Santa and Fundies

[razingruth]

As some of you who read my blog might see, I had a little breakdown last night. Had some eggnog at a work party and BOY- didn't see that coming.

In any case, I couldn't decide if this should go in chatter or in snark. I decided snark because it's something about this fundamentalist movement that really, really pisses me off.

Santa Claus.

When I was growing up, we didn't do Santa. My older brothers say that we did when they were very, very young, but by the time I was able to remember, we didn't. I would obviously see all of the pictures and decorations including Santa around town but he wasn't in our house. And, what was wrong with Santa?

I asked my parents that when I was pretty small. I had overheard my brothers saying something like, "remember when we used to put up stockings and Santa came?" I honestly thought, at that point, that Santa was some friend of the family who came around and gave my brothers socks. When I asked my parents, "Who is Santa?", my mom gave me a talk about an old man in a foreign country that inspired gift giving. That was it. No north pole, no elves, no lists...just "he was a guy". We did exchange gifts- sort of, I guess- but it was one gift exchange and that was "to honor Jesus' birthday". As a family, there was usually some stupid "gift for the family" that my father had wanted and we were all supposed to be happy about it. In truth, we were because we didn't know it was supposed to be any different.

Christmas in our house was about Jesus' birthday. I crack up whenever I see the big, Duggar, "Happy Birthday" banner on the catwalk because we always had a "happy birthday, Jesus" poster on our front door. But, in the house, we didn't have much in the way of decorations. There WAS a manger scene, though. Many of them. We were told that Christmas trees were pagan and that anything other than celebrating the birth of the savior was displeasing to the Lord.

Now I'm older and have experienced Christmas with Harris' family and seen different Christmas traditions on television and I have to admit- I feel a little cheated. My first letter to Santa was written last night. So, I have to ask- WHY? What would've been wrong with letting children be absorbed in the magic of Santa Claus and the magic of the season? Would it really have distracted from our faith? I don't think so. In my opinion, QF families that pull the crap my parents pulled are simply cheap and misguided. I'm not saying there should be rampant consumer greed or that parents should encourage kids to expect anything they desire under that tree. But, come on...most of the world- most CHRISTIANS- celebrate this season and do the fun, cultural stuff. I find it laughable that many ATI families wear the Star of David and light menorrahs, but they don't do Santa Claus.

Mary gave birth to Jesus and he was a gift to the world. So, as I see it, having kids exchange meaninful, thoughtful gifts would be an extension of that Bible story.

Thoughts?

Merry Christmas, everyone.

[homeschoolmomma1]

Your post got me thinking. Do the Duggars have a Christmas tree anymore? I know in the clip on youtube when Jackson was a baby they did, but I don't know if they do in the TTH hmmmm

Merry Christmas to you- I'm sorry you didn't have Santa growing up. Watching Christmas movies with Santa in it now must be so painful

[ILoveJellybeans]

I dont think they like Santa because if they lie to their kids about Santa, maybe that might make them doubt other things the parents have told them, like Jesus. For a kid, Santa has proof because of the presents that are under the tree every morning. Jesus never leaves signs like that. At one point when I was about 7, I had decided that God probably didnt exist, but I believed in Santa because he left presents under the tree and I heard bells outside on Christmas Eve.

I see Santa as more as an exercise in critical thinking anyway, kids learn to work it out for themselves by thinking of things like how Santa gets to all of the houses in one night, or how he gets into the houses down the chimney when houses dont have fireplaces like that anymore, or how reindeer can fly. They also learn to even doubt sources that seem reliable, like their parents, if things seem illogical.

[fatcat]

I was wondering just the other day if many of the people discussed here celebrate Christmas in the usual fashion, and if so how they celebrate it. It must be hard to give so many gifts when you have such a large family, as many of them do. I've heard Doug Phillips doesn't celebrate Christmas, but I don't know if it's true. So you could celebrate Christ's birthday but gift-giving was seen as pagan? Of course Christmas itself originally incorporates pagan traditions, but that some Christians would reject traditions that come with their most famous holiday, so to speak, seems odd to me. Maybe you can make up for never getting presents by buying yourself lots of presents in the future... :think:

And oh yeah, I've been lurking here for a really long time, but never said much, mostly because everyone had said what I wanted to say. I'll try to post more in future.

[debrand]

I admit to having mixed feelings about the practice of Santa Claus. One thing that I want my children to know is that I won't lie to them and yet I did about Santa because other people guilted me into doing so. If I had to do it over again, I'd tell my kids there was no Santa but they could still get gifts on Christmas morning and have the fun of writing notes if they wished. My daughter-who seems to be born a skeptic-told me that she never believed in Santa and felt irritated that everyone seemed intent to lie to her. My other children really liked the practice of Santa Claus and have fond memories.

Ironically, I think that the reason that some fundies don't do Christmas is because of superstition not a desire to be honest with their child. They feel that this make believe man will somehow take away from their children's own religious faith. However, if they believed that their god was real, there is no way that Santa could detract from him.

My mother and stepfather gave me a wonderful explanation about Santa Claus. He was real and existed every time we helped another person without asking for anything in return. Even if you don't do Santa, I think that is a nice thing to teach children.

[doggie]

Is not god Santa for adults? At least in the fundy world? As god enough and he will bring you what you want.

[constantgardener]

I admit to having mixed feelings about the practice of Santa Claus. One thing that I want my children to know is that I won't lie to them and yet I did about Santa because other people guilted me into doing so. If I had to do it over again, I'd tell my kids there was no Santa but they could still get gifts on Christmas morning and have the fun of writing notes if they wished. My daughter-who seems to be born a skeptic-told me that she never believed in Santa and felt irritated that everyone seemed intent to lie to her. My other children really liked the practice of Santa Claus and have fond memories.

Ironically, I think that the reason that some fundies don't do Christmas is because of superstition not a desire to be honest with their child. They feel that this make believe man will somehow take away from their children's own religious faith. However, if they believed that their god was real, there is no way that Santa could detract from him.

My mother and stepfather gave me a wonderful explanation about Santa Claus. He was real and existed every time we helped another person without asking for anything in return. Even if you don't do Santa, I think that is a nice thing to teach children.

I have a very religious friend who is like this. For example, in her house you are never allowed to say anything is 'lucky', because there is no such thing as luck, only God's will.

My eldest son, like your daughter, never really fell for the Santa stuff, but it did upset me when he told his younger brother that Santa didn't exist, because he completely believed it. But they have just made me put out a mince pie for Santa and a carrot for Rudolph on the fireplace though, just in case!

[razingruth]

Your post got me thinking. Do the Duggars have a Christmas tree anymore? I know in the clip on youtube when Jackson was a baby they did, but I don't know if they do in the TTH hmmmm

Merry Christmas to you- I'm sorry you didn't have Santa growing up. Watching Christmas movies with Santa in it now must be so painful

I'm not sure they have a Christmas tree. We saw one in the VSE about Josie's premature birth and the family moving to Little Rock. However, in that episode, for that Christmas Day, they were in a donated house that had already been decorated by the family that lived in it. I've never seen a Christmas Tree in the TTH.

As far as Santa movies being painful - it's not the movies that cause me pain. It's the joy I see other people experiencing and remembering how we didn't have that joy at Christmas time--- that causes me pain. Not having my family, as twisted and sick as some member are, at Christas--- painful. Just knowing that our normal, American childhood was sacrificed for the whim of a single, self-appointed leader ---that hurts.

Mostly, I suppose, I'm just hurt that I haven't done more to put myself in a better situation this Christmas. When I left, I swore that, by now, I'd be this self-reliant superwoman and I'm not.

Santa just seems like a nice idea to me.

[Sinister Rouge]

Is not god Santa for adults? At least in the fundy world? As god enough and he will bring you what you want.

But God is a white dude with facial hair who lives in a mysterious land far away, has minions to do his dirty work, watches your every move, knows if you've been bad or good, and rewards you if you behave.

[wild little fox]

I had a similar upbringing, except we didn't do ANY "pagan" holidays. My folks did not "lie" to us about Santa, the Easter Bunny, or the Tooth Fairy. No wishes or "luck". No tree, no Easter, no Christmas, etc.

We were not supposed to talk about our differences because it would bring condemnation to the family. Everything was about appearances to my dad.

In my years as a Christian I could not bring myself to embrace Christmas or Easter. Now I consider myself an agnostic pagan and I still feel funny about holidays, although it is easier for me to embrace the changing of the seasons because as a homesteader I'm tuned to the natural rhythms of the earth.

I tried to have Christmas with different families, etc, but once something is gone and you are an adult it is hard to do. Since I do not have children, I cannot recreate my childhood through them. It is okay. It is what it is and I've let go of resentments and bitterness towards the whole thing. My parents were doing what they felt was right, even though it was extremely messed up.

ETA: quotes around "pagan" holidays.

[wild little fox]

I admit to having mixed feelings about the practice of Santa Claus. One thing that I want my children to know is that I won't lie to them and yet I did about Santa because other people guilted me into doing so. If I had to do it over again, I'd tell my kids there was no Santa but they could still get gifts on Christmas morning and have the fun of writing notes if they wished. My daughter-who seems to be born a skeptic-told me that she never believed in Santa and felt irritated that everyone seemed intent to lie to her. My other children really liked the practice of Santa Claus and have fond memories.

Ironically, I think that the reason that some fundies don't do Christmas is because of superstition not a desire to be honest with their child. They feel that this make believe man will somehow take away from their children's own religious faith. However, if they believed that their god was real, there is no way that Santa could detract from him.

My mother and stepfather gave me a wonderful explanation about Santa Claus. He was real and existed every time we helped another person without asking for anything in return. Even if you don't do Santa, I think that is a nice thing to teach children.

You would think that Christian parents could incorporate the story of St. Nicholas into Christmas. Maybe as another example of what being a true Christian means, because Nicholas helped those girls not to be sold into slavery (IIRC) and then use that to spurn into doing good Christlike deeds at Christmas time through the example of St. Nicholas. Just my two cents.

[Closed Womb]

As much as I love Christmas, there is a quote that seems to sum up the other side of things:

"Christmas is a holiday that persecutes the lonely, the frayed, and the rejected." ~ Jimmy Cannon

It is a sad time for many, for a myriad of reasons. The narrative of perfection that is reinforced over and over again through commercials, movies, Christmas specials makes it really hard for anyone who is not exactly where they want to be in life. Even people that are with friends can feel like the lost puppy, not really fitting into holiday traditions different from their own. My heart goes out to you, Mary/Ruth, and everyone else who is not having the Christmas they hoped for.

FWIW, I grew up believing in Santa. I don't think this has harmed me in any way. I understand those who choose not to mislead their kids, and I better understand those that love to see the wonder and magic in their children's eyes when the presents, seemingly from nowhere, appear. I think it is a personal decision and I respect both.

I don't respect the fundie's decision to ban all things Christmas. As I said in another thread, this is the never happy type of person. They are upset because Jesus isn't at the forefront of American's thoughts, but for the month or so when Christmas, understood to be the birth of Christ, puts Jesus at the forefront, they STILL aren't happy because the it is a "lie."

Ruth: I think it is okay for you to feel cheated and disappointed, both about your sad Christmases past and your current holiday. The fact that this is a First World Problem does not invalidate your sadness, in my opinion. If you haven't already, Alecto has a Festivus thread (it's a sticky, at the top) for the airing of grievances. It might be therapeutic to let it out.

Merry Christmas and may your future Christmases be all that you dreamed for and more.

[JeanneD]

You would think that Christian parents could incorporate the story of St. Nicholas into Christmas. Maybe as another example of what being a true Christian means, because Nicholas helped those girls not to be sold into slavery (IIRC) and then use that to spurn into doing good Christlike deeds at Christmas time through the example of St. Nicholas. Just my two cents.

Fundies do NOT look to the saints for guidance, assistance, etc. Those are just pagan gods/goddesses promoted by the catholic church, which, as we all know is the Whore of Babylon. Wowza I forget how harsh the fundie talk can be when I see it in print. I hear it in my head all the time, but on the page it seems particularly rough . . .

[patsymae]

Last week I bought several Christmas presents from a young Amish boy whose family had set him and his younger brothers up at the side of the road which was very clearly travelled by tourists.

One was a beautiful, and plain, birdhouse that when we bought it he told us he had made by himself. We were just going to give him money but he insisted on showing us how the doors worked, and checking it again to make sure that it worked and he wasn't seeing us anything (or maybe we're just naive, but he was too young and too pleased to be totally cynical.

[wild little fox]

Fundies do NOT look to the saints for guidance, assistance, etc. Those are just pagan gods/goddesses promoted by the catholic church, which, as we all know is the Whore of Babylon. Wowza I forget how harsh the fundie talk can be when I see it in print. I hear it in my head all the time, but on the page it seems particularly rough . . .

ITA.

I was thinking aloud :) about how mainstream could approach Santa. I would think it is what I would do if I were a parent. Even as a pagan I still believe in the goodness of Christmas and have a deep admiration of Jesus, although I doubt he was the son of god, but a man influenced by Buddhism.

My mother is an exCatholic with the whole "It's PAGAN so it is of the Devil" thing going, although it has mellowed as she has grown children now and does not have to train up.

[pixydust]

I don't do Santa with my kids because I can't bring myself to lie to them (I don't have a problem with other people doing Santa, really, your kids....not my issue), but we do Christmas up in a big way....big tree, lots of ornaments, wreath on the door, new jammies on Christmas Eve and gifts and special Christmas breakfast in the morning. Most years there are lots of family get togethers (we are only going to my MIL's house tomorrow evening, cutting it back a bit this year). We do it all with no Jesus, and Santa is a cool legend. Christmas is about family in our house, and that is it.

As a fundie lite kid, we did have a tree, with Jesus based ornaments (and candy canes....upside down "J" for Jesus!) and gifts.....and a Jesus birthday cake in the evening :roll: it had candles on it, and said "Happy Birthday Jesus!", the youngest kid got to blow out the candles (but my mom makes really good chocolate cake, so it's all good). Even then I knew that we were nuts, and I never told my friends (who went to our church) about the cake, ever!

Mary, I think that it is normal to mourn what you didn't have and what you don't have now (normal family, etc). I still sometimes remember something from my childhood that we didn't do/did do that different and I let myself be a little sad, get pissed at my moms ex-husband (he's dead now, thankfully) then I make myself move on.

As for Ellie....she doesn't need anything this year, but her Auntie Mary. I do understand wanting to get her something. Do you think that you could put away $.50 a week this coming year? If you can, 2 weeks before next Christmas you will have $25 to buy her a toy (and that is plenty, believe me, I have 3 kids. With that much money you can buy her a great Melissa and Doug wooden toy that will last).

I know that you feel alone, but please remember, there are people who care about you. If you need someone to talk to, PM me. I'll give you my email, or if you aren't comfortable with that but want ot talk, we can PM here.

[Dysfundamental]

We were never told that Santa was a real entity, but that he was a symbol of the spirit of Christmas and that it was fun to play the Santa game, like any other pretend game. My parents were very left-wing "liberation theology" Catholics and my mum had an undergrad degree in psychology, which I think meant she knew just enough to be dangerous.

To be honest, I don't even know if my parents thought Jesus was a divine being, or simply a great teacher. My mum died when I was young, and though my father was very observant and active in his church, we never talked theology. His mum was a Unitarian and her church was very focused on humans' responsibility to do good in this world.

Anyway, my point is that there are lots of mainline-denomination Christians who don't do Santa, or who do it as an acknowledged game. My parents were also very fond of the famous "Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus" editorial, and I still find it really touching myself.

Best to you, and thank you so much for your writing. I have learned so much from your work.

[JeanneD]

I'm not sure they have a Christmas tree. We saw one in the VSE about Josie's premature birth and the family moving to Little Rock. However, in that episode, for that Christmas Day, they were in a donated house that had already been decorated by the family that lived in it. I've never seen a Christmas Tree in the TTH.

As far as Santa movies being painful - it's not the movies that cause me pain. It's the joy I see other people experiencing and remembering how we didn't have that joy at Christmas time--- that causes me pain. Not having my family, as twisted and sick as some member are, at Christas--- painful. Just knowing that our normal, American childhood was sacrificed for the whim of a single, self-appointed leader ---that hurts.

Mostly, I suppose, I'm just hurt that I haven't done more to put myself in a better situation this Christmas. When I left, I swore that, by now, I'd be this self-reliant superwoman and I'm not.

Santa just seems like a nice idea to me.

For what it's worth, I am consistently letting myself down in this department as well. I'd love to be self-reliant and independent, but in reality, we are made for community and human relationships. When those given relationships (parents, siblings, etc) are disasteriffic train wrecks, it hurts. This time of year hurts more than other times. *hugs* I don't have any words of wisdom, save that winter turns to spring every year. It gets better.

[patsymae]

"Mostly, I suppose, I'm just hurt that I haven't done more to put myself in a better situation this Christmas. When I left, I swore that, by now, I'd be this self-reliant superwoman and I'm not. "

You have put yourself in a better situation this Christmas just by reaching out.

It does take time. PM me if you want.

[chaotic life]

I was raised Fundie lite. We had a tree and a TON of presents because my secular Jewish grandparents provided everything so we still had a magical Christmas. If my parents had been required to provide and pay for Christmas, we wouldn't have had that either.

We were NOT allowed to have Santa. When I grew up, I was big into Christmas but didn't want to lie to my kids by doing Santa either. Four years ago, I overheard two of my young school children having a discussion about even though mommy and daddy said Santa wasn't real, they just KNEW he was.....because every year the presents and stockings came anyway.

I quit fighting Santa at that point but didn't intentionally do it. I figured I wouldn't LIE to them, but I wouldn't aggressively ruin their fun for them.

Tonight, we set out cookies and milk AND carrots for the reindeer. I waved the white flag. I just don't care what the implications may or may not be. I don't see Santa as evil and I'm okay with letting my children be happy and simply enjoy Christmas.

I cannot give Santa back to my older kid. However, they did have amazing Christmas celebrations even without Santa.

I think there's a big difference between Santa or not and what you do with Christmas. No matter what you tell yourself, denying your children the rituals of Christmas especially as a Christian family is miserly. You don't have to have the same rituals and traditions as other people, but children NEED rituals and traditions. It's alot of what makes us humans.

[chaotic life]

Ruth, there's something I have embraced for years in my healing from my abuse and my fundie childhood. I cannot change the past that was given to me. I can only choose my own future. In every way that my parents were abusive and arrogant, I have vowed to change how I am a mother. In every way they negated me and didn't love me, I have slowly worked to teach myself to love myself and to take care of ME and assign value to ME that they refused to give my entire childhood. It's not always easy but it reminds me to seek mprovement and to do it different than what I was given.

[wild little fox]

I was raised Fundie lite. We had a tree and a TON of presents because my secular Jewish grandparents provided everything so we still had a magical Christmas. If my parents had been required to provide and pay for Christmas, we wouldn't have had that either.

We were NOT allowed to have Santa. When I grew up, I was big into Christmas but didn't want to lie to my kids by doing Santa either. Four years ago, I overheard two of my young school children having a discussion about even though mommy and daddy said Santa wasn't real, they just KNEW he was.....because every year the presents and stockings came anyway.

I quit fighting Santa at that point but didn't intentionally do it. I figured I wouldn't LIE to them, but I wouldn't aggressively ruin their fun for them.

Tonight, we set out cookies and milk AND carrots for the reindeer. I waved the white flag. I just don't care what the implications may or may not be. I don't see Santa as evil and I'm okay with letting my children be happy and simply enjoy Christmas.

I cannot give Santa back to my older kid. However, they did have amazing Christmas celebrations even without Santa.

I think there's a big difference between Santa or not and what you do with Christmas. No matter what you tell yourself, denying your children the rituals of Christmas especially as a Christian family is miserly. You don't have to have the same rituals and traditions as other people, but children NEED rituals and traditions. It's alot of what makes us humans.

I think the reason why cults and cult-like beliefs strip away traditions is another way to take away our humanity.

[FeministShrew]

Santa was the most wonderful thing about Christmas to me as a child. Santa seemed much more real & believable to me than the nativity story.

When my kids were growing up we really got into the Santa thing - I'd even go outside with a red light (Rudolph's nose) & sleigh bells outside their window while their dad read them the Christmas story & "The Night Before Christmas." Even though they're 19 & 16 I still put presents from Santa under the tree on Christmas morning & they still humor me!

My fundie/fundie-lite ex-brother-in-law didn't do Santa with his kids (same ages as mine) & made the mistake of trying to tell my kids Santa didn't exist when they were still really young. I told him if he wanted to suck the fun, joy & magic out of his kids lives that was his decision, but shut up around mine. They were the only family I knew who didn't do Santa. They did have a tree though.

Now that I'm agnostic (leaning toward atheist), I've dumped the religious Christmas & kept the magic. Santa & Mrs. Claus decorations inside & out, 2 trees, but no nativity scenes this year.

Hugs to you, & remember it's never to late to create new Christmas traditions for yourself. You're never too old for the magic!

[shedemei]

I may get snarked at for this, but I don't see how an intellectually honest fundies could *not* reject Christmas and Easter as they are holidays of pagan origin that were incorporated into Christianity.

[PennySycamore]

My husband did want to do Santa because he thought Santa took away from Jesus, but the kids learned about Santa anyway form their four grandparents.

I love the Skepdic's Dictionary page on Santa: http://www.skepdic.com/santa.html