Fundies and alcohol

[YPestis]

I was just reading the most recent blog post from Anna T and was surprised she was looking for matching wine glasses. For some reason, I never thought of her as a drinker. Many fundies in the US do not drink. In fact, many nonfundies or fundie-lite have similar aversion to alcohol. Do Jews of Anna T's persuasion permit alcohol? Aside from Catholics, most religious conservatives in this US I've known do not drink. Plus, I've never met a Mormon who imbibe alcohol.

Are Christian fundies outside the US more liberal about drinking? I've heard that Europeans in general are more permissive with alcohol for cultural reasons and that US, also for cultural reasons, are more anti-alcohol.

Am I wrong about who drinks and who doesn't? Do Jews across the spectrum allow for alcohol? Are there any conservative Christians (aside from Catholics) who also permit alcohol? Or is this more of a cultural thing and Europeans, regardless of religious affiliation, are just bigger drinkers than Americans?

[lilith]

I have no idea if Anna T drinks, but I have known of fundies who buy wine glasses to serve water in at formal dinners.

Some unlikely fundies do drink though - Kim C for one.

[miffy]

Anglicans & Church of Ireland certainly can.

As far as I know Lutherans, Coptics, Eastern Orthodox, are all given wine at church.

[lilith]

Anglicans & Church of Ireland certainly can.

As far as I know Lutherans, Coptics, Eastern Orthodox, are all given wine at church.

Yes, it's a very American Baptist thing to replace the communion wine with water (or grape juice). My father was friends with a (very very liberal) catholic priest who used to drink to excess regularly.

[miffy]

Yes, it's a very American Baptist thing to replace the communion wine with water (or grape juice). My father was friends with a (very very liberal) catholic priest who used to drink to excess regularly.

Was it Father Bob? Because i'd be surprised if he doesn't have a drink (or 3) with his Orthodox Jew turned atheist BFF Jon Safran, whom he does not judge.

[lilith]

Was it Father Bob? Because i'd be surprised if he doesn't have a drink (or 3) with his Orthodox Jew turned atheist BFF Jon Safran, whom he does not judge.

No, more liberal than Father Bob, would you believe.

[defrauding]

Do Jews of Anna T's persuasion permit alcohol?

Alcohol is definitely part of religious Jewish culture. Shabbat meals, for example, begin with a blessing recited over wine known as kiddush, and the wine usually flows freely during the meals as well. Alcohol is also a major part of Purim -- coming up in a few weeks! -- and Simchat Torah.

(Speaking of Purim, I need to come up with a costume idea. Perhaps I can rope a friend into dressing up with me as Jim Bob and Michelle.)

[LurkerOverThePond]

Our dear old infamous friend from the previous board, Brantley D., obviously drinks. His Instagram had a few photos of him visiting pubs with friends, drinking craft beers if I remember correctly. His Pinterest also has this picture under the title "Places TO GO": pinterest.com/pin/220887556693233536/

Unfortunately, I don't have a link to his Instagram anymore since I removed the link from my fundie bookmarks - I couldn't stand his smugness and _very_ obvious narcissism anymore.

I wonder why this guy hangs out with the fundies. His lifestyle is very material and revolves around worldly entertainment: movies (like the latest Bond), watching sports, visiting breweries, cars... Nothing wrong with those, of course, but why the heck does he socialize with all the hc fundies?

[salsa]

Yes, it's a very American Baptist thing to replace the communion wine with water (or grape juice). My father was friends with a (very very liberal) catholic priest who used to drink to excess regularly.

Methodists do, too, though the main "branch" of Methodism isn't fundy. Nowadays, it's still used out of consideration for alcoholics.

The attitude towards alcohol can vary. Some are complete teetotallers, though they do acknowledge that drinking is OK in the Bible. They choose to eschew all alcohol so as to be sure to not be drunk, which is cautioned against in both the Old Testamen and in Paul's letters. That oversimplifies it, and I'm sure it's not inclusive, but of the fundies I know, I think it's a fair-enough summation. Others drink a little, and others have no qualms about alcohol at all, though not in the fundy world. In Anna T's case, it doesn't surprise me that they drink wine; wine is used in many religious ceremonies and their being Orthodox would lead me to believe they follow the ceremonies closely. There is nothing in the OT to really prohibit alcohol (though there are places that caution against drinking too much "strong drink" - I'm remembering in Isaiah only because I sang Thompson's "The Peaceable kingdom" and remember it in the lyrics).

Also, I think someone upthread was right; Europeans in general have a more casual attitude towards wine. By some accounts, European countries have a lower incidence of alcoholism, too. Interesting. Maybe if we could let go of some of that Puritanical influence, we could have a healthier attitude towards the use of alcohol...

[KBepote]

My childhood church (fundie-lite) forbade alcohol use of all forms, even in cooking. While they acknowledged the presence of wine in the bible, they regularly taught that "wine was different back then," specifically that what was called wine was actually grape juice because it never fermented. Yes, this was crazy talk.

[clicker dies]

I've got some pretty conservative family. I think they're Seventh Day Adventists who attend a mega church, that kind of thing. They don't drink and don't like when people drink around them (that said my dad orders a beer in their presence whenever he feels like pissing them off... it's his sister's family).

I once asked my dad why they don't drink when Jesus himself turned water into wine. He said their reasoning was because Jesus didn't actually have any of the wine he made :lol: . Whether he was being facetious or not, that's become my canon for them.

My family's religious persuasions vary from atheist/non-observing to pretty strictly Catholic to various Christian protestant denominations, but I think my aunt's side are the only ones who don't imbibe.

[So Says I]

Remember Papa Keller's little speech at Josh & Anna's wedding? Jesus turned that water into grape juice, dagnabbit! :naughty: :lol:

[clicker dies]

Remember Papa Keller's little speech at Josh & Anna's wedding? Jesus turned that water into grape juice, dagnabbit! :naughty: :lol:

D'oh! :doh: Of course he did!

[YPestis]

Alcohol is definitely part of religious Jewish culture. Shabbat meals, for example, begin with a blessing recited over wine known as kiddush, and the wine usually flows freely during the meals as well. Alcohol is also a major part of Purim -- coming up in a few weeks! -- and Simchat Torah.

(Speaking of Purim, I need to come up with a costume idea. Perhaps I can rope a friend into dressing up with me as Jim Bob and Michelle.)

That's interesting to know. I've always imagined Anna T to be a teetotaler, but that's probably due to my perception of religious conservatives (i.e Anna Duggar's dad and his water to grape juice story). It is strange how the fundies, who take the Bible so literally, refuse to acknowledge the role of wine in the Bible. I find it fascinating some people's complete aversion to alcohol when it has nothing to do with alcoholism.

[Irishy]

I remember hearing or reading somewhere that alcohol consumption is highest in places with less daylight. Maybe that correlates to religion somehow....

It's certainly the norm among the catholic clergy in Ireland. They drink like any other, a doctor, a plumber, a cleaner... Being a priest doesn't separate you from normal life. Well, except for the celibacy.

[ADoyle90815]

I've known Mormons who did have wine glasses, but they served sparkling cider or other juices in them. My guess is that's also the case with others who belong to churches where alcohol isn't allowed. These people in general don't care that until relatively recently in history, alcoholic drinks were safer to drink than water, and that without pasteurization and refrigeration, grape juice naturally ferments. I think one reason Mormons use water instead of grape juice is that they don't have to worry about fermentation at all when they leave it in the chapel until it's blessed and passed around.

[shedemei]

As others pointed out, wine features in many Jewish religious ceremonies. Avoiding alcohol and considering drinking it to be a sin is not at all part of Judaism.

[dilannsmom]

My childhood church (fundie-lite) forbade alcohol use of all forms, even in cooking. While they acknowledged the presence of wine in the bible, they regularly taught that "wine was different back then," specifically that what was called wine was actually grape juice because it never fermented. Yes, this was crazy talk.

My fundie-lite Baptist church taught/teaches this also. If you are a member you are expected not to drink at all--it is in the church constitution. I grew up in said church, and then went to a Catholic college. Good god, what an enlightening time that was. Spring Break was always scheduled around St. Patrick's Day so the campus would be empty--I guess in the 70s there were some crazy happenings! I was astounded when the brothers would show up at keggars in the student neighborhood (or the Ghetto as we called it) with their cups. It was pretty freakin fantastic for this Baptist girl who had never seen people drink while growing up.

(With that said, I'm pretty sure that is why I ended up doing some pretty heavy duty drinking in college--I had never had the freedom to do it while living at home. I made up for a lot of lost time...and made some pretty bad decisions.)

[constantgardener]

My most religious (English) friend, who I guess you would call fundie-lite Baptist, can drink me under the table any time. When we were teens she also procured our first cigarettes. As for Catholics, my late grandad virtually had a brewery running in his garden shed.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Alcohol is definitely part of religious Jewish culture. Shabbat meals, for example, begin with a blessing recited over wine known as kiddush, and the wine usually flows freely during the meals as well. Alcohol is also a major part of Purim -- coming up in a few weeks! -- and Simchat Torah.

(Speaking of Purim, I need to come up with a costume idea. Perhaps I can rope a friend into dressing up with me as Jim Bob and Michelle.)

Ditto. Jewish dietary laws bans a lot of things, but alcohol is not one of them. Wine is used for various religious rituals and holidays. There's a bit less of the "bar culture", though - drinking is usually associated with family/religious events. The amount of drinking varies - growing up, my very Canadian, Conservative Jewish family and synagogue would do sips of sweet wine for the religious rituals, but there was rarely any other drinking. This article describes my parents eerily well:

http://arts.nationalpost.com/2011/09/24 ... and-booze/

Orthodox, and especially Hasidic Jews, OTOH, will often drink more. It's still a religious/social thing, but the alcohol is seen as having this mystical function - part truth serum, part method of allowing people to access higher levels of spirituality and joy.

Example of a Chabad farbrengen:

Women will drink the obligatory wine for religious rituals, but often don't do the extra drinking at farbrengen's as well (although I have been to a women's farbrengen) - part of the reason is a growing awareness of the dangers of fetal alcohol syndrome.

[bionicmlle]

I also grew up in a fundie-lite church - "water turned into grape juice" variety. I have heard some fundies, however, state that drinking isn't a sin, that drunkeness is the sin (like eating isn't sinful, but gluttony is).

Sidenote -- I was in Maui last week and ran into a young Mennonite couple (I am guessing, given her attire) shopping at the ABC store buying some Mikes Hard Lemonade. I wonder if they drink or were just thirsty for lemonade???

[Pudicitia]

I was hugely confused for a moment there... In the UK, "cider" is alcoholic. "Apple juice" is non-alcoholic, "cider" is alcoholic (often very alcoholic, much more so than beer)

[salsa]

My childhood church (fundie-lite) forbade alcohol use of all forms, even in cooking. While they acknowledged the presence of wine in the bible, they regularly taught that "wine was different back then," specifically that what was called wine was actually grape juice because it never fermented. Yes, this was crazy talk.

Ohhh, yeeaaahhh.... :doh: I'd forgotten about that explanation. Thanks for reminding me. So much for biblical literalism, eh. wine was grape juice - so why doesn't the KJV say "grape juice," then?

[frumper-rump]

My childhood church (fundie-lite) forbade alcohol use of all forms, even in cooking. While they acknowledged the presence of wine in the bible, they regularly taught that "wine was different back then," specifically that what was called wine was actually grape juice because it never fermented. Yes, this was crazy talk.

I went to a Southern Baptist Church as a child and this is what we were taught in Sunday School. Between the teachings of my church about alcohol and growing up with an alcoholic father (agnostic at the time- didn't attend church with us), I had a seriously messed up view of alcohol until I was in my mid 20's. It was only then that I could not feel guilty about enjoying wine with friends or a nice drink with dinner.

[Esther]

European Christians of all denominations do alcohol - the Catholic priest on my university campus is actually a licensed bartender. We are generally more liberal in our approaches to alcohol, anyway - when I did a two-year MA program in the US, I thought it was really odd that there was no alcohol allowed on campus. I wondered WTF one does for receptions, then. The answer was apparently orange juice. Luckily I am now back in the UK where any university occasion warrants plenty of wine. ;)

Jews are cool with alcohol across the spectrum. I get a glass of port at temple every week. :D