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Arkansas Fetal Heartbeat Bill - Be afraid!


Buzzard

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There is so much fucking wrong with this statement.

1) Don't apologize for offending people. If you really cared, you wouldn't have such an offensive opinion.

2) Does it really surprise you that people are passionate about women being stripped of their rights, sometimes with the consequence of them dying?

3) Are you not being cavalier when you allow women's lives to be ended or significantly negatively affected due to what is ultimately an empty appeal to emotion that has nothing of substance backing it up?

4) No one has an abortion because it's convenient. The next time someone tries to shovel a spoonful of the dogshit that is "pro-life" propaganda down your throat, for once in your damn life, close your mouth.

:clap: Couldn't have said it better myself! Whether you like it or not Sunshine, as long as there are unplanned/unwanted pregancies or pregnancies with threathen the life of the woman, there will be abortions. Making them illegal will only force them underground, which will kill women - will end real lives. If you really want to reduce the number of abortions, provide decent sex education and free easy-to-access contraception! Also one final thing to add, if it's not your body then it's not your concern!

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Wow, this thread got all kinds of away from me while I was out bringing home the bacon to fry it up in a pan and never let him forget he's a man. Or something. I was thinking about Sunshine though, because, really I didn't think he/she was a troll. I thought Sunshine sounded an awful lot like someone who was testing out what they had been told was the right answer. I remember being youthful. Once. That's how I thought, right? You try things out, and the things that come out of your mouth are like try outs. So, you didn't offend me, Sunshine. You cannot offend me. I was sincerely and gently asking questions that I wanted your honest input to, which, I appreciate you have provided, as lousy as the answer was. And as lousy as the answer was, it was sort of what I was expecting. But hope springs eternal. Sunshine, why NOT be selfish? I realize that as a woman I am supposed to read that indictment and recoil in horror that I have the audacity to think of my female self for a single solitary second and immediately herd back into the fold where I think about everyone BUT myself, but, alas, I don't care if anyone thinks I'm selfish or not, as I suspect you do.

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Wow, this thread got all kinds of away from me while I was out bringing home the bacon to fry it up in a pan and never let him forget he's a man. Or something. I was thinking about Sunshine though, because, really I didn't think he/she was a troll. I thought Sunshine sounded an awful lot like someone who was testing out what they had been told was the right answer. I remember being youthful. Once. That's how I thought, right? You try things out, and the things that come out of your mouth are like try outs. So, you didn't offend me, Sunshine. You cannot offend me. I was sincerely and gently asking questions that I wanted your honest input to, which, I appreciate you have provided, as lousy as the answer was. And as lousy as the answer was, it was sort of what I was expecting. But hope springs eternal. Sunshine, why NOT be selfish? I realize that as a woman I am supposed to read that indictment and recoil in horror that I have the audacity to think of my female self for a single solitary second and immediately herd back into the fold where I think about everyone BUT myself, but, alas, I don't care if anyone thinks I'm selfish or not, as I suspect you do.

I kept on typing replies and then deleting them because I'm not getting a troll vibe. We've certainly had enough drama to troll on over the past month if they wanted to out themselves.

I'm going to assume that Sunshine is younger, and probably grew up in a family or school that bussed the kids to hold signs and pray for teh baybeez, and that the "selfish" argument is not entirely their own. As has been said, not every pregnancy is intentional, not every pregnancy is healthy, and even those that are intentional are not always realistic. If an intellectual debate is to be had, lets have it. I have my big girl panties on today (for now).

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Yes, abortion and adoption are two different things. Woman can be a mother of a dead child or alive one but gave the child an opportunity to live. Giving birth is no more than a punishment then sleeping with a man without protection or if it fails. As women, our parents did not end our lives why not give that child planned or not an opportunity to make life of their own. Why be selfish? It makes no sense. I apologize if you have been offended in my statement or maybe you are just passionate in the woman's right to choose. Either way we can't be so cavarly to end a life because it is convenient and make excuses that only show we choose to be blind in this matter.

And for the rest of your questions, they are out of scope to what I have said.

Thank you.

If you want to birth a child and place said child up for adoption, that is your choice, but you should not force others to do the same. Also, just because a child is born does not mean they are guaranteed life or a good one at that. Ever worked with abused children? I have. I would much rather a woman be what you call "selfish" than to see a child suffer at the hands of someone who never wanted that child in the first place. It happens.

People that hold your stance make it appear all so simple. It is not.

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Sunshine:

You're damn straight I'm selfish! I choose my own life over certain death when I aborted my first pregnancy. And good thing I did. My son would not be here today if I hadn't. My husband would not be getting the chance to fulfill his dream. The company I work for would not be getting my valuable knowledge and expertise. I MAKE A DIFFERENCE IN THIS WORLD!!!! I deserve to live. I was sad to have to end my very much wanted pregnancy, but I do not regret my decision.

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Wow, this thread got all kinds of away from me while I was out bringing home the bacon to fry it up in a pan and never let him forget he's a man. Or something. I was thinking about Sunshine though, because, really I didn't think he/she was a troll. I thought Sunshine sounded an awful lot like someone who was testing out what they had been told was the right answer. I remember being youthful. Once. That's how I thought, right? You try things out, and the things that come out of your mouth are like try outs. So, you didn't offend me, Sunshine. You cannot offend me. I was sincerely and gently asking questions that I wanted your honest input to, which, I appreciate you have provided, as lousy as the answer was. And as lousy as the answer was, it was sort of what I was expecting. But hope springs eternal. Sunshine, why NOT be selfish? I realize that as a woman I am supposed to read that indictment and recoil in horror that I have the audacity to think of my female self for a single solitary second and immediately herd back into the fold where I think about everyone BUT myself, but, alas, I don't care if anyone thinks I'm selfish or not, as I suspect you do.

I agree, I don't think she is a troll. But I'm not sure she is prepared to defend her beliefs. It is one thing to say that women should be forced to continue pregnancies they don't want, it is another thing to be able to logically defend that stance. Perhaps Sushine will come back and prove me wrong, but I didn't get that vibe from her answers, it sounds like she is just repeating things she has been taught. I've been there and it is hard to have your beliefs torn apart and to realize what being anti-choice really means.

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It just bugs the ever loving crap out of me when someone believes the decision to abort is selfish or even simple. There are many reasons why this choice is made. To wrap it up with a simple everyone must choose adoption is very simplistic thinking.

I also think it is complete bullshit that the very same politicians that claim they want smaller government and less government spending take no issue with bigger government and more spending on this issue. These same idiots scream to the hills about the second amendment and you better not touch their guns, and we all see how many innocent children or youth die from guns within the U.S. Again, just another example of these politicians not really caring about children and just being hypocritical.

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I agree, I don't think she is a troll. But I'm not sure she is prepared to defend her beliefs. It is one thing to say that women should be forced to continue pregnancies they don't want, it is another thing to be able to logically defend that stance. Perhaps Sushine will come back and prove me wrong, but I didn't get that vibe from her answers, it sounds like she is just repeating things she has been taught. I've been there and it is hard to have your beliefs torn apart and to realize what being anti-choice really means.

I think she also hasn't yet understood that being pro-choice does not mean you think abortion is the only option. It means you want women to have a choice about their body and their pregnancy and supporting whichever choice they make (i.e. parenting/abortion/adoption) and not juding them for it but respecting their right to choose.

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Yes, abortion and adoption are two different things. Woman can be a mother of a dead child or alive one but gave the child an opportunity to live. Giving birth is no more than a punishment then sleeping with a man without protection or if it fails.

Maybe you didn't intend it to be so, but that seriously offends me: I've never had a child, but I'm sure giving birth is quite different than just sleeping with someone. Actually...I'm quite, quite certain.

As women, our parents did not end our lives why not give that child planned or not an opportunity to make life of their own. Why be selfish? It makes no sense. I apologize if you have been offended in my statement or maybe you are just passionate in the woman's right to choose. Either way we can't be so cavarly to end a life because it is convenient and make excuses that only show we choose to be blind in this matter.

And for the rest of your questions, they are out of scope to what I have said.

Thank you.

And that's the beauty of pro-choice: if a woman wants to put their child up for adoption, then great. But if she's suffering from something medical, or doesn't want a baby because they know they can't support it while pregnant, then why on earth shouldn't she NOT have the choice to end it? Making a woman stay pregnant just because is nothing more than just punishing the woman for simply having sex.

And to seriously enforce that on women just because of the government's religious beliefs is wrong and makes the US look as bad as the Taliban.

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Sunshine, I think that you are still trying to find your voice so I won't jump on you...for the moment. I know that you are probably feeling quite overwhelmed at the response you have received but please take it as a jumping off point for why you believe what you believe. Take some time to review the other person's view point and try to see their point even if you don't agree with it. Formulate some arguments to support your view point since that is how you learn, and most importantly don't be afraid to change your ideas. You don't have to do a 180 turn on your views but remember that everything is not as black and white as it appears.

With that said there is a saying that goes along the lines of "don't bring a knife to a gun fight" (yes I'm American, why do you ask? LOL ) If you feel passionately about something try to bring something more to the argument then the same old pointless arguments that so many anti-choice websites put out. Getting pregnant means so much more then you get fatter for 9 months and boom, here's a child. There are very real changes that happen during and after a pregnancy that should not be trivialized or written off with the view point of it's all about the babeez. Carrying a pregnancy to term does change your life forever and that is not always a good thing.

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Giving birth is no more than a punishment then sleeping with a man without protection or if it fails.

Thank you.

Oh, Sunshine. Giving birth is absolutely "more a punishment." I have to assume that only a person who has never given birth would ever DARE to say such a thing, and I know that most people who haven't given birth absolutely know better.

My stories are not that dramatic. They happen every day to women all over the world, which is why I will use them as examples of the "punishment" associated with giving birth. Those with more dramatic stories have my ever-present empathy. I choose to share my stories with you rather than just say "it's not that simple" because I honestly believe you have not had to think about the real women affected by your beliefs.

Labor, my dear child, involves hours and hours and hours of agonizing pain. For some of us, that pain starts weeks before the baby decides to makes it's appearance. I certainly hope that when you have sex with a man, you do not experiences many hours of agonizing pain. If you do, dear, you should talk with a doctor. That's not normal. Labor pain=normal.

My first child was delivered by ceasarean section. I would not wish the recovery on a c-section on any person, man or woman. It hurts to walk up stairs, it hurts to cough, it hurts to laugh. It hurts to hold your baby, your beautiful new person. I have an 8 inch scar on my abdomen from that c-section and the flesh 2 inches above and below that scar has no sensation. That's right: I can't feel my abdominal muscles, and I can't tell if something is touching my skin. But, that's exactly like having sex. I also have psychological damage because when the doctor removed my child from my body, it didn't occur to her to show me the baby or tell me that the baby was ok. My baby didn't cry, so I was terrified. I was also temporarily unable to speak because, often, when a baby is delivered, your body floods with hormones which can have all kinds of interesting effects - like rendering one mute. It was 20 minutes before I could speak, so for 20 minutes I lay on that table convinced that my baby was dead. But that's exactly like having sex.

My second child was a vaginal delivery. Despite being uneventful and "normal," I, like many women, now have some difficulty containing my urine when I cough or laugh. It also takes me twice as long to empty my bladder than it did before I gave birth to him. I tore during his birth and still feel slight discomfort when having sex with my husband. My hips, which went out of joint many times when I was pregnant, are still loase and prone to pain and slippage. These are all normal side effects of pregnancy. Pregnancy and birth are incredibly hard on a woman's body and no one has the right to force a woman to experience those pains/changes without her consent.

I hope that you are learning something from this thread. While most of us wish that the world were a world with no abortions, we stop short at the outrageous idea that the government, a man, a woman, or anyone has the right to force a woman to be pregnant without her consent. This is not selfish; this is a basic human right.

You cannot force me to incubate an IVF baby for another couple. Why? Because it's my body. You cannot force me to give my heart to my already birthed child because it is my body, even if My Child will Die if I do not give him that heart (in fact, you can't even ask me, legally). No one would look at the mother who is keeping her heart and call her selfish.

You cannot force me to carry another human without my consent. I am not selfish. I am a person.

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You've gotten a lot of good answers and I don't want to jump on you. However I had to respond to a couple of things in your post.

A

Yes, abortion and adoption are two different things. Woman can be a mother of a dead child or alive one but gave the child an opportunity to live. Giving birth is no more than a punishment then sleeping with a man without protection or if it fails.

Sleeping with a man is pretty pleasurable. Having an unwanted child is not pleasurable. Unless you've never had sex or given birth, I'm not certain how you can logically compare the two.

For some women, carrying a pregnancy to term is not easy. Some of us experienced nausea, depression, extreme lower and leg pain, sleep deprivation etc. Depending on their income level, the resulting pregnancy and birth can be quiet expensive. Further, some women do not have supportive families or loved ones.

As women, our parents did not end our lives why not give that child planned or not an opportunity to make life of their own. Why be selfish? It makes no sense.

Thank you.

If my mother aborted me, I would not know. In the early stages of pregnancy, the fetus does not have a functioning brain yet. It has no self awareness or idea of what is happening to it.

Sometimes being selfish is the best thing for yourself and other people. Having an unwanted child is not necessarily a good thing. Unless you can guarantee that mothers not only give their unwanted children up but that those children find good homes, I don't know how you can even begin to suggest what the pregnant woman should do.

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Adoption is an option for women who don't want to be mothers but are pregnant. They should allow that child to have the opportunity that the woman has exeprienced.

Sunshine, I think if you thought about it for five seconds, you would realize that abortion and adoption are not even close to two sides of the same coin. Physiologically, and psychologically, they are not even in the same universe. Yes, I realize that you would still be able to punish the woman for having sex, so there is that, but what is your reasoning on why women "should allow" this? And further, how are you going to legislate it? How are you going to make absolutely sure that every single solitary unwanted pregnancy results in an adoption? I think this is been tried before, and it didn't work. Have you read "The Girls Who Went Away" by Ann Fessler, about this very thing?[/quote

Yes, abortion and adoption are two different things. Woman can be a mother of a dead child or alive one but gave the child an opportunity to live. Giving birth is no more than a punishment then sleeping with a man without protection or if it fails. As women, our parents did not end our lives why not give that child planned or not an opportunity to make life of their own. Why be selfish? It makes no sense. I apologize if you have been offended in my statement or maybe you are just passionate in the woman's right to choose. Either way we can't be so cavarly to end a life because it is convenient and make excuses that only show we choose to be blind in this matter.

And for the rest of your questions, they are out of scope to what I have said.

Thank you.

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Sunshine, so many other posters have presented you with well thought out rebuttals to your statements that I won't bother to rehash here but I do have a question for you that I hope you'll respond to as I'm genuinely curious to hear your answer. In your staunch pro-life stance, does the well-being of the pregnant woman EVER enter into your consideration? How can you feel so passionately about the survival of a non-sentient zygote/embryo/fetus (because it is at this stage that the vast majority of abortions are performed, despite the vile, graphic bleating of the forced-birthers) yet have seemingly zero empathy for the woman carrying said group of cells? You glibly claim that adoption is always an alternative to abortion yet you seem to completely discount what the woman has to go through physically, mentally, emotionally, financially etc. for the time she'd have to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term, not to mention what trauma may occur upon surrendering a child for placement with another family.

How do you defend this position?

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I dream of a day it would be possible to transplant embryos to men and have them carry to term and deliver by c-section. I would love to see 1) how many men who talk the talk about women carrying all pregnancies would actually walk the walk and 2) how many restrictions they would be trying to place on abortions then.

As the late, great feminist attorney Flo Kennedy once said "If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament."

ETA: KBepote, that was a beautiful post you wrote. I hope you keep posting regularly.

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sunshine,

I am truly curious - do you feel it is acceptable to force the victim of rape or incest to carry that fetus to term? Is it acceptable to require a child that is 12, and has been horribly abused, to give birth?

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There is NO WAY I would risk my life at this point, should I find myself pregnant. I have children who need me to be here to raise them,and my last birth made it VERY clear that I was lucky to walk away with both my life and my organs intact. No adoption in the world would solve that problem, nor would I ever consider subjecting my family to the idea of not only risking my life but to carry a baby that was given away. We mostly think we are done having children, but we may yet add to our family again. It is not a child I cannot handle but PREGNANCY. I have taken full reasonable options and accountability to prevent pregnancy. I'm not about to stop having sex, nor should I be expected to. In short, I have done everything humanly possible to avoid pregnancy. If one should occur anyway, I would abort so fast heads would spin. I would not, under any circumstances, risk my life at this point. I have a house full of children who need their mother.

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Just as an aside Sunshine, how many children from foster care have you adopted? How many potentially abortion seeking mothers do you support emotionally and financially? How many pairs of school shoes have you bought for these resulting children? How often have you cared for the baby while the mother returned to work? Did you continue that care when the baby reached toddlerhood, became a pre-schooler and eventually pre-teen? How many college funds have you set up?

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Fuck, now Republican representatives in Iowa are introducing a bill to define abortion as first-degree murder from the moment of conception. At least we have a Democratic State senate that keeps the stupider bills from going forward. Still, it's a bad day when I have to contact my representative during breakfast . . .

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Just as an aside Sunshine, how many children from foster care have you adopted? How many potentially abortion seeking mothers do you support emotionally and financially? How many pairs of school shoes have you bought for these resulting children? How often have you cared for the baby while the mother returned to work? Did you continue that care when the baby reached toddlerhood, became a pre-schooler and eventually pre-teen? How many college funds have you set up?

Silly, Sola. That stuff only applies in the real world.

Sunshine here lives in a perfect world. And in her perfect world, sluts may sometimes get knocked up, but they're saved from having to murder their babies by righteous, upper middle class, white, married, Christian couples. These couples adopt those babies from their thankful whore mothers to raise as their own. So there's never any need to help out a struggle single mother or adopt children from foster care.

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Silly, Sola. That stuff only applies in the real world.

Sunshine here lives in a perfect world. And in her perfect world, sluts may sometimes get knocked up, but they're saved from having to murder their babies by righteous, upper middle class, white, married, Christian couples. These couples adopt those babies from their thankful whore mothers to raise as their own. So there's never any need to help out a struggle single mother or adopt children from foster care.

Not to mention, in said perfect world, pregnancy is as enjoyable as sex, has no financial or physical complications, and when all is over you feel like a cigarette.

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I'm still chuckling over the idea that pregnancy and birth are no different than sex. :lol:

And since she is still posting in the David and Pricsilla thread I think she is probably just avoiding this one because it is really hard to defend the stuff she has said. I suspect she doesn't even know how to do it, she is just repeating what she has been trained and has never really thought it through. It is sad because she could really learn a lot about her own beliefs if she is open to it.

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