spokesperson told "Fox & Friends" that Pope Benedict "will not take part in conclave" to choose his successor. Officials hope to have a new pope in place in time for the start of Holy Week, on March 14.

This is a GIANT flashing red light for me. How do you not even take part in choosing your successor??? Because you arent worthy, thats how!

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This is a GIANT flashing red light for me. How do you not even take part in choosing your successor??? Because you arent worthy, thats how!

True, but also, this hasn't happened since the 1400s: Popes don't normally take part in choosing their successor, because (stating the obvious, sorry) they've been put out to pasture by the Flying Spaghetti Monster. I would imagine that for all intents and purposes, this is a new situation for the Vatican and they don't really know what they're doing.

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I hope he's replaced by someone more liberal, but I won't hold my breath.

Per NPR, he appointed 55% of the voting cardinals, and the rest were in the group that elected him. Not likely to see a liberalization of the church this time.

I suspect he is in very bad health, and it is harder to hide that your pope is a drooling old man in diapers from the media / public today than it once was.

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At first this was the best news. I hated him and actually teared up a bit when he was named. I was really hoping for someone, anyone who was progressive. At the time he was named I was teaching at a Catholic school and we had all of the kids in an assembly to watch. When they named him our school's religion coordinator gasped and let out a very loud, "Oh no!" She quickly reined her emotions back in but it was what most of us adults were feeling. He never convinced me that he was a good and holy person and I felt that he was dragging the Church backwards.

So, my first reaction as the news this morning was, "Thank God!" Then I started thinking about how it was just his sneaky way to have a hand in who replaces him, to ensure that someone just as conservative and backwards thinking takes his place to rule for another 20 years. Ugh.

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True, but also, this hasn't happened since the 1400s: Popes don't normally take part in choosing their successor, because (stating the obvious, sorry) they've been put out to pasture by the Flying Spaghetti Monster. I would imagine that for all intents and purposes, this is a new situation for the Vatican and they don't really know what they're doing.

I don't have any issue with him not participating in the conclave, but I think the Vatican knows EXACTLY what it's doing.

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He's 86 and (according to the BBC) never wanted to be Pope in the first place, so I think it's plausible that he truly is stepping down for health reasons connected to old age. But I guess we'll never find out if otherwise.

I think he always wanted to be pope, and the only reason he's taking the unusual step of resigning instead of dying in office is that he wants to keep his finger in the pie.

I also think it's HILARIOUS that the Catholics think the pope is chosen by God, but they're going to make sure they have one elected by Holy Week. Not a word about "God's will" in any of the reports I've seen.

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I don't have any issue with him not participating in the conclave, but I think the Vatican knows EXACTLY what it's doing.

I always wonder if they know what they're doing or if they THINK they know what they're doing.

It always puts me in mind of the Steinbeck quote about how the big shots forever pushing the explosion farther into the future, but forever further guaranteeing it would happen. (I cannot find it or put it into his words, darnit)

I think the Vatican knows what *should* work, but hasn't yet grasped that it working for the past few hundred years doesn't mean it'll continue working.

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Apparently if you want to contribute to his leaving present you can donate via PaPal.

Totally pathetic but made me :lol:

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