Jim Bob's bike analogy

[ElphabaGalinda]

Wow. Just...wow. They are seriously allowed to go beyond just teaching "Abstinence is best" and can go right to the slut shaming? That's just terrible. :(

I also can't believe this is a real thing and could be allowed. I mean I know it does in some places, but that seems like it'd be a really pointless and fact free class. Our sex ed had tests where we had to remember the different kinds of contraceptives and different kinds of STDs, and abstinence was presented as one of many valid options. I've never heard of anything like that flower game, and even in 7th grade that game would have made me mad. The one thing I hated about sex ed is that everyone in class was assumed to be straight, and I hope that changes some day. I don't like the idea of any game as part of sex ed, but I think nothing beats facts. I also loved that we got to ask anonymous questions every class, and I can't imagine teachers not being allowed to answer.

[Mela99]

I still refuse to believe he gives a damn about his sons in this regard. I think he would shrug it off and say no big deal.

[EyeQueue]

I really don't know. I have encouraged my son to answer the questions as they are wanting them answered because they are graded and part of his science grade.

I can ask him...but I don't think the 6th and 7th graders really ask many questions. I think this age is usually embarassed.

Thanks, Treemom. It's interesting to hear how these topics are handled in other areas. Yes--the kids are usually embarrassed, so that makes the whole topic even more difficult to teach. I was raised in a fairly repressed family, and I've had to struggle to overcome that in talking to my daughter about sexual topics. But it gets easier every time I do it. Your son is lucky he has someone like you to supplement the dearth of info he's getting in school.

Oral sex is also a 100% effective method of birth control too. Abstinence as a standard sucks.

And this is so true. That's one of the beefs I have with the sex-ed curriculum in the public schools here. I don't know to what extent they address sexual behaviors other than intercourse. It seems everything so much revolves around what to do to make "Insert Penis into Vagina" safer or to avoid it at all costs. I don't know that I necessarily want the schools advocating "go out and do X, Y, or Z instead of intercourse when you feel horny", but I think the kids do need such info. "Outercourse" should be addressed as part of the healthy sexual behaviors spectrum, because most kids are going to something before marriage--whether it's kissing, heavy petting, oral sex, or full-on intercourse.

[singsingsing]

If the game had been the beginning and end of our education on STDs, I would totally agree with you. :) Thankfully that was not the case. It was a quick game to make a point. We devoted a lot more class time to actually learning about and discussing STDs, their varieties, effects, treatment, prevention, etc.

I can't say I agree that calling abstinence '100% effective' automatically makes it the gold standard... it's just the truth. We learned that birth control pills are almost 100% effective too, and it's not like the teacher was constantly reminding us that ONLY ABSTINENCE really works. Also, abstinence IS the only form of birth control which prevents both pregnancy and STDs. I don't think there's anything wrong with just laying down the facts so that teenagers can make their own informed decisions, as long as you're really giving all the facts (i.e. not glorifying abstinence and downplaying/demonizing all other forms of bc). This is my opinion. I'm not advocating for it or writing sex ed curriculum. ;)

[treemom]

If the game had been the beginning and end of our education on STDs, I would totally agree with you. :) Thankfully that was not the case. It was a quick game to make a point. We devoted a lot more class time to actually learning about and discussing STDs, their varieties, effects, treatment, prevention, etc.

I can't say I agree that calling abstinence '100% effective' automatically makes it the gold standard... it's just the truth. We learned that birth control pills are almost 100% effective too, and it's not like the teacher was constantly reminding us that ONLY ABSTINENCE really works. Also, abstinence IS the only form of birth control which prevents both pregnancy and STDs. I don't think there's anything wrong with just laying down the facts so that teenagers can make their own informed decisions, as long as you're really giving all the facts (i.e. not glorifying abstinence and downplaying/demonizing all other forms of bc). This is my opinion. I'm not advocating for it or writing sex ed curriculum. ;)

Except you said THE ONLY form of birth control. And things like herpes can be spread without intercourse. I don't believe it is factual actually.

You can feel any way you want about your education. But I am assuming you thought these were valuable bits...and as a parent of a 12 year old I feel differently.

[treemom]

I also can't believe this is a real thing and could be allowed. I mean I know it does in some places, but that seems like it'd be a really pointless and fact free class. Our sex ed had tests where we had to remember the different kinds of contraceptives and different kinds of STDs, and abstinence was presented as one of many valid options. I've never heard of anything like that flower game, and even in 7th grade that game would have made me mad. The one thing I hated about sex ed is that everyone in class was assumed to be straight, and I hope that changes some day. I don't like the idea of any game as part of sex ed, but I think nothing beats facts. I also loved that we got to ask anonymous questions every class, and I can't imagine teachers not being allowed to answer.

You pointed out another one of my problems with this...the assumptions about sex.

[Maggie Mae]

I started looking through the K-3 "Family Life" curriculum and was annoyed enough with some of the assumptions, especially the family tree exercise. I can't believe schools still do that. It's good to know, but I don't know very many people who have a mother and a father and four grandparents.

[treemom]

Thanks, Treemom. It's interesting to hear how these topics are handled in other areas. Yes--the kids are usually embarrassed, so that makes the whole topic even more difficult to teach. I was raised in a fairly repressed family, and I've had to struggle to overcome that in talking to my daughter about sexual topics. But it gets easier every time I do it. Your son is lucky he has someone like you to supplement the dearth of info he's getting in school.

And this is so true. That's one of the beefs I have with the sex-ed curriculum in the public schools here. I don't know to what extent they address sexual behaviors other than intercourse. It seems everything so much revolves around what to do to make "Insert Penis into Vagina" safer or to avoid it at all costs. I don't know that I necessarily want the schools advocating "go out and do X, Y, or Z instead of intercourse when you feel horny", but I think the kids do need such info. "Outercourse" should be addressed as part of the healthy sexual behaviors spectrum, because most kids are going to something before marriage--whether it's kissing, heavy petting, oral sex, or full-on intercourse.

I am not sure I did the right thing in how I spoke to my son...but my husband was sort of resistant to it and I didn't want to leave him factless.

Basically I told him that I think sex is complicated for many people during adolescence and so avoiding it can sometimes help avoid complications. But ultimately he owns his sexuality. I told him he is welcome to ask me or his father anything. We talked about contraception and condoms. I said that until he is an adult and with someone he is willing to raise a child with that I recommend condoms because he has to be responsible for himself.

I also told him no one owes him virginity. No one. Not his partner/spouse/ or child.

[treemom]

And one of the problems with ignoring everything outside of penis in the vagina sex is that safety and risks can't be talked about. Like the fact that anal may prevent pregnancy but it makes it much easier to transmit some STDs. Or how to protect yourself and your partner during oral sex.

There is just so much that gets ignored. And while I doubt i would be completely comfortable with my son having oral sex...I also don't want to handicap him by ignoring a very common sex act.

[singsingsing]

Except you said THE ONLY form of birth control. And things like herpes can be spread without intercourse. I don't believe it is factual actually.

You can feel any way you want about your education. But I am assuming you thought these were valuable bits...and as a parent of a 12 year old I feel differently.

Sorry, I'm not really following you here. What did I say was the only form of birth control? I'm totally willing to admit error, I'm just not sure where it happened. :oops: I understand that herpes can be spread through other means... again, we devoted time to subjects like this is class. The bits I brought up just happen to be the bits which came to mind when I replied to this thread. Grade nine was ten years ago. I personally feel like the sex ed. I got was great, but I can't remember every detail of it now. I fully believe that as the mother of a 12-year-old you are more concerned and more educated on the matter than I am, which is why I'm basically talking about my own experience, not suggesting that sex ed. should be taught in a certain way.

Reading your posts, I think I understand your frustration, and I totally agree with it. Sex ed. in many circumstances seems woefully inadequate. I would want to tear my hair out if I thought my kid was being taught that he/she was failing to meet some golden standard if they didn't remain abstinent, or that STDs can't be contracted from anything other than piv sex. I also realize that my posts lacked context and that they came across like I learned about abstinence, birth control, and STDs in class, black and white, open and closed, the end. That would suck, and it thankfully wasn't the case.

[lilith]

My problem with the "STD games" are that they portray someone starting off pure and clean and becoming tainted and diseased by having sex, and more tainted the more sex they have.

The glass of water analogy someone mentioned above would have been more realistic if a certain number of players always used contraception to stop their liquids mixing and came out the other end just fine.

The claim may be that it teaches about the prevalence of sexually transmitted diseases, but the subtext is "sex makes you dirty".

And Treemom - WTF with your sons curriculum? Although you can counter facts it must be challenging to counter the underlying attitudes he's being taught.

And the thing that causes aids is sharing of blood or semen. So doing drugs won't give you AIDS, but sharing needles and other equipment might. I know you know this, but I can't believe aren't being taught it.

[August]

One of my high school friends got genital herpes from oral sex. :( Our school had awesome sex ed, but the guy's school didn't, so he didn't know to tell her he had a cold sore.

Lilith, to me that water game teaches you that even though the person you're swapping fluids with is 'clean ' and 'trustworthy', the person they last swapped fluids with may not have been, and therefore everyone is suspect. But,

I was a teenager in the age of graphic AIDS ads, so I'm a leetle bit paranoid.

[Conuly]

We did learn that abstinence is the only 100% effective method of birth control, but then we learned about every other method

Well, that's the lab rate. Condoms have close to a 100% lab rate of success as well. But people who rely on condoms sometimes make mistakes and sometimes forget to use them in the heat of the moment, so the real world rate is somewhat less successful than the lab rate.

Likewise, people who depend on abstinence as their method of birth control sometimes screw that up by screwing around anyway, making the real world success rate of abstinence less than 100%. If we count people who forget to take their pill into the failure rate for the pill, and people who forget to use a condom when they usually do into the failure rate for condoms, then we absolutely must take people who intended to abstain and then didn't into the failure rate for abstinence. And once we do that we find out that abstinence has a success rate that is far lower than 100% for both birth control and disease prevention.

[EyeQueue]

And one of the problems with ignoring everything outside of penis in the vagina sex is that safety and risks can't be talked about. Like the fact that anal may prevent pregnancy but it makes it much easier to transmit some STDs. Or how to protect yourself and your partner during oral sex.

There is just so much that gets ignored. And while I doubt i would be completely comfortable with my son having oral sex...I also don't want to handicap him by ignoring a very common sex act.

QFT! There's just so much to cover that eventually it becomes a sticky morass. :(

[treemom]

In grade nine I went to an alternative high school. It was a small program, and most of the kids there had been kicked out of their 'normal' schools for fighting, breaking rules, etc. We all had to take a mandatory life skills class, and it was awesome. Not only did we get in depth teaching about healthy and abusive relationships, we got comprehensive sex ed. We did learn that abstinence is the only 100% effective method of birth control, but then we learned about every other method. The most effective thing they did to teach STD prevention was this game where we all had vials of liquid. One person in the class had an 'STD'. We went around and mixed our liquid (lol) with two other people in the class. By the end of the class, we all had the STD. Definitely an effective way to teach the importance of safe sex.

this is where you said what you learned. We learned abstinence is the only 100% effective method of birth control.

By them teaching it (not factually i might add) as the ONLY 100% effective method of birth control they created a gold standard.

I am glad they talked about other stuff...but i really wish they would just drop the whole abstinence is better talk period.

[treemom]

My problem with the "STD games" are that they portray someone starting off pure and clean and becoming tainted and diseased by having sex, and more tainted the more sex they have.

The glass of water analogy someone mentioned above would have been more realistic if a certain number of players always used contraception to stop their liquids mixing and came out the other end just fine.

The claim may be that it teaches about the prevalence of sexually transmitted diseases, but the subtext is "sex makes you dirty".

And Treemom - WTF with your sons curriculum? Although you can counter facts it must be challenging to counter the underlying attitudes he's being taught.

And the thing that causes aids is sharing of blood or semen. So doing drugs won't give you AIDS, but sharing needles and other equipment might. I know you know this, but I can't believe aren't being taught it.

Another good point why I hate those games.

My son is actually pretty sharp on the underlying attitudes. I don't think I am an award winning parent...but the fact that my husband and I aren't super puritanical and yet somehow still incredibly boring probably helps the underlying ideas.

[treemom]

by the way this is the state mandated curriculum for the entire state of Tennessee.

The districts have a little lee way in what they present, but not a ton. And abstinence until marriage is all that can be talked about.

[kiwimusume]

Jim Boob is this guy?

[singsingsing]

this is where you said what you learned. We learned abstinence is the only 100% effective method of birth control.

By them teaching it (not factually i might add) as the ONLY 100% effective method of birth control they created a gold standard.

I am glad they talked about other stuff...but i really wish they would just drop the whole abstinence is better talk period.

Okay, I understand what you're saying now. The fact is that abstinence IS the only 100% effective method of preventing both pregnancy and STDs. I really don't see any way to get around that. It is what it is. It doesn't have to be presented in a way that demeans sexual activity or other methods of birth control, but I think it's dishonest to pretend that abstinence isn't most effective when it is. Again, it's a fact. It's not about ideology. Sometimes it IS more responsible to abstain from sexual activity. I don't see anything wrong with kids and teenagers being taught that.

[Gil]

I think my brain has done its best to block out all of public school health courses. They were awful. It ranged from "Don't eat calories" to "You don't have any self-respect if you do anything but remain abstinent." On the last day we were given a five-minute explanation of how male condoms worked with words on laminated cards (?) and then shown the door. With that information, a gaggle of fifteen-year-olds were supposed to somehow navigate sex in the real world.

At one point we were given a packet where we were told to outline our sexual boundaries for the reading pleasure of an adult we barely knew. By then fed up with the whole charade, I declared my intentions to have sex with no more than four people at a time and to never, ever have sex with horses. Likely got lucky that the teacher was moving to a different district in a matter of weeks and had stopped caring because that would have been a fun disciplinary incident to explain on college applications.

[treemom]

Okay, I understand what you're saying now. The fact is that abstinence IS the only 100% effective method of preventing both pregnancy and STDs. I really don't see any way to get around that. It is what it is. It doesn't have to be presented in a way that demeans sexual activity or other methods of birth control, but I think it's dishonest to pretend that abstinence isn't most effective when it is. Again, it's a fact. It's not about ideology. Sometimes it IS more responsible to abstain from sexual activity. I don't see anything wrong with kids and teenagers being taught that.

But it isn't for the same reasons someone else stated. Attempted abstinence has a much higher pregnancy and STD rate.

I don't disagree that abstinence is more responsible in many situations...but that doesn't make it the only 100% safe way.

[treemom]

I think my brain has done its best to block out all of public school health courses. They were awful. It ranged from "Don't eat calories" to "You don't have any self-respect if you do anything but remain abstinent." On the last day we were given a five-minute explanation of how male condoms worked with words on laminated cards (?) and then shown the door. With that information, a gaggle of fifteen-year-olds were supposed to somehow navigate sex in the real world.

At one point we were given a packet where we were told to outline our sexual boundaries for the reading pleasure of an adult we barely knew. By then fed up with the whole charade, I declared my intentions to have sex with no more than four people at a time and to never, ever have sex with horses. Likely got lucky that the teacher was moving to a different district in a matter of weeks and had stopped caring because that would have been a fun disciplinary incident to explain on college applications.

In eighth grade my son will have to detail what he wants in a spouse and write a letter to a friend saying what he thinks real love is.

[Gil]

In eighth grade my son will have to detail what he wants in a spouse and write a letter to a friend saying what he thinks real love is.

Ew. I hope they don't make them actually send that. It's creepy how much they expect children in these programs to give up any semblance of private thought.

[slickcat79]

In eighth grade my son will have to detail what he wants in a spouse and write a letter to a friend saying what he thinks real love is.

Hmm, wonder if they're allowed to want a same-sex spouse? I think I could guess what the state of TN would think about that...

[treemom]

Hmm, wonder if they're allowed to want a same-sex spouse? I think I could guess what the state of TN would think about that...

Probably not, since teachers can't use the word gay in Tennnessee.